Questions about speaker cables

[asliarun]

I have a couple of questions.

1. If cabling makes so much of a difference, why does no one talk about the internal cabling in all the electronics? If you then assume that it is top notch and hence not a factor, isn't the best audio system a highly integrated one where all cabling in internal? Integrated amps should easily whip a pre power combo because its cabling is designed to be superior to any trial and error the listener can come up with in terms of cabling, and active speakers should eat everyone else for breakfast.

Or isn't it ironic that we spend a few hundred dollars on cables while the internal cabling in our speakers is probably worth ten dollars, to give a random example.

2. If cabling makes such a big difference assuming a baseline where the cables are all made of decent quality, shielding, and thickness, why don't people experiment with different sizes? If cable X makes a big difference, then a one foot cable should be an even bigger improvement over a six foot one. Why does no one experiment like this and report their results? Or to put it another way, will a one foot blue jeans cable beat a five foot kimber, assuming say that a five foot kimber would sound a bit better than a five foot blue jeans? Just taking two random examples - nothing implied.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

If cabling makes so much of a difference, why does no one talk about the internal cabling in all the electronics?

To be fair, occasionally they do. But here is a question you could add to your list...

If cabling makes so much of a difference, why does no one talk about the cables used in the studios, through which the music has passed in the recording process.

You might find these articles interesting. It's my friends at Blue Jeans again (Guys, I'm foing to send you an order one day. I promise!)...

"Broadcast Quality"-- What does it Mean, and Why is it Good?

Exotic Materials and Cable Construction.

Funny how the "audiophile" suppliers don't shout about Equal-sized Nitrogen Bubbles!

 

[arj]

I have a couple of questions.

1. If cabling makes so much of a difference, why does no one talk about the internal cabling in all the electronics? If you then assume that it is top notch and hence not a factor, isn't the best audio system a highly integrated one where all cabling in internal? Integrated amps should easily whip a pre power combo because its cabling is designed to be superior to any trial and error the listener can come up with in terms of cabling, and active speakers should eat everyone else for breakfast.

Or isn't it ironic that we spend a few hundred dollars on cables while the internal cabling in our speakers is probably worth ten dollars, to give a random example.

2. If cabling makes such a big difference assuming a baseline where the cables are all made of decent quality, shielding, and thickness, why don't people experiment with different sizes? If cable X makes a big difference, then a one foot cable should be an even bigger improvement over a six foot one. Why does no one experiment like this and report their results? Or to put it another way, will a one foot blue jeans cable beat a five foot kimber, assuming say that a five foot kimber would sound a bit better than a five foot blue jeans? Just taking two random examples - nothing implied.

Most good speakers do use good cables..at least the ones I have owned have. Amps / pre amps without pcbs also do pay attention to cables.

Some mfgrs do not do so due to cost reasons that's why DIY'rs mod them by upgrades and show improved performance.

 

[murali]

To be fair, occasionally they do. But here is a question you could add to your list...

If cabling makes so much of a difference, why does no one talk about the cables used in the studios, through which the music has passed in the recording process.

Here is a theory from one of the cable gurus:


Many studios use a decent, even high quality of audio cable, and use mostly balanced connections as well. Some brag about using Monster or another brand of high end audio cables, others just quietly get some thing decent or high performance out of the Belden catalog.
Seldom do dirt-cheap crappy-sounding cables get used in the pro recording studio. Those that brag about using dirt cheap cables find that they get few customers nowadays.

Then, there is the concept of a total error budget before things become audible. It is often argued that, since the recording studio has a console with hundreds of op-amps, miles of wires, dozens of faders (pots), and so on, that this is "proof" that audio cables can't possibly have any effect, it would be swamped out by all these other factors.

The point that these folks seem to be overlooking, is that distortion is additive, signal losses are additive, if the signal gets screwed up pretty good just in the recording studio, then what that really means is, that we have very little margin left over in our playback systems.

If the recording studios have already "used up" most of the distortion and signal loss overhead via the recording process, then what would ordinarily be very slight and insignificant amounts of distortion and/or signal losses suddenly become much more critical, and in going from a very very slight amount to just a slight amount is enough to push the whole playback event over the "real sound illusion" cliff.

One clue to this is that minimalist/perfectionist recordings tend to sound good on a wide variety of systems, while much of the mass market pop music is variable on different systems, and there are those recordings that "gel" on just a few systems, and sound terrible on the majority of other systems.

Anyone who has ever heard live studio feeds, or even recorded playback in the studio over good speakers or reference headphones, can tell you that it sounds pretty good in most instances, and that even with digital recording, storage, and distribution media, there are losses in going from the original studio master to distribution media.

