Roku Ultra vs Nvidia Shield Pro vs Apple TV 4k - Which one to choose?

[superczar]

I am confused as to the use case...on the one hand you are recommending spending 3x-4x more for video quality. On the other hand, you are saying you have moved away from proper blurays to OTT?
The OTT 4k is nowhere good enough for proper 4k. If you look at the bitrate for 4k on OTT platforms including apple tv it will be 1/3-1/4th of the bitrates of untouched bluray releases...if I remember right it is actually 15-25mbps bitrate for ott vs bitrate for untouched blurays can be as high as 128mbps

So, if actual video quality is the concern, surely a 3x-4x higher bitrate source video stream would be much better compared to a powerful soc...what will the soc do if the source itself is poor?

While the above argument makes for a classic example of cherry-picking but I will let that pass

Just to clarify though, The availability and cost of BR disks are an issue so I presume you are talking OTT vs BR remuxes ?

 

[OM_2K19]

If you look at the bitrate for 4k on OTT platforms including apple tv it will be 1/3-1/4th of the bitrates of untouched bluray releases...if I remember right it is actually 15-25mbps bitrate for ott vs bitrate for untouched blurays can be as high as 128mbps

I have seen the bitrate for 4K (HDR/ATMOS) content on Prime/Netflix/Hotstar/Apple Tv+ going up to 8 MB/S (64 Mbps). It's not financially possible to match the bitrate of BD over streaming, but this is also not bad by any means.

 

[superczar]

I have seen the bitrate for 4K (HDR/ATMOS) content on Prime/Netflix/Hotstar/Apple Tv+ going up to 8 MB/S (64 Mbps). It's not financially possible to match the bitrate of BD over streaming, but this is also not bad by any means.

Regular BD remuxes are around the same
A typical BD remux will be around 50-70 GB for a 2.5 hr movie - say 60GB
Of this, about 15% are the multiple audio tracks so video is say 50GB for 2.5 hrs or 20GB an hour or 45mbps (20*8*1024/3600)

ATV+ rentals/ show bit rates are about the same, Netflix used to be lower (15-20) but seems to have gone up of late …
Hotstar and the likes are noticeably lower.

 

[msankadi]

ATV+ rentals/ show bit rates are about the same

No they are not

Here is a comparison first link on google

Of all of Apple’s new shows, See had the highest bitrate, averaging 29Mbps and peaking at 41Mbps, although his measuring tool wasn’t able to determine how often it hits that peak, since only the overall peak is reported. By comparison, he found that The Elephant Queen averaged around 26Mbps, and Dickinson came in at a lower rate of 17.9Mbps. On the other hand, Snoopy in Space streamed at almost 14Mbps on average, which was particularly impressive since it’s a 2D cartoon that includes basic colours and far less detail than Apple’s live-action shows.


By comparison, a UHD Blu-ray disc normally uses bitrates ranging from 82Mbps to 128Mbps, depending on format and content

Apple TV+ Has the Highest Streaming Video Quality Ever, But You May Want to Watch Your Data Caps

One thing that’s easy to miss in Apple’s promotion of all of its new Apple TV+ content is the fact that it’s also offering it all in the highest qualities

www.idropnews.com

Another comparison of apple tv bitrates. It hardly is 30mbps average as I said so no not the same as blurays

Bitrate of Disney+ compared to HBO and Apple TV+​

Using His Dark Materials as test:

• HBO Go on Apple TV 4K - Avg Bitrate Video - 3.89 Mbps / Peak Bitrate Video - 8.93 Mbps SDR natural size 1920x1080
• Through Spectrum app - Avg Bitrate Video - 5.18 Mbps SDR 1280x720
• Through Apple TV native app - Avg Bitrate Video - 8.65 Mbps / Peak - 14.94 Mbps SDR 1920x1080
• Through Amazon: Avg Bitrate Video - 8.84 Mbps / Peak 13.36 Mbps SDR 1920x1080

