Oled Black crush

[Love4sound]

Seems fine as long as black is perfect black. Use the pure black slide on YouTube to confirm that.

Ok any such slide available for HDR?

 

[Marakk]

Ok any such slide available for HDR?

Yes! Avsforum has a thread on it, but as I said, I haven't yet used them. I'm sticking to default on HDR and DV for now. I'll test them next weekend.

 

[Love4sound]

Yes! Avsforum has a thread on it, but as I said, I haven't yet used them. I'm sticking to default on HDR and DV for now. I'll test them next weekend.

Ok check and share the link please

 

[pingpong]

Oh boy...oh boy...breathe in, breathe out...here we go.

To first treat a heart disease, we must know how the heart works. What is this mysterious black level setting? Didn't I say brightness is actually the black level setting? Then what is this? Marakk is a liar!

No no...just listen. This black level setting is actually the data level setting. So 8-bit images have 256 levels in each channel; 10-bit has 1024 levels.

I'll focus on SDR for now. Now videos and displays used not the full bandwidth of 8-bit either; they used 16-235, which is also called limited or video data levels. 0-255 is the full setting. Why 16-235? Google and read the evolution of displays. Modern displays don't have this limitation though.

So coming to LG OLEDs, the high setting is not high black, but full data level, and the low setting is the limited data levels setting. Which is the correct one? Depends on the how the signal is being sent to the display. You need match them. If streaming device or PC is sending a full signal, then the TV also needs to be at the full setting, and vice versa.

Now what happens if there's a mismatch? If the signal is 0-255 but the TV is set to 16-235, which is low, then the 0-15 levels are not being displayed, leading to those details being lost. On the other hand, if 16-235 signal is display on high, 0-255, then what should be black in the limited signal, 16, is no longer black as the TV is set to display 0 as black, and what you get is raised gamma. So you need to align the input and the TV setting. That is all. This setting will have no impact on sharpness. If you're seeing that, it's your eyes deceiving you because of change in gamma. Do note, white details are also incorrectly displayed, but since those aren't that perceptible, it has been termed as black level setting by LG.

Now coming to the OP's example, what I can see is when the black level is set to high, then blacks aren't black and gamma is raised, which means the input signal is limited or video level. Low is the correct value here. The extra details you're seeing by raising blacks, the director and colorist don't want you to see them if there's no black crush.

Now black crush is a whole another topic. This setting has nothing to do with black crush, even if it leads to black crush when there's a mismatch in one case. All you need to do is match it with input.

What is black crush? Basically if the TV doesn't track gamma correctly and the near black values are darker than they should be. If you check Rtings, Flatpanelshd or avforums reviews of C9, as they give pre-calibration results too, you'll see that C9 is actually tracking gamma of lower values incredibly accurately. The errors are actually in the higher range.

Now how to set up your OLED display and ensure black crush isn't there? Again, simple, but do it step-by-step. First, ensure the correct data level setting is being used. It's a headache only if you're using external devices. Without setting that correctly, it doesn't make any sense because you'll be butchering other settings to get it right. After that, use a black slide to accurately set the actual black level setting, brightness, which can vary for each panel in OLEDs. For example, 52 is the right one for me, but if Love4sound is setting his accurately, then 49 for him. This can also change after a few hundred hours as OLED panels increase in brightness as the Rtings' test shows.

Anyway, next step is to use this calibration slide:

What should you see here in an absolutely dark room? 16 will be black and we have set that accurately earlier. 17 should be barely visible. If there's black crush, 17 will be black, even 18 at times. Now be warned, that 17 will be less visible in 2.4 gamma and slightly more visible in 2.2 gamma. Btw, considering Love4sound likes the higher gamma image, I'll suggest that he uses 2.2 gamma instead of 2.4 or BT.1886, and even experiment with 1.9 if he so desires.