Simple recordings of a live band will tell you that there is a huge loss from being there live to just about any recording that can be made, SOTA and all.

cheers.
murali

 

[arj]

one of the better mastering engineers today - Steve Hoffman pays attention to all components including cables
Steve Hoffman Info Site | Gear

others may not but does that mean that the recording is as good as it could have been ?

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Many studios use a decent, even high quality of audio cable,

Exactly. And that is what should be good at the listening end too.

Some brag about using Monster or another brand of high end audio cables

People brag about Using Monster? **

others just quietly get some thing decent or high performance out of the Belden catalog.

See the link about "Broadcast Quality." This is what it is all about.

Seldom do dirt-cheap crappy-sounding cables get used in the pro recording studio. Those that brag about using dirt cheap cables find that they get few customers nowadays.

Why would anyone use dirt-cheap crappy-sounding cables in a studio?

It is often argued that, since the recording studio has a console with hundreds of op-amps, miles of wires, dozens of faders (pots), and so on, that this is "proof" that audio cables can't possibly have any effect, it would be swamped out by all these other factors.

I don't imagine that that would be argued in that way, by anyone with any knowledge of logic, let alone sound. One cannot follow from the other. However, the idea of such an "argument" could be put forward to belittle the actual arguments in favour of decent, properly-made. to-standard cables, which will not be cheap, but which will also not have exotic specs or be absurdly expensive.

The point that these folks seem to be overlooking, is that distortion is additive, signal losses are additive, if the signal gets screwed up pretty good just in the recording studio, then what that really means is, that we have very little margin left over in our playback systems.

If the recording studios have already "used up" most of the distortion and signal loss overhead via the recording process, then what would ordinarily be very slight and insignificant amounts of distortion and/or signal losses suddenly become much more critical, and in going from a very very slight amount to just a slight amount is enough to push the whole playback event over the "real sound illusion" cliff.

Big IF. smacks of FUD. But all it takes is something like this which is not necessarily untrue to be a big gift to the marketing men.

One clue to this is that minimalist/perfectionist recordings tend to sound good on a wide variety of systems, while much of the mass market pop music is variable on different systems, and there are those recordings that "gel" on just a few systems, and sound terrible on the majority of other systems.

I guess you're saying that a good recording will sound good on almost any system configuration, which has to be true, but I am dubious that cables can correct a bad recording. In my limited experience, the better the system, the more it shows up faults in the source material.

Anyone who has ever heard live studio feeds, or even recorded playback in the studio over good speakers or reference headphones, can tell you that it sounds pretty good in most instances, and that even with digital recording, storage, and distribution media, there are losses in going from the original studio master to distribution media.

Studios have certain advantages, like good equipment, good acoustics, and proper cables that no-one has to worry about. Studios are staffed by engineers, who know what to worry about and what not to worry about.

Simple recordings of a live band will tell you that there is a huge loss from being there live to just about any recording that can be made, SOTA and all

Yes? However much we spend on our audio kit, or however carefully we choose it, we cannot replicate a live performance. That goes without saying.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not against buying good cables. I am against all the exoticism, precious components, cosmetic additions, etc that are used to justify high prices. I'm against success by mere marketing in any field, whether it is hifi, software, or whatever. It works by playing on the fears and insecurities from which we all suffer; and it makes profiting from those far more important than real quality.

On the buying side, I am in favour of those who understand that they have a mind between their ears, and who take some trouble to find out how it works, and how it can be fooled, before they place 100% reliance in its results. This is amazingly important. And interesting!

Please note that I will never say anything like "You are subject to expectation bias [just one example]," but always, "We..." Because we are all the same. On the other hand, I have no time for sentiments like, Oh, al that applies to other people: I'm so experience, and my ears are so good, and my kit is so expensive... Yeah. Accidents always happen to other people too. Or, Engineers; Oh, they just measure stuff: don't suppose they ever actually listen to the music. In other words, there are good arguments, and there are prejudices, wild assumptions and bad arguments.

Please do not think that "cables do make a difference," dismisses all my points. I never said they don't.

(I do hope that no one takes my forthright assertions personally. I appreciate my friends here, whether we agree about Monster cables or not. But hey, why not be forthright?)


** See... I'm a hifi snob, in my way! But I try to know it.

 

[keith_correa]

If I were looking for cables, I'd be happy to compromise between the "cables don't make a difference" and the opposite camp by using something like Chord's Leyline speaker cable. 16AWG. ~Rs.165 per meter. What's not to like? Even if it does not make a difference - for that cost, I don't care.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

What's not to like? Even if it does not make a difference - for that cost, I don't care.

I can go for that :lol:

 

[Kevano]

3) There's a brand called 'Stackfine' which is a Taiwanese company - doing the rounds in Mumbai. They have 1.5 mm cables which folks were ready to sell loose to me at around Rs. 65/m.

Is the gauge of Stackfine accurate or do they under cut by putting a thinner conductor compared to the AWG/sqmm printed on the insulation?