RB202 or Jelco 750D or something else?

[atharva]

Hello vinyl gurus,

I am using a Thorens 160 with the TP16 MKII arm (7.5gm) and DL103 cart (with DIY HQMCPS phono). I knew the arm-cart combo was a mismatch from the start and had planned to upgrade the arm sometime. I am considering the Rega RB202 (without JA Michell/Origin upgrades) vs the Jelco 750D. The Rega is considered medium mass while the Jelco is heavy (neither officially publishes their effective mass).

Assumptions as found in various forums:
RB202 - 13-14gm efffective mass
750D - 20 gm effective mass
DL103 - compliance is 10-12 at 10Hz (not a scientific approximation) as published value is 5 at 100Hz

1. The DL103 suits either arms at the assumed compliance. Rega seems better suited for a variety of carts. Besides, the Rega is much cheaper. I suspect the the upgrade from the stock arm to either will be significant and so will the Rega be a better choice?
2. Do I need the JA Michell upgrades for the 202? That pushes its price close to the Jelco.

Really appreciate your inputs on this especially if you have any experience with either of these arms.
Thanks for reading!

 

[jls001]

My take:
1) the Rega would be on the borderline for a Denon DL 103. One needs something like 17-18 grams effective arm mass for a 103 to work optimally.

2) you could add headshell spacer of 5 to 9 grams to add mass to the arm. You'll need heavier counterweight mass. Typical counterweight mass is about 100-105 grams. To balance the added weight, you'll need something in the region of 138-168 grams. Machining a heavier counterweight is easily do-able from any half decent machinist shop. Just make sure you electroplate it so that it doesn't tarnish.

3) the advantage of the above is that the stock Rega arm will happily work with most higher compliance cartridges.

4) if you plan on using mostly low compliance, high mass cartridges, the Jelco is the way to go. I'd go for the oil damped version.

PS: if you plan on upgrade, the Rega RB 303 is probably the better choice.

 

[soundbuff]

Hello Atharva,
Check out the Wand Tonearm from NZ. Mass about 12, reputed to work with the Denon 103. Price (minus shipping and customs) is not very much more than the 750.

I am planning to get one for my TD 160, and am in touch with the designer. Send me a a pm if you are interested.

Best

 

[jls001]

Please also consider the weight of the arm itself. Since the TD 160 has three-spring suspension, and the suspension is currently adjusted for the light weight of the stock Thorens arm, the springs will have to be readjusted after fitting a heavier arm. I've never done this on the TD 160 (though I still own one), but on the Linn Sondek it is a royal pain in the neck

 

[atharva]

Thanks Joshua!

1. Where can I get the headshell weight?
2. I could not find if the Rega has a vertical adjustment (eg. if I add a spacer)
3. Any idea what the heavier counterweight costs?

 

[atharva]

@soundbuff

Haven't come across that arm. What are the reasons you are considering that one over the "popular" ones?

 

[soundbuff]

Hi,
I had thought of going for a used SME 3009. However I already have a light tone-arm on my Project, and wanted to go for a heavier tone-arm. The Wand has a decent review on TNT, and the mass is moderately high, but not so heavy that the springs will get unbalanced. The manufacturer provides a ready plate for fitting on to the Thorens 318, and says he will do it for the TD 160 too. You can write to him directly on the website address in case you are curious; he gets back in a few days and is quite helpful.

 

[greenhorn]

why not wrap the tonearm with something heavy and damping - should add decent mass, while enhancing the sound, and with lesser impact on the tonearm balance

 

[soundbuff]

Atharva,

Until you get that 'new tone-arm' it may be good to buy a Shure M97xe somewhere on the net. I run it it my 'light-weight' Project carbon 9cc, its a very good cartridge, and not just for the money. The Thorens tone-arm you have gets trashed a lot, but is in fact pretty decent. You do however need a high compliance cartridge. I have the older heavier version of arm and run the Denon Dl 110 on it. Sounds good and tracks very well. The Dl 103 is unfortunately way off compliance matching. The budget Shure will be just fine in your set up. That way you can take your time and won't have to rush into a tone-arm purchase.

