Query on AVR load

[Amarendra]

Hi,

I have currently added 2 speaker level line out converters to my Denon AVR for LCR channels. The center channel signal goes to a Rotel stereo amp which I have biamped to the center channel speaker (40W+40W) while the LR channel signals go to another Pioneer AVR (110W pc in 2 ch @8 ohms) which I run in pure direct mode. The rear surround speakers and Atmos speakers are connected normally to the Denon.
Normally when a preout signal is taken from the AVR, the amplifier within the AVR gets additional headroom to power the other channels (from what I have read). Does the line out converter also reduce the load on the AVR acting in a similar way as a pre-out ? Request someone with technical knowledge to revert.

Thanks for reading.

 

[reachkalyan.kr]

Afaik it is negligible/less advantage cos you are driving the AVR power amp section to get the line out from external converter.
Imho that converter will be having fixed/variable resistor load and it is simulated as speaker load.
If the AVR itself has pre out without modification the load will get reduced with more juice with some extent.
Out of the discussion but Pioneer LX(original) series had an option to switch of the power amp section completely in settings,but Marantz and Denon does not have that option.
Above opinion differs technically based on how much volume u are driving on your main system with external converter & what kind of converter it is internally(design)
Imho.

 

[Amarendra]

Afaik it is negligible/less advantage cos you are driving the AVR power amp section to get the line out from external converter.
Imho that converter will be having fixed/variable resistor load and it is simulated as speaker load.
If the AVR itself has pre out without modification the load will get reduced with more juice with some extent.
Out of the discussion but Pioneer LX(original) series had an option to switch of the power amp section completely in settings,but Marantz and Denon does not have that option.
Above opinion differs technically based on how much volume u are driving on your main system with external converter & what kind of converter it is internally(design)
Imho.

Thanks ! What you are saying is that the reduction in load on the main AVR is negligible since it is still pushing the amp to drive the speakers (converters). Can I reduce the load further by lowering the gain on the LCR channels in the Denon and increasing the volume on the secondary amps- the Rotel and the Pioneer ?

 

[reachkalyan.kr]

Thanks ! What you are saying is that the reduction in load on the main AVR is negligible since it is still pushing the amp to drive the speakers (converters). Can I reduce the load further by lowering the gain on the LCR channels in the Denon and increasing the volume on the secondary amps- the Rotel and the Pioneer ?

Yes,, to the some extent but imho it will insert more noise/distortion (negligible for normal listener - Not recommended for Audiophile ears)
Some converter itself will be having small preset for adjusting the gain. Pls check once.
Let us see some experts will jump into this discussion.

 

[pantpank]

Thanks ! What you are saying is that the reduction in load on the main AVR is negligible since it is still pushing the amp to drive the speakers (converters). Can I reduce the load further by lowering the gain on the LCR channels in the Denon and increasing the volume on the secondary amps- the Rotel and the Pioneer ?

Hello,
Did you find out a way to reduce the load on main avr?

I have an old hifi stereo amp (Kenwood xd760) lying ideal which am planning to connect with my 5.1 htib onkyo receiver ( Onkyo ht-r380) to power the left and right channel speakers (Pioneer Andrew Jones floorstanders). The Kenwood amplifier has line level inputs(RCA) but the onkyo avr has speaker level output. So i will be buying a speaker level to Rca converter.

I want to reduce the load on my onkyo avr so that the remaining 3 channels ( center and surrounds) get more clean power. Is it possible by this method of using a line level converter?
Also since the onkyo avr doesn't have the audessy and the calibration has to be done manually, what will be the ideal volume level on primary (onkyo)and secondary (Kenwood) amp?

 

[Amarendra]

Hello,
Did you find out a way to reduce the load on main avr?

I have an old hifi stereo amp (Kenwood xd760) lying ideal which am planning to connect with my 5.1 htib onkyo receiver ( Onkyo ht-r380) to power the left and right channel speakers (Pioneer Andrew Jones floorstanders). The Kenwood amplifier has line level inputs(RCA) but the onkyo avr has speaker level output. So i will be buying a speaker level to Rca converter.

I want to reduce the load on my onkyo avr so that the remaining 3 channels ( center and surrounds) get more clean power. Is it possible by this method of using a line level converter?
Also since the onkyo avr doesn't have the audessy and the calibration has to be done manually, what will be the ideal volume level on primary (onkyo)and secondary (Kenwood) amp?

There is no evidence of load reduction in AVR but what you do get is better sounding LR or center channel speaker depending on where you are connecting the amp. If you haven't used a converter in the past do all connections carefully as per manual and keep all volume knobs to min. Then once connections are made, gradually increase the onkyo knob and then just check if any heat is detected on the onkyo or Kenwood or the converter. Then gradually increase volume on the Kenwood till both LR speakers become audible. Again watch for heat or any unwanted interference.
For calibration keep the Kenwood knob or volume level permanently at 9 o clock or 10 o clock position and then do your manual calibration. Hope this helps.

