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Query on AVR load

rpmahale

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I am bit in different situation . I have two avr at home Denon AVR 2113 ( 95 W*2 ) and Marantz NR 1608 (50W*2- with Dolby Atmos/DTS X ). I also have Pioneer BDP 450 Blu Ray player with dual HDMI out put. I have decided to connect both the AVR to Blu Ray player via dual HDMI out . Also plan to connect LCR speakers to Denon and surround back & front hight ( Atmos) to Marantz avr. I have calibrated both the AVR independently with same set of speakers and have almost same calibration result. HDMI out of Denon AVR will be connected to display unit. Now to which AVR shall I connect subwoofer. Denon or Marantz. With Marantz, subwoofer is more controlled and impactful . Which precaution shall I need to take while making such arrangement . I may connect FL, FR, SL,SR on Denon and C, Atmos L, Atmos R on Marantz. Both AVR will run simultaneously but will power different set of speakers from 5.1.2 mode. Please share thoughts....
 
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raghupb

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Hmmm ...
How does this work? It is the first I've heard of it. One source, 2 AVRs.
I would guess the sub will be connected to the AVR doing the calibration?
And the second AVR will power height speakers.

Many struggle with one AVR and fewer speakers (moi).
You are attempting something out of the ordinary.
Let us know your observations.

Cheers,
Raghu
 

reachkalyan.kr

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I am bit in different situation . I have two avr at home Denon AVR 2113 ( 95 W*2 ) and Marantz NR 1608 (50W*2- with Dolby Atmos/DTS X ). I also have Pioneer BDP 450 Blu Ray player with dual HDMI out put. I have decided to connect both the AVR to Blu Ray player via dual HDMI out . Also plan to connect LCR speakers to Denon and surround back & front hight ( Atmos) to Marantz avr. I have calibrated both the AVR independently with same set of speakers and have almost same calibration result. HDMI out of Denon AVR will be connected to display unit. Now to which AVR shall I connect subwoofer. Denon or Marantz. With Marantz, subwoofer is more controlled and impactful . Which precaution shall I need to take while making such arrangement . I may connect FL, FR, SL,SR on Denon and C, Atmos L, Atmos R on Marantz. Both AVR will run simultaneously but will power different set of speakers from 5.1.2 mode. Please share thoughts....
You will have a problem while increasing and decreasing the volume .if room calibration not the concern may be u can try it out.would suggest keep fixed volume in both avr and try changing the volume control at your source.
One more option I would suggest is connect front Preout of your Marantz to Denon AVR to RCA input and select direct mode in Denon so that your front channels will be powered by Denon and centre will be powered by Marantz itself. Moreover if you opt for the way u mention in your post Atmos may not be perfect as Denon is not Atmos one.
atb
 
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Amarendra

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I am bit in different situation . I have two avr at home Denon AVR 2113 ( 95 W*2 ) and Marantz NR 1608 (50W*2- with Dolby Atmos/DTS X ). I also have Pioneer BDP 450 Blu Ray player with dual HDMI out put. I have decided to connect both the AVR to Blu Ray player via dual HDMI out . Also plan to connect LCR speakers to Denon and surround back & front hight ( Atmos) to Marantz avr. I have calibrated both the AVR independently with same set of speakers and have almost same calibration result. HDMI out of Denon AVR will be connected to display unit. Now to which AVR shall I connect subwoofer. Denon or Marantz. With Marantz, subwoofer is more controlled and impactful . Which precaution shall I need to take while making such arrangement . I may connect FL, FR, SL,SR on Denon and C, Atmos L, Atmos R on Marantz. Both AVR will run simultaneously but will power different set of speakers from 5.1.2 mode. Please share thoughts....
What will you set the AVR configuration as - for example you will have to tell the AVR what speakers are connected. Lets say you configure your Denon as 2.1 what setting will you apply to the Marantz. Or you will have to keep it as 5.1.2 (lets say) on both ? So both AVRs will be processing the information but giving different outputs. It could be worth trying and you wont know the outcome unless you actually connect and test.
 

rpmahale

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Marantz have pre-out but Denon doesn't have pre-in so connecting Denon as power amplifier is not possible. Both the AVR are independently calibrated and have almost same result. Both AVR will decode audio signal but Denon will decode upto Dolby TruHD and Marantz will decode upto Dolby Atmos. As only Marantz have capacity to decode Dolby Atmos signal, I have to connect Atmos speakers to Marantz only. Now have to decide on basic five channels and subwoofer , which configuration is more working solution .
 

