Recording of audience applause in live music recordings

[manoj.p]

I don't think I could agree

The room/venue is an extremely critical aspect of any sound setup. Be it music or movie. Home or cinema or stadium or a concert hall. Speakers are always placed keeping in mind the acoustics of the room/venue. Anyone who ignores "the room" and "the reflections there in" can never get an optimum audio experience.

Not denying the fact that reflections aren't there. All the rooms have reflections. What I am contesting is whether the reflections can help in all the rooms. Many rooms are not setup right or its hard to use reflections positively. Most times they mess up the sound stage.

Yes. But the reflection helping is not a norm. That's what I was pointing out.

Also, as I pointed earlier, reflections won't give you everything or deep soundstage. It can certainly help in some situations but that won't be the end of it.

 

[captrajesh]

As for the original question the thread started with, as to why the applause is positioned behind the speakers and not behind the listening position, there are two solutions. One is setup a very high quality 2-channel system.

There appears to be some confusion here. The question is why applauses are positioned behind the speakers not in front of it i.e. between the speakers and the listening position. (Not behind the listening position)

If they have to sound behind the listening position, IMO no 2 channel system whatever the cost would be able to produce it.

 

[square_wave]

If they have to sound behind the listening position, IMO no 2 channel system whatever the cost would be able to produce it.

Why do we need to ??

Arent we assuming that clapping is always happening at the back of the listener ?

What if you are sitting in the :

Rear row ? happens by the side and in the front of you
Middle ? happens everywhere - all around you
Front by the side and rear of you

Hence there is no gold standard. The best way is to keep it wherever in the stereo image but subdued. Unless the recording is dramatic like pink Floyd, there is no place for distractions like these in music apart from giving a subdued ambience.

 

[captrajesh]

Why do we need to ??

For adding to the realism to the illusion.

Arent we assuming that clapping is always happening at the back of the listener ?

My point is, with a pair of stereo speakers, a sound stage can be created in such a way that the audience can be made to sound as forward as possible i.e. between the listener and the speakers whereas the performers are by and large behind the speakers.

Let me explain. In current recordings, there is sound stage and musicians are three dimensionally in front of you. The vocalist is generally in the centre and placed the forward most and sometimes also playing an instrument, commonly, a guitar. Then other performers are placed in the space, some to the left, some to the right; some are in front, some are at the back.

As long as the song is playing, this is the case. At the end, when the applause is played, the performers get replaced by the audience which is kind of weird to me. They could've been placed way forward so that the applause would sound as if some invisible people are seated in front of the listeners and clapping adding to the illusion.

What if you are sitting in the :

Rear row ? happens by the side and in the front of you
Middle ? happens everywhere - all around you
Front by the side and rear of you

Hence there is no gold standard. The best way is to keep it wherever in the stereo image but subdued. Unless the recording is dramatic like pink Floyd, there is no place for distractions like these in music apart from giving a subdued ambience.

I think we are taking it to an extreme here. I've explained my point above. If this kind of recording is to be done, then we would need a 5 channel setup. I'm only referring to Stereo recording.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I don't suppose you could easily "throw together" a 4-chanel system. If anyone can, or can use their existing HT, and are interested in subjects such as that in this thread, they might want to try s current BBC Radio experimental broadcast series.

Radio 3 in 4.00

I guess it will be all Western classical. No actual idea of the program content.

 

[abhicreative12]

very nice and informative thread..!!!

 

[ranjeetrain]

There appears to be some confusion here. The question is why applauses are positioned behind the speakers not in front of it i.e. between the speakers and the listening position. (Not behind the listening position)

I understood that correctly. And I am referring to the same phenomena. Not exactly the same (as in reproducing the applause) but similar (as in reproducing the soundstage). I mentioned one a soundtrack above. I get a clear soundstage (in my room, in my system) which should be perceivable by all but most novice of hifi lovers. I get nearly a helicopter effect, all from two channels (two speakers, playing a two channel track through a stereo amp).

If they have to sound behind the listening position, IMO no 2 channel system whatever the cost would be able to produce it.

My US$ 1500 portable rig does it.

Any computer > Nuforce USB Cable > Nuforce Icon HDP > Sennheiser HD 650. In the soundtrack Zambezi by Tinashe I clearly hear the laughter of the girl sitting among the audience come from behind as well as the applause.

I would consider my system 100% the day I can replicate the same feat on my full-scale system. As of today it images remarkably for a full-scale system but falls short of replicating the kind of pin-point imaging I get from my portable rig.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Well, headphones do weird (and sometimes wonderful) things to soundstage (...and I'd really like to try the HD 800s!) but usually speakers win.