 

[pantpank]

There is no evidence of load reduction in AVR but what you do get is better sounding LR or center channel speaker depending on where you are connecting the amp. If you haven't used a converter in the past do all connections carefully as per manual and keep all volume knobs to min. Then once connections are made, gradually increase the onkyo knob and then just check if any heat is detected on the onkyo or Kenwood or the converter. Then gradually increase volume on the Kenwood till both LR speakers become audible. Again watch for heat or any unwanted interference.
For calibration keep the Kenwood knob or volume level permanently at 9 o clock or 10 o clock position and then do your manual calibration. Hope this helps.

Thank you so much!
That's what I wanted to know, apart from getting a better sounding LR channel speakers, whether or not will it also help in giving clean power to the channel and surrounds.
So i guess i will skip this method and will look to upgrade my avr so that i get good sound from all the speakers.

 

[Amarendra]

Thank you so much!
That's what I wanted to know, apart from getting a better sounding LR channel speakers, whether or not will it also help in giving clean power to the channel and surrounds.
So i guess i will skip this method and will look to upgrade my avr so that i get good sound from all the speakers.

Even if you upgrade your AVR with pre outs, there is no guarantee of load reduction. So you can try this method on your existing AVR, it could save you a lot of money.

 

[sandeepmohan]

Does the line out converter also reduce the load on the AVR acting in a similar way as a pre-out ?

This is not the best way to go about it, however, if we are out of options, then Yes.
It depends on what resistance, current feedback or load the line out converter is sending back to the amplifier.
The trouble with doing the above and running it through so many chains of equipment, is varied sound output or the sound itself. Will be a bit of task to control gain.

Pre Out behavior is different where there is no load on the power amplifier section of your the AV receiver. You run all 6 (or 5) channels into a dedicated power amplifier or even multiple power amplifiers, preferably of the same brand and series and you get your speaker output.
Ideally; you want to take the main load off the receiver and that is LCR. The rest are mostly effect channels that are active only from time to time.

 

[pantpank]

Even if you upgrade your AVR with pre outs, there is no guarantee of load reduction. So you can try this method on your existing AVR, it could save you a lot of money.

Actually the goal is to feed optimum power to all existing speakers ( Andrew Jones towers and center, taga harmony platinum s100 bipole surrounds). Currently i can feel that onkyo avr is not able to power these speakers efficiently. So a higher power avr like Denon 3500 should give enough juice to these speakers so that they sound good.

 

[pantpank]

This is not the best way to go about it, however, if we are out of options, then Yes.
It depends on what resistance, current feedback or load the line out converter is sending back to the amplifier.
The trouble with doing the above and running it through so many chains of equipment, is varied sound output or the sound itself. Will be a bit of task to control gain.

Pre Out behavior is different where there is no load on the power amplifier section of your the AV receiver. You run all 6 (or 5) channels into a dedicated power amplifier or even multiple power amplifiers, preferably of the same brand and series and you get your speaker output.
Ideally; you want to take the main load off the receiver and that is LCR. The rest are mostly effect channels that are active only from time to time.

Thanks for clearing all my doubts.

 

[Amarendra]

Actually the goal is to feed optimum power to all existing speakers ( Andrew Jones towers and center, taga harmony platinum s100 bipole surrounds). Currently i can feel that onkyo avr is not able to power these speakers efficiently. So a higher power avr like Denon 3500 should give enough juice to these speakers so that they sound good.

There are people on this forum who are even using the Denon 3500/4500 and still wanting to connect external amplifiers- read the posts here. These amplifiers cost about 1 lakh+ . So if you are really serious about other features such as Atmos or networked audio which your onkyo does not provide go with the upgrade route. I had connected external amplifiers to my Denon 2500h by both methods- preouts and converters but there was no evidence that one method was superior to the other. In the end the AVR was heating to the same extent and sound signature was similar.

 

[pantpank]

There are people on this forum who are even using the Denon 3500/4500 and still wanting to connect external amplifiers- read the posts here. These amplifiers cost about 1 lakh+ . So if you are really serious about other features such as Atmos or networked audio which your onkyo does not provide go with the upgrade route. I had connected external amplifiers to my Denon 2500h by both methods- preouts and converters but there was no evidence that one method was superior to the other. In the end the AVR was heating to the same extent and sound signature was similar.