Coming back, if 17 is indeed crushed in your set, how to correct it? Please don't shift the brightness, true black level setting, as that will raise blacks and the incorrect one will mean black is no longer black, and yes, you can set the black to not be black in OLEDs too. Infact, you can raise if pretty high if you want. What you want to do to correct it is to go into white balance, change to 22 points method, and then raise 2.5 IRE by a few points till you can make out 17 is actually being displayed, even if quite dark in 2.4, as it should be as it's just one level above black. It should be visible only on looking closely, and that too in a perfectly dark room. This will ensure that your blacks remain black but you have the shadow details that should be there.

If you want to know more in depth about this slide and mode, read this. There's a manual you can download too: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-...ay-mp4-calibration.html#/topics/948496?page=1

Coming to HDR, that's a whole another ball game, especially as tone mapping is needed and OLEDs can't hit 1000nits to make that redundant for content mastered at 1000 nits. However, there are slides for that too, but I haven't tested them just yet, so I can't recommended which ones to use just now. Maybe I'll get to that on the next weekend.

Peace out.

Welcome back after a short break

 

[Marakk]

Welcome back after a short break

Lol...thanks! I was raring to go. Good thing is that I managed to write so much without even a single harsh remark. Good, informative comeback.

 

[pingpong]

Lol...thanks! I was raring to go. Good thing is that I managed to write so much without even a single harsh remark. Good, informative comeback.

Yes, no harsh. I(we) want more from you. So, continue in the same route. Carry on.....

 

[Marakk]

I noticed a thin white line in all four corners at the end of OA trailer in Netflix. Also the same I have noticed when playing one black screen test in YouTube. Can some C9 owner play the OA season one trailer at Dark room and see in this seen if the same exists ?

View attachment 42718View attachment 42719

Just saw Margin Call on Netflix. Great flick. Good cinematography with judicious use of blacks. Great to watch on an OLED. Oh, I forgot to mention, if content mastered at 2.4 gamma is viewed at higher gamma ratios, it can show more noise and posterization. Anyway, main point was that this movie also had white lines on bottom and top. They were more visible in some scenes, but not in others. Just a content thing.

 

[Love4sound]

I think I should update the thread.so it’s been 8 months since I started the thread and watched all types of contents. It took me so much time to get to the right settings. So the big question is if black crush is something to worry in Oled? well I don’t think so unless you compare it side by side with a very bright qled tv. Even the scene from MIB looks better now and I can see the guy standing behind but yeah slightly it’s crushed but not that something you will notice. I just get mesmerised looking at the display. Oled is King of all displays indeed. Not being a fan boy here but it’s just how good Oled is.

 

[shield99]

I think I should update the thread.so it’s been 8 months since I started the thread and watched all types of contents. It took me so much time to get to the right settings. So the big question is if black crush is something to worry in Oled? well I don’t think so unless you compare it side by side with a very bright qled tv. Even the scene from MIB looks better now and I can see the guy standing behind but yeah slightly it’s crushed but not that something you will notice. I just get mesmerised looking at the display. Oled is King of all displays indeed. Not being a fan boy here but it’s just how good Oled is.

I've only had this issue with one game (A lil older) and had to struggle a lot as i switched TV mid game.
Haven't watched a lot of OTT or Offline content and hence can't comment here.

If I am getting this right, in your test case, you increased the brightness to 51 to get it right, is it?

 

[Love4sound]

I've only had this issue with one game (A lil older) and had to struggle a lot as i switched TV mid game.
Haven't watched a lot of OTT or Offline content and hence can't comment here.

If I am getting this right, in your test case, you increased the brightness to 51 to get it right, is it?

I used the calibration slide from you tube to set brightness. It’s in 50 for SDR and 49 for HDR

 

[Love4sound]

@vikrantxtrad tagging u so I can check during ur free time understand m not a biased fan boy

 

[vikrantxtrad]

@vikrantxtrad tagging u so I can check during ur free time understand m not a biased fan boy

Yes definitely black crush is evident on my OLED.
PS - I don't hate you but you do have tilt toward OLED, accept it man. No hate.