Amarendra

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Marantz have pre-out but Denon doesn't have pre-in so connecting Denon as power amplifier is not possible. Both the AVR are independently calibrated and have almost same result. Both AVR will decode audio signal but Denon will decode upto Dolby TruHD and Marantz will decode upto Dolby Atmos. As only Marantz have capacity to decode Dolby Atmos signal, I have to connect Atmos speakers to Marantz only. Now have to decide on basic five channels and subwoofer , which configuration is more working solution .
You can take the FL FR pre out from Denon and connect to any RCA in on the Denon (lets say CD) but that will allow only 2 channels to be used on the Denon. I used to run the same config with the Denon and Pioneer AVRs.
 

raghupb

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Can an AVR be configured not to have L/R mains at all? Doubt it.
Cheers,
Raghu
 

sandeepmohan

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Many times we have a certain prejudice but unless we try something out the opinion won't change.
Let me be clear. I am open to experimenting but this seems to be a decision gone wrong, in selecting an receiver that had all pre outs available in the first place. Now that you don't have one, this jugaad is the work around. While I am not averse to a jugaad solution, this isn't ideal. You have a high level output going into an input, into two different amplifiers that are likely to sound different, different power and dynamics from each amplifier. All this for the sake of boosting power for the LCR? How do you calibrate this system?

The best results for what you are trying to achieve will be much better and easier with one dedicated power amplifier.
 

Amarendra

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Let me be clear. I am open to experimenting but this seems to be a decision gone wrong, in selecting an receiver that had all pre outs available in the first place. Now that you don't have one, this jugaad is the work around. While I am not averse to a jugaad solution, this isn't ideal. You have a high level output going into an input, into two different amplifiers that are likely to sound different, different power and dynamics from each amplifier. All this for the sake of boosting power for the LCR? How do you calibrate this system?

The best results for what you are trying to achieve will be much better and easier with one dedicated power amplifier.
That's exactly the reason I keep saying that unless you experiment or experience it firsthand you are relying on assumptions/ borrowed knowledge. I have also taken out pre outs straight from the AVR's pre amp board (which doesn't need converters) and compared with the sound using the converters. After experimenting with both I have kept the solution with the converters :)
 
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rpmahale

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It's absolutely risk to connect pre-out of one AVR to Line in of other AVR instead of Pre-in. Signal will pass through two pre amplifier stages. In that case it is necessary to have technical data in hand about pre-out and line in of both AVR so that same can be tally for safe experimental activity. I am just trying to experiment with AVR within safety limits. What @Amarendra did is courage's act and may be required good hands on experience with great technical skills. The act needs to be supervise by equally caliber person. Thanks all FM who share their thoughts and help me. Will share results soon....
 

Amarendra

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It's absolutely risk to connect pre-out of one AVR to Line in of other AVR instead of Pre-in. Signal will pass through two pre amplifier stages. In that case it is necessary to have technical data in hand about pre-out and line in of both AVR so that same can be tally for safe experimental activity. I am just trying to experiment with AVR within safety limits. What @Amarendra did is courage's act and may be required good hands on experience with great technical skills. The act needs to be supervise by equally caliber person. Thanks all FM who share their thoughts and help me. Will share results soon....
Actually it isn't as risky as we have assumed it to be or else people wouldn't be recommending it. I am realizing that the AV world is full of myths which are passed on from forum to forum and member to member :)

Please read the below article on What Hifi which will put your doubts to rest:


The only drawback that is mentioned is that you cant bypass the volume control/ equalizer settings on the receiving amp, however there are ways to by pass that

Here is another one with detailed instructions:

 

sandeepmohan

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That's exactly the reason I keep saying that unless you experiment or experience it firsthand you are relying on assumptions/ borrowed knowledge.
I am not relying on assumptions. I have done these experiments in a simple stereo setup (remember Quadraphonic?). Forget home theater, which is a headache these days, now that HDMI is the defacto standard.

What you are trying to achieve is so much simpler if you have a Blu Ray player or any source that gives you pre outs. I still feel it is a headache when it comes to calibrating the system when you have 3 AV receivers to deal with! I am curious to know how you go about this.

I found it rather difficult to get good balance out of my system by just bi amping the speakers to the point that I gave up.

Let us not forget that all of us here do not have the confidence or the ability to rip apart a 50k AV component, sit and fiddle with their delicate, static prone circuit boards, fry it and then run around crying for help.

Good luck to you.
 

Amarendra

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I am not relying on assumptions. I have done these experiments in a simple stereo setup (remember Quadraphonic?). Forget home theater, which is a headache these days, now that HDMI is the defacto standard.

What you are trying to achieve is so much simpler if you have a Blu Ray player or any source that gives you pre outs. I still feel it is a headache when it comes to calibrating the system when you have 3 AV receivers to deal with! I am curious to know how you go about this.

I found it rather difficult to get good balance out of my system by just bi amping the speakers to the point that I gave up.