Don't understand why one would want to connect external amplifier, when using an avr like denon 3500/4500, which I believe has good amount of wattage power per channel, unless their room is big and they have high end speakers which require good amount of power.
My room size is 11"13*10 cubic foot and i believe an avr rated above 100 watts would be more than sufficient to drive all the speakers efficiently.

 

[sandeepmohan]

In the end the AVR was heating to the same extent and sound signature was similar.

In my view, the converter business will come in the way of sound calibration, etc. Sure; you do this only once and maybe adjust it once in a while to tailor to you needs.

The Pre out method is a cleaner and correct approach.

It has been been said several times. AV Receiver power output figures should be taken with a sack of salt. Taking that Denon 4500H as an example, it is rated at 235 watts @6ohms, one channel driven. Impressive! Conservatively playing this, divide that by 5 channels (Forget Atmos, etc) and all you get is 47 AV receiver watts. What speaker will sing with this measly output figure?

When you head into dedicated power amplifier space, it is usually 50-75 watts/channel minimum, all channels driven. That is more than double the power output of an AV Receiver. The wattage quality also matters and that is where dedicated power amplifiers will always be needed for home theater.

Leave aside concerns over heat generation. Some amplifiers just run hot due to their design.

 

[MusicMadness]

There are people on this forum who are even using the Denon 3500/4500 and still wanting to connect external amplifiers- read the posts here. These amplifiers cost about 1 lakh+ . So if you are really serious about other features such as Atmos or networked audio which your onkyo does not provide go with the upgrade route. I had connected external amplifiers to my Denon 2500h by both methods- preouts and converters but there was no evidence that one method was superior to the other. In the end the AVR was heating to the same extent and sound signature was similar.

hi,
I am just wondering how the lineout convertor looks like.
Can you show some pictures or share of link of those you have used.
I just want to give a try.

 

[Amarendra]

Here is a link, I use two of these:

2-Channel High-to-Low Converter - Rockford Fosgate India

Use the RF-HLC high-to-low signal converter to connect 2-channel amplifiers to radios without RCA outputs. 2-Channel RCA Level Output Speaker Level Input 1 Year Standard Warranty

rockfordfosgate.in

 

[Amarendra]

In my view, the converter business will come in the way of sound calibration, etc. Sure; you do this only once and maybe adjust it once in a while to tailor to you needs.

The Pre out method is a cleaner and correct approach.

It has been been said several times. AV Receiver power output figures should be taken with a sack of salt. Taking that Denon 4500H as an example, it is rated at 235 watts @6ohms, one channel driven. Impressive! Conservatively playing this, divide that by 5 channels (Forget Atmos, etc) and all you get is 47 AV receiver watts. What speaker will sing with this measly output figure?

When you head into dedicated power amplifier space, it is usually 50-75 watts/channel minimum, all channels driven. That is more than double the power output of an AV Receiver. The wattage quality also matters and that is where dedicated power amplifiers will always be needed for home theater.

Leave aside concerns over heat generation. Some amplifiers just run hot due to their design.

A converter is nothing but two resistors. There are so many factors that can come in the way of sound including cables, wires and conbectors. I would suggest you try one. Many times we have a certain prejudice but unless we try something out the opinion won't change.

 

[Amarendra]

hi,
I am just wondering how the lineout convertor looks like.
Can you show some pictures or share of link of those you have used.
I just want to give a try.

In case you are interested there is another popular one here. See how simple the construction is :

Russound ADP-1.2 Speaker-level to Line-level Adapter

FREE 2-day Shipping: Use this adapter to convert a speaker-level signal to a line-level signal. It's great for sending the amplified output of a multi-room

www.crutchfield.com

 

[MusicMadness]

Thanks.
i shall give a try with the first one.

 

[raghupb]

Don't understand why one would want to connect external amplifier, when using an avr like denon 3500/4500, which I believe has good amount of wattage power per channel, unless their room is big and they have high end speakers which require good amount of power.
My room size is 11"13*10 cubic foot and i believe an avr rated above 100 watts would be more than sufficient to drive all the speakers efficiently.

The answer is somewhere between a need and a want. Each one likes their sound/system presentation differently.
AVRs like Denon 4500H are capable ones, being able power a lot of speakers.
Will it do so effectively? That is answered by the speaker type, impedance, sensitivity, placement, etc.
These days AVR specs (amp section) are so full of page fillers.

Eg.
Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% 2ch Drive) - 125 W
Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 0.7% 2ch Drive) - 165 W
Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 10% 1ch Drive) - 235 W

The first one makes sense; the other two lines ... well, frankly it is meaningless for the real world.
So it means that the power section can deliver about 250W total or a bit more.
Divide that among the number of active channels at a time (say 5 or even 3).
Doesn't add up to a lot, does it?

Adding power amps to L/R or L/C/R brings in a bit of oomph and authority.
Cheers,
Raghu