Best

 

[atharva]

If I go MM I will need to change the phono. Also, the only way to know if a tonearm is going to make an audible difference is to try one

@Joshua
I can't find what is better in 303 vs a 202.

BTW, what are the options for tonearm wire available locally other than importing Cardas? Seems like this is a must do.

 

[jls001]

Thanks Joshua!

1. Where can I get the headshell weight?
2. I could not find if the Rega has a vertical adjustment (eg. if I add a spacer)
3. Any idea what the heavier counterweight costs?

Head shell weights I made myself at home using brass plates. You'll need s drilling machine with correct bits, small hand files of various shapes, digital jeweller's scale, and lots of patience

Rega has threading on the base of the arm for height adjustment.

Counterweight was locally machined at a machinist. Done on a lathe. Later chrome plated. Dimensions calculated using formula for volume of a cylinder (multiplied by the specific density of brass). Once you have target weight (which in my case was 138 and 168 grams), cylinder height and radius can be calculated. Subtract mass of hole which is cut out for inserting the weight in the counterweight stub of the arm. Subtract also the mass of the hole for retaining screw (Allen grub screw with rounded tip, or an actual Allen grub screw with inserted ball tip). There is a thread somewhere here where I described how to DIY counterweights. Definitely cheaper than buying from Europe.

 

[jls001]

@Joshua
I can't find what is better in 303 vs a 202.

BTW, what are the options for tonearm wire available locally other than importing Cardas? Seems like this is a must do.

202 is their basic model. 303 is one model above that, and probably their most popular model (after the demise of the 250).

Have not tried Cardas tonearm wires, but I believe there are many better ones, especially silver ones. Do PM mraghunadh for source of the very thin (33 AWG, IIRC), silk insulated wires he had used. It's very flexible and sounds very good. I use the same on a DIY arm. The only caveat on using this wire is that you need to be careful while soldering the terminations. Stripping the insulation is difficult, at the same time easy. Just hold the tip of a hot soldering rod close to the insulation to burn it off, careful not to burn too much.

If you have old headphones you can sacrifice, strip off the insulation and check out the internal wires. They're usually very thin and surprisingly good sounding.

 

[atharva]

Seems like these are the things do on the Rega
1. Rewire tonearm with 33awg wire
2. Rewire the RCA cables
3. Get a new 5 pin Male-Female DIN to add a separate ground wire. It seems like the standard Rega connects the ground to the left channel.
4. Get VTA adjuster kit (optional)
5. May be build/get a better counterweight. (optional)

Is it not possible to replace the headshell (12-13 gm) on the Jelco with a lighter one of 7 gms? Assuming the effective mass is 20 gms shaving 5 gms at the very end should definitely reduce the effective mass by more than 5 gms making it almost like the Rega?

 

[stevieboy]

Hi Atharva,

The 303 has better more precise bearings, and a better designed arm tube for tackling resonance. Most popular mods include replacing the counterweight cos its coupled badly to the armtube, which is why you have a host of options of independent counterweights in the market. The second most popular mod is doing something to the armtube itself as in sending it off for modification, not doing it yourself literally. The cardas tonearm wire is well regarded I use it myself on my SME, silver would tend to sound brighter as a rule. Good to experiment here. The Jelco is also well regarded and can take a range of carts right up to SPU with the heavier counterweight option and low compliance carts with a heavier headshell option. From what I've read people tend to find the Rega's bass tighter/better but the Jelco more musical overall, the Rega a bit more bland/unemotional. Someone who's used both here can perhaps comment. Talking about stock ones here. With the rega you'd have to factor in a VTA after market ring like Pete Riggle's one unless the cart you choose magically and luckily has the right height .

Regards