And just for fun, Carnival Row in 4k UHD

• bitrate video: 9.90 Mbps / Peak 12.36 Mbps, HDR10, 3840x2160

For All Mankind test Apple TV+ show on Apple TV

• 4K 22.39 Mbps Average / 30.45 Mbps Peak HDR10 (my tv limitation I am testing on - video range is DolbyVision) 3840x1920

Just booted up "Dumbo (2019)"

• It's coming back Avg. Bitrate: 16.55 Mbps, Peak Bitrate: 27.55 Mbps, natural size: 3840x2160, video range: Dolby Vision

Mandolorian

• is coming in at Average: 16.28 Mbps Peak: 28.02 Mbps

On one hand you are saying there is a noticeable difference between Netflix and apple tv where the bitrate difference would be 10mbps at best... On the other hand you are saying apple 30mbps is equal to a bluray bitrate of 60mbps minimum... You can see where the cherrypicking and plaecbo is

 

[superczar]

By comparison, a UHD Blu-ray disc normally uses bitrates ranging from 82Mbps to 128Mbps, depending on format and content



On one hand you are saying there is a noticeable difference between Netflix and apple tv where the bitrate difference would be 10mbps at best... On the other hand you are saying apple 30mbps is equal to a bluray bitrate of 60mbps minimum... You can see where the cherrypicking and plaecbo is

This is why I had asked you if you are comparing BR disk or BD remux.
BR disks have plenty of additional content as well hence remuxes are a better mechanism to make sense of the bit rate.
I have already put up the maths for you that you can validate (45mbps - very roughly).

You also need to keep one big factor in mind - OTT uses h.265 which requires anywhere between 40-60% bitrate of h.264 used on BR disks (so 100mbps for a disk h.264 stream would roughly be at par with 50mbps on h.265 streams)

Also, rather than quoting random snippets from the net, I (as well as another FM before my post) have shared data that we have seen for ourselves.

Subjectively I find ATV+ to be at par, Netflix used to have some artifacts in dark scenes earlier but has improved significantly of late.
HS is not yet at par.

As an aside, sorry to say this but you have gone on a complete tangent.
Throughout the thread, I have maintained that the choice of a streamer (or not getting one altogether) is a question of picking your poison on the basis of your priorities
But if you want to read between the lines and draw assumptions then well, what can I say?

 

[OM_2K19]

Hotstar and the likes are noticeably lower.

Hotstar used to be data shy, but now it's quite the opposite after the recent update.

 

[Amarendra]

I clearly mentioned for people with an atmos HT set up

Now let me share an example. See the screenshots of how real debrid works using video ad ons on kodi. I can directly search for any movies or tv shows. I have shared example of me browsing by years. Opened Wonder Woman and the last image is the links for you to directly stream or download it to the HD connected to shield. It clearly shows the file size, format and codecs. See how good it is? So you cannot say shield is irrelevant for people who don’t need usb play back. Apple TV cannot trump this unless your only usage is OTT which is again available with shied as well, with the Apple TV being better in OTT quality is what I heard back from owners of both

What is real debrid and how is streaming happening of Blu-rays of 40-50 gb. What am I missing here

 

[Love4sound]

What is real debrid and how is streaming happening of Blu-rays of 40-50 gb. What am I missing here

Real debrid is a subscription service which you will have to activate through video addons in kodi. It will give you access to either download or stream any tv shows and movies.You can opt for the file you prefer to stream or download. Either the blu ray remux files that will be ranging form 40-90 GB depending upon the movie or 1080p web rips

 

[Amarendra]

Real debrid is a subscription service which you will have to activate through video addons in kodi. It will give you access to either download or stream any tv shows and movies.You can opt for the file you prefer to stream or download. Either the blu ray remux files that will be ranging form 40-90 GB depending upon the movie or 1080p web rips

Have you subscribed. any concerns so far or dI u need vpn

 

[Love4sound]

Have you subscribed. any concerns so far or dI u need vpn

Yes and have been using it for nearly 2 years. I don't use VPN and it works flawlessly but if you are some one who is not comfortable to use it without masking your IP then you have many reliable vpn services available

 

[ankitbhargava]

I have seen the bitrate for 4K (HDR/ATMOS) content on Prime/Netflix/Hotstar/Apple Tv+ going up to 8 MB/S (64 Mbps). It's not financially possible to match the bitrate of BD over streaming, but this is also not bad by any means.