Let us not forget that all of us here do not have the confidence or the ability to rip apart a 50k AV component, sit and fiddle with their delicate, static prone circuit boards, fry it and then run around crying for help.

Good luck to you.
True, but calibration is not that difficult. Keep the volume on all secondary amps fixed at lets say 9'o clock and run Audyssey. I haven't honestly done anything beyond that. To be fair, the Denon 2500 H is enough for powering my HT set up. My listening distance is just 10 feet and the speakers are 86db 8 ohm Wharfedales. But there is an additional clarity & scale which I get when I connect external amps which is why I keep it.
If I use the Denon 3500H/ 4500H (with preouts) or higher I would naturally expect the Denon itself to power everything - why would I spend more money otherwise ?
My original plan was to get a AV Processor and connect as many external amps as required. But AV processors are costly not to mention obsolescence which sets in early. The closest and cheapest that you can get to a AV processor is using a PC which has all channel analog outs from the motherboard or soundcard but then you are left at the mercy of the motherboard quality which is not the best. Even external soundcards are available (Asus/ Creative) but none of them have clean reviews. To test this PC set up I had carried a PC and monitor to Norge Audio office. They were very happy to host me and wanted to conduct the experiment themselves. We connected their best amplifiers to the analog outs from the PC and used their speakers. The sound was loud (scale) but it lacked the clarity which an AVR can bring out. However if one is on a budget but still wants to enjoy 5.1, its one of the better ways than buying entry level HTiBs.
BTW, last week I connected a $20 Chinese TDA 7498 amp to my Denon to power FL and FR. Its tested at 68 watts per channel 2 ch driven at 8 ohms. Again ran Audyssey and enjoying it :)
 

rpmahale

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Just a small query , Active subwoofers also have pre-amplifier and power amplifier built in as we have different controls on subwoofer back end like volume/level control , equilizers, phase control etc. We directly connect the subwoofer to sub out of AVR and while calibration keep the sub volume dial half way or 12' O clock position . We can control subwoofer both ways by source level in AVR and Volume level on Subwoofer. Do the secondary AVR/Stereo amplifier ( which act as power amplifier to FL & FR) works in same way if directly connected Pre out of primary avr to line in of secondary avr/amp.
 

Amarendra

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Just a small query , Active subwoofers also have pre-amplifier and power amplifier built in as we have different controls on subwoofer back end like volume/level control , equilizers, phase control etc. We directly connect the subwoofer to sub out of AVR and while calibration keep the sub volume dial half way or 12' O clock position . We can control subwoofer both ways by source level in AVR and Volume level on Subwoofer. Do the secondary AVR/Stereo amplifier ( which act as power amplifier to FL & FR) works in same way if directly connected Pre out of primary avr to line in of secondary avr/amp.
Your logic makes sense and is a very nice analogy but let someone with technical knowledge answer this.
 

rpmahale

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If the solution work out in better ways, most of the FM can use their old AVR/IA to power FL & FR channels for better performance in both mode instead of selling old units .
 

Amarendra

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If the solution work out in better ways, most of the FM can use their old AVR/IA to power FL & FR channels for better performance in both mode instead of selling old units .
Its already working...… whether you use pre outs or converters.
 

sandeepmohan

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True, but calibration is not that difficult. Keep the volume on all secondary amps fixed at lets say 9'o clock and run Audyssey.
How do you figure out a 9'0 clock position on the gain as most amplifiers have electronic volume control? Also; the indicated db setting varies between amplifier.

If I use the Denon 3500H/ 4500H (with preouts) or higher I would naturally expect the Denon itself to power everything - why would I spend more money otherwise ?
Cause that Denon 4500H, or, most receivers for that matter, don't really have the power and dynamic ability for demanding HT content. They hype it up nice and good on those brochures. I can tell you that even the range topping Marantz pales compared to a dedicated power amplifier. In my limited experience with AV receivers, none of them have grunt. Among all, NAD does really well but you loose out on all the bells and whistles.
 

Amarendra

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How do you figure out a 9'0 clock position on the gain as most amplifiers have electronic volume control? Also; the indicated db setting varies between amplifier.



Cause that Denon 4500H, or, most receivers for that matter, don't really have the power and dynamic ability for demanding HT content. They hype it up nice and good on those brochures. I can tell you that even the range topping Marantz pales compared to a dedicated power amplifier. In my limited experience with AV receivers, none of them have grunt. Among all, NAD does really well but you loose out on all the bells and whistles.
In my case both the external amps are analogue amps. There has to be some benchmark level at which the calibration needs to be done. In my case I prefer 9 o clock. Others prefer 10 o clock or even 12 o clock. Whatever the level, it's important that once it is used in calibration, you revert to the same one while listening.
 
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