Of course, I too have looked around me for the cough or other sound I didn't think was part of the recording, and probably more often when using 'phones. It's a bit weird: leaves me feeling a bit silly, but also happy that the system could do that! I do think that the processing in our brains has a lot to do with that sort of thing --- but if you should then ask me why it happens to you with one piece of equipment and not with another, then I wouldn't have an answer; maybe hifi has to go so far before brain can close the gap.

 

[ranjeetrain]

Well, headphones do weird (and sometimes wonderful) things to soundstage (...and I'd really like to try the HD 800s!) but usually speakers win.

Of course, I too have looked around me for the cough or other sound I didn't think was part of the recording, and probably more often when using 'phones. It's a bit weird: leaves me feeling a bit silly, but also happy that the system could do that! I do think that the processing in our brains has a lot to do with that sort of thing --- but if you should then ask me why it happens to you with one piece of equipment and not with another, then I wouldn't have an answer; maybe hifi has to go so far before brain can close the gap.

I am not sure if I can agree with the "weird" part. Same about "usually speakers win". I am of the opinion that we interpret speaker sound as correct only because we are more used to it. But the kind of pinpoint imaging even an average portable rig provides is spectacular compared to a regular system.

I also disagree that it's our brain. Our brain does no different processing of vibrations in the air based on whether it is coming from a regular speaker or a headphone. What our brain always picks is electrical pulses generated by the nerves in our auditory system. So I can never take it as a related to "processing in the brain" thing.

I have always wondered why God have given us ears on the sides but we keep our speakers on the front. I have pondered over this since the day I was setting up my first music system back in the early childhood. Isn't it weird that God created us with ears on sides to receive sound clues from reflections from objects around us, primarily located left and right. But we place our speakers in the front and want to eliminate reflections from first reflection point, essentially preventing ears from receiving cues about location and distance.

I am not only dissatisfied with the way we place speakers, but also the way recordings are made. Close miking, fake sound effects, unnecessary stereo expansion, fake panning. Worse, some recordings that are mastered on low end equipment have bad placement. Sound engineer intends to place the main vocal back on the stage, but in the quest they end up altering the height of the singer.

Placing speakers on the side will give rise to a different set of problems (because current speakers and electronics are designed and voiced for front placement) but at least it will be more truthful when it comes to recreating the original sound-stage, in the same way headphones do.

Unfortunately, audiophile world is full of traditional thinkers. I am surprised why there have been so little advances in audiophile industry (especially 2-channel) compared to other industries. I am of the opinion that it's due to lack of out-of-the-box thinking at a principle level in this hobby.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Very interesting points of view.

I suppose when I talk of the brain, I am talking about the whole field of psychoacoustics. Because I have never studied it, I don't know the correct technical terms, but I believe that it covers everything from the way out outer ear affects sound to the way our thoughts, and even feelings, affect the way that we hear it.

On Sunday evening, I was at a veena concert. It was a husband/wife duet. As far as I could tell from where I was sitting, there was no panning of one to left and the other to right. With my eyes open, I was able to see, and thus to "hear" who was playing, but if I shut them, it collapsed into a one-point sound source. This is a sort of opposite to the headphone experience, put by someone in better words than I have thought of (paraphrased): with eyes shut, lost in the music, a whole orchestra is spread out in front of me, but one glance in the mirror makes this collapse into the left-right headphone thing.

When we read a novel, we do not constantly remind ourselves (except maybe during the scary bits!) that this is not real: we do what literary people call the willing suspension of disbelief. Stereo is an illusion. Patently, there are only ever two sound source. With more or less difficulty, mental effort itself can destroy the sound stage --- but mostly, having adjusted our speakers, we are more interested in facilitating, rather than destroying, the illusion. Long live the illusion!

Headphones (without cross-feed tweaks) inevitably lack the left->right and right->to left clues, and that cannot be changed even by designing ear units that put the drivers at a forward angle to our ear. Thus, the headphone sound stage, without the help of our imagination, tends to be either in a line through the middle of our head, or in an arc over the top of it. Let the brain do some illusioning! Long live the illusion!

 

[ranjeetrain]

I wish to quote Ralph Werner of Fairaudio.de who said this about reproduction of audience applause in live music recordings through Ascendo C8.

Or take live recordings. I've never accepted that audience applause occurs behind the stage as is typical for most recordings and stereo setups. I won't claim that the C8 conjures up a surround world but 'canned live music' with activated rear ribbon sounds more persuasive; audience and music aren't as far removed. Perhaps that's no surprise as applause is a mostly diffuse noise where to increase the ambient energy field is likely not a bad idea.

Ascendo C8 creates this magic with the help of a rear mounted ribbon unit that it refers to as "TOS Unit". Ribbon tweeters often excel at communicating ambient information with greater realism. Same about planar speakers; they are just a lot more accurate with sound-staging.