 

[Love4sound]

Yes definitely black crush is evident on my OLED.
PS - I don't hate you but you do have tilt toward OLED, accept it man. No hate.

Yeah obviously I am open about that I like Oled the most. But I try to speak facts alone. And in comparisons I am fairly talking only about the positives of Oled and it’s advantages over qled which is accepted by most

 

[vikrantxtrad]

Yeah obviously I am open about that I like Oled the most. But I try to speak facts alone.

I hate black crush. Ruins horror movies for me.

 

[Love4sound]

I hate black crush. Ruins horror movies for me.

You have no idea of the level of details qled crushes to maintain blacks. In both technology u need to sacrifice certain things and this is where preference comes in place to make the final choice. I go Oled and u go qled

 

[vikrantxtrad]

You have no idea of the level of details qled crushes to maintain blacks. In both technology u need to sacrifice certain things and this is where preference comes in place to make the final choice. I go Oled and u go qled

Okay peace. But can you share the exact 4k demo video? I will see for myself.

 

[Love4sound]

Okay peace. But can you share the exact 4k demo video? I will see for myself.

These are from reviews so don’t exactly have the link but I can get those videos for u so please give some time for me to search . And also u need to know one more important factor. You are using vivid mode and all the reviewers use cinema mode. So u may see the details as vivid mode is bright. The cinema mode tries to achieve d65 reference.The other FM totally didn’t get this point and totally misunderstood and insults me which I choose to ignore. You Atleast please try to understand the point I am making

 

[vikrantxtrad]

These are from reviews so don’t exactly have the link but I can get those videos for u so please give some time for me to search . And also u need to know one more important factor. You are using vivid mode and all the reviewers use cinema mode. So u may see the details as vivid mode is bright. The cinema mode tries to achieve d65 reference.The other FM totally didn’t get this point and totally misunderstood and insults me which I choose to ignore. You Atleast please try to understand the point I am making

My vivid mode isn't factory's vivid more. It's whites are calibrated, saturation/ contrast everything is altered. My reason for keeping it on vivid is because I get 150-200 more nits in brightness. Plus Dolby Vision like content isn't vivid as such, it's bright and dark, same for hdr10+

 

[Love4sound]

My vivid mode isn't factory's vivid more. It's whites are calibrated, saturation/ contrast everything is altered. My reason for keeping it on vivid is because I get 150-200 more nits in brightness. Plus Dolby Vision like content isn't vivid as such, it's bright and dark, same for hdr10+

Even if u try modify the settings you will loose accuracy. Each mode has different calibration in colours, brightness, gamma and temperature. Only the cinema mode gets u some way close to accuracy. Hope u read the article I shared regarding picture presets. The reason for many to not like cinema mode is all are used to inaccurate colours and blueish temperature with the previous gen tvs before 4k and HDR. This applies for me as well but after getting c9 it changed. I started with vivid and standard mode as that was the mode I used in Sony for 5 years. But after few hours my eyes started to pick the inaccurate picture and I slowly moved to cinema mode

 

[vikrantxtrad]

Even if u try modify the settings you will loose accuracy. Each mode has different calibration in colours, brightness, gamma and temperature. Only the cinema mode gets u some way close to accuracy. Hope u read the article I shared regarding picture presets. The reason for many to not like cinema mode is all are used to inaccurate colours and blueish temperature with the previous gen tvs before 4k and HDR. This applies for me as well but after getting c9 it changed. I started with vivid and standard mode as that was the mode I used in Sony for 5 years. But after few hours my eyes started to pick the inaccurate picture and I slowly moved to cinema mode

Yeah but I am really running for most accurate picture quality. I have used Samsung's Amoled from galaxy S2 generation and they all were inaccurate but I loved it. But I get your point. I am okay with slightly boosted look as long as the faces don't look redish.