PSB Alpha sounding very bright!

[Moni]

Okay guys... I am from Pakistan and this is my first post here at Hifivision but I have been an occasional reader for quite some time now.

First a bit of history. I am surely not an audiophile and the setup in question is my first jump to a genuine hifi audiophile equipment. I had some htib in the past and after its amp died, I added a pioneer AVR (VSX-516-K) which worked for me almost five years. My main usage of the system is movie watching and occasional music. When the pioneer AVR started dyeing I decided to upgrade the whole sound system. In Pakistan there not so many places where we can actually audition a lot of AV equipment so most of the times my decision depends upon the reviews and forums I read online.

So I bought a Denon AVR-X500. Next step was speakers. Now PSB has a very good dealer here in Lahore and I have heard only but good things about these speakers. Also the prices are relatively good as compared to other brands. So I bought PSB Alpha B1 and Alpha C1 for fronts and center and a Subseries 1 subwoofer. The surrounds are Panasonic leftover satellite speakers from the previous HTiB I owned. My room size is about 12'X12'X10' (LxWXH). All of my media is 1080P MKV either with DTS or DTS-HD audio connected through an hdmi out on an nvidia GT630.

My problem is that I find the Alphas sound too harsh or bright on moderately high volumes and I lost the mid range details if I lower the volume. So much so that these sound too fatiguing. I have tried these with and without the surrounds and the result is same.I am finding it really hard to enjoy. The Alphas B1 sounded quite good when I listened to them in the showroom from where I bought these but I am unable to get them sound right at home. Just FYI, these were hooked up to a pioneer when I auditioned them in the showroom but I was led to believe that Denon is more warm sounding than pioneer.

Please can anyone help me understand what could be the problem.

Can there be a placement issue?
Is my AVR a culprit?
Do the speakers need to break in for a specific period of time?
Can the speaker wire be an issue? (Right now its 16 Guage but since the room size is very small I am sticking with it)
Can it be source material?
I ever tried to use the tone control on the AVR to no use.
Or is it probably only my imagination?

Please any or all help would be highly appreciated.

 

[pradeepkamat]

I am using PSB Alpha B1 speakers & Sub.125 with Marantz AVR NR1402. For centre & surrounds I am using left overs from Logitech Z-5500.
I am using the system for last 1 year and sounds great. Not very bright nor dull.

Have you run the Audissey setup with calibrating microphone? If not then pl. do it.

I hope this will help you.

 

[Moni]

Hey pradeepkamat.. Thank you for your reply.

Unfortunately Denon AVR-X500 is the bottom of the line receiver without audyssey so I am helpless here. However, I think auto calibration only tries to equalize sound across all speakers and may not fine tune the frequency response of the speakers. My previous AVR pioneer had auto MCACC calibration which I never actually liked to my taste and also ended up playing it without.

 

[hydra]

... My room size is about 12'X12'X10' (LxWXH). ...

Assuming you're using lossless files/CDs, the room dimensions are most likely the problem. A perfectly square room tends to sound bad, especially in terms of boomy bass that kills the music.

People usually get around a square room having the speakers placed so their backs are toward a corner of the room, either symmetrically, or asymmetrically. Please see post #5 in this thread for a illustration.

Some room treatment in addition, can help. Absorbent material in the corners (even pillows will do) will help tame the boom somewhat. Proper corner bass traps (DIY or off-the-shelf) will help a lot.

Try not to sit anywhere close to any of the corners. That's where the boom will be the worst.

Since you have a subwoofer, you'll need to work on placement of the subwoofer. I don't know much about this, but there's a wealth of information about this on the forum, if you can search.

Leaving a door (and windows if any) open might help a bit. Do try this.

 

[Moni]

Okay my problem is not the boominess as I have been turning off the sub woofer to check the sound on alphas. My ptoblem is harshness/brighness in sound... I.e. too much treble.

So if you think my room dimensions are participating in creating that harshness in sound than I can try and audition the speakers in a different room.

 

[koushik]

Moni,

Just do one thing. Toe-in your to a great extent and form a very small equilateral triangle with the 2 speakers and yourself. Make it very cosy. Say distance between you and the speakers is 4ft approx.
Now listen to a music which sounded too bright. Fix volume control to that position where you know they DOES NOT sound bright.

Let me know how you liked/disliked the quality.

 

[koushik]

Isosceles triangle will also do you being the vertex.

 

[ranjeetrain]

Welcome to HFV Moni.

Can there be a placement issue?

Can be, but not likely in this case. Placement shouldn't mess that badly with those frequencies. In any case, you must experiment with the positioning yourself. Each room is different. So long as your basic positioning is good, tweaking from there is only a matter of trial and error.

"Is my AVR a culprit? "Could be. No AVR is perfect. All of them have some signature. It is quite possible that your+speaker matching is somewhat poor.

"Do the speakers need to break in for a specific period of time? "Yes they do. After some berak in (50-100) hours, most speakers improve. Some improve a little some improve a lot. But speakers cones do get linear with use.

"Can the speaker wire be an issue? (Right now its 16 Guage but since the room size is very small I am sticking with it)"Could be, but at this price point don't bother playing with wires. Wires can affect the performance but at this level your emphasis should be to get things right with amp+speaker matching. At this level don't even bother changing cables (so long as you are using any decent cable). What gauge wire you will need depends on the length of the run. Consult Wikipedia to find out proper gauge to buy. There are tons of decent cables that perform without breaking the bank. Buy any and work on amp+speaker+positioning to find a solution.

"Can it be source material?" Can be. But you can't change the source material. You can't watch only the movies with not-so-bright soundtrack. The solution lies in setting your gear right and accept the soundtrack quality of the source material for what they are; for no setup howsoever expensive can compensate for bad source material.

"I ever tried to use the tone control on the AVR to no use. "Something wrong here. Tone controls don't work? Do you have the Tone Control settings "defeated". Please check if that's the case. If tone controls on your AVRs don't work, it's a faulty unit, ask for a replacement.

"Or is it probably only my imagination?"Shouldn't be. You are quite elaborate in your approach. I won't think you could be imagining.

Hope this helps. All the best.

 

[magma]

Sir

These may be the reasons

1. You have a matured taste
In which case the alphas will always be bright
2. The room you heard them earlier had acoustic work done
So your higher frequencies seemed rolled off
You can try and get some acoustic work done
But then selling these and buying warmer speakers may cost the same

Otherwise get a real warm amp like a nad

 

[keith_correa]

My 2 cents worth - it's your AVR. Try them with a different amp/AVR.

 

[techboy]

Just get acoustic panels on the walls. Will make all the difference.

 

[vijwilso]

Sir

These may be the reasons

1. You have a matured taste
In which case the alphas will always be bright

Very true statement

 

[Moni]

My 2 cents worth - it's your AVR. Try them with a different amp/AVR.

Any suggestions. Again I was led to believe that Denon is neutral or warm sounding. Should I try a NAD?

Moni,

Just do one thing. Toe-in your to a great extent and form a very small equilateral triangle with the 2 speakers and yourself. Make it very cosy. Say distance between you and the speakers is 4ft approx.
Now listen to a music which sounded too bright. Fix volume control to that position where you know they DOES NOT sound bright.

Let me know how you liked/disliked the quality.

Doesn't toe-in will increase the high frequency response?

Welcome to HFV Moni.



Can be, but not likely in this case. Placement shouldn't mess that badly with those frequencies. In any case, you must experiment with the positioning yourself. Each room is different. So long as your basic positioning is good, tweaking from there is only a matter of trial and error.

See following illustration for the room settings and let me know if I can improve the placements somehow.

"Is my AVR a culprit? "Could be. No AVR is perfect. All of them have some signature. It is quite possible that your+speaker matching is somewhat poor.

Hmmm... I will have to ask somebody to lend me their AVR so that I can test the SQ in my room. It will be of no use if I take these back to the dealer and ask him to play with his AVR. His room will always be different.

"Do the speakers need to break in for a specific period of time? "Yes they do. After some berak in (50-100) hours, most speakers improve. Some improve a little some improve a lot. But speakers cones do get linear with use.

Okay so if that's the case, maybe some one on this forum who owns Alphas can let me know how much time these take to properly break in.

"Can the speaker wire be an issue? (Right now its 16 Guage but since the room size is very small I am sticking with it)"Could be, but at this price point don't bother playing with wires. Wires can affect the performance but at this level your emphasis should be to get things right with amp+speaker matching. At this level don't even bother changing cables (so long as you are using any decent cable). What gauge wire you will need depends on the length of the run. Consult Wikipedia to find out proper gauge to buy. There are tons of decent cables that perform without breaking the bank. Buy any and work on amp+speaker+positioning to find a solution.

I can get the unbranded wire pretty cheap so its not going to break my bank. I think I should change the wires anyway just to be sure. What do you think?

"Can it be source material?" Can be. But you can't change the source material. You can't watch only the movies with not-so-bright soundtrack. The solution lies in setting your gear right and accept the soundtrack quality of the source material for what they are; for no setup howsoever expensive can compensate for bad source material.

Yeah understood!

"I ever tried to use the tone control on the AVR to no use. "Something wrong here. Tone controls don't work? Do you have the Tone Control settings "defeated". Please check if that's the case. If tone controls on your AVRs don't work, it's a faulty unit, ask for a replacement.

No it works perfectly and the settings do change the sound a bit. But I am unable to get it to my liking. Also it is disabled when playing DTS-HD MA trakcs.

"Or is it probably only my imagination?"Shouldn't be. You are quite elaborate in your approach. I won't think you could be imagining.

Hope this helps. All the best.

Thank you a lot for all the detailed answers and trying to help with this.

Sir

These may be the reasons

1. You have a matured taste
In which case the alphas will always be bright
2. The room you heard them earlier had acoustic work done
So your higher frequencies seemed rolled off
You can try and get some acoustic work done
But then selling these and buying warmer speakers may cost the same

Otherwise get a real warm amp like a nad

Which NAD receiver you would suggest I should try. I only want 5 channel. And any idea about price?

Just get acoustic panels on the walls. Will make all the difference.

Acoustic panels? Can you please advise further about these.

 

[Moni]

Okay I replied to this thread this morning and I was told that my post is hold for review by a moderator.

 

[soulforged]

The speakers, if new, would definitely need to break in. Does the dealer have a demo setup of the same speaker? If so, you can take your AVR over and listen to his setup...assuming the demo speakers are fully broken in, this would give you some idea of where the issue maybe. If they sound bright there as well, then the AVR and speakers don't really match up...if they sound good with some other amp/avr at your dealer place, this would reconfirm it. If they sound great with your AVR there...then you might want to look at your source and room treatment...

 

[Moni]

Okay I have been doing some kind of experimentation over the weekend and there are few things I analyzed.

I basically turned off my subwoofer and let the speakers run full range and I sort of liked the sound. The reason for doing so is that this is how the showroom guy played the Alpha B1s in his room. So right now I am thinking about two possibilities. Maybe the subwoofer either because of placement or tuning issue is too overwhelming for the mid range produced by the alphas and I have to pump up the volume to listen to that mid range which ultimately results in the HF to be pumped up too.

Also I now think that my Panasonic surrounds doesn't really match with the fronts and more of a reason for overly bright sound. I know I said in my original post that I listened to the system with or without the surrounds without finding any difference in output but that was with subwoofer turned on. With subwoofer turned off, the fronts sound better, even some of the bass is there but with action scenes and sound effects I felt that surrounds sound very sharp and led me believe that the whole system sounds bright.

So here come some new questions.

1. Is the subwoofer too big for my room? Its an 8" front firing driver powered by 110W continuous RMS.
2. How can I fine tune the subwoofer placement and or levels?
3. Should I change my surround speakers? Since my AVR doesn't have an EQ settings.
4. How about if I change the height of the fronts to above ear level?
5. My speakers were all set to small and the cross over at 80hz for all 5 speakers. Should I change something here?

At the end of the day, I think I might get used to the alphas if I will play them in stereo mode but maybe for the proper surround I would either need to have matching surrounds or a high performance subwoofer or both. Or maybe I should sell everything and start reading books or play with my kids instead or spend some time with my wife possibilities are endless

 

[jagdish_p]

. Or maybe I should sell everything and start reading books or play with my kids instead or spend some time with my wife possibilities are endless

I like that

Integrating the sub with the fronts is important. Try setting the sub at different volume levels also try the crossovers at 80 and 120 hz.

Breaking in may not improve a lot but in any case why don't you try running the speakers for 50 hours playing music of different genres. You will see max improvement in 50 hours though 100 is recommended.
Better still take the family out on a short holiday while the speakers are being broken in

 

[magma]

. Or maybe I should sell everything and start reading books or play with my kids instead or spend some time with my wife possibilities are endless

excellent

i have been doing this for over a year now!

my entire setup has shifted to my office
i am happy