Really how? VPN?
For Netflix I believe there is a Cap of 15.25 Mbps at the moment for Indian viewers.
Prime/Hotstar should even be less

I use FS4K in one room and ATV elsewhere.
I ended up buying 2 more ATVs after having used both .
The FS is a great device for the price but other than that, the devices are not comparable.

From a usability perspective, the ATV is very fluid while the FS 4K tends to lag.
There is no ATMOS support on FS for anything other than Prime (which doesn't really count) while the former does ATMOS on every service that supports it.
For local playback, Kodi on FS is just about acceptable but not something that any of the other users in the house will ever use while Infuse on ATV is extremely simple/ joy to use for everyone else as well.


You are right in that The difference on paper between these devices is minimal but the devil is in the details - After all (and given this is primarily an audio forum), a JBL Go BT speaker also reproduces music , doesn't it?

100% agree to it
The only thing I would like to add is, a lot would depend upon what best quality ones own setup could produce.
Given a mediocre setup with its own limitation, no matter what you throw at it... the quality shall not be better than its own limitation.
For fairly good performing equipment, its worth giving try to best available streaming devices. Invest in two or three if needed. After all it will still be a fractional cost of your overall setup but would be MOST crucial to the final output.

I don't think Disney and Lionsgate is available on Xbox. Series S is at 35k, which is th latest generation. But older generation ones can be had for 15k or less.
It is simple to setup like a phone, have a Microsoft account and sign in thats it.
I found the upscaling and visuals a bit better than Nvidia Shield, but the sound quality definitely inately miles ahead. Xbox even has 24p decoder maybe that can be one reason.



Yes, it does bitstream through USB. Someone over other thread pointed it out, I remember long time back when I checked on my Xbox One X it did not support. But few days back I tried playing few movies from my HDD on Xbox Series X and it played Dolby Atmos True HD and even Imax Enhanced movies. I was shocked! Cause I got nvidia shield because earlier xbox was not able to do this. But dunno if only latest gen consoles can play these.

@ankitbhargava used Xbox One S soley maybe he can clear few doubts.

This is the thread

Suggest me an upgrade to my Himedia Q5 Pro...

This player is still running and working wonderfully well. I thought i will upgrade my player and get a new one from U.S (since my bro is coming in few months) Suggest a good player which can play 4k videos , HDR10 / 10+ , DV files etc ..and play all kinds of HD-audio... atmos ..etc without...

www.hifivision.com

Apology for responding the posts individually,
I am running Apple TV+ on my Xbox One S which also give access to Lionsgate
The sound and picture quality is really good. Seems like it does have better streaming bitrate than Netflix.

 

[Nitin K]

Apology for responding the posts individually,
I am running Apple TV+ on my Xbox One S which also give access to Lionsgate
The sound and picture quality is really good. Seems like it does have better streaming bitrate than Netflix.

Hi Ankit,

What are your impressions about the sound quality of movies played from a hardisk or pendrive on the Xbox via the usb port. Do you feel the sound quality is low vs streaming ?

Thanks a lot,
Nitin

 

[superczar]

Apology for responding the posts individually,
I am running Apple TV+ on my Xbox One S which also give access to Lionsgate
The sound and picture quality is really good. Seems like it does have better streaming bitrate than Netflix.

Try out foundation and See on ATV+.

These should hit 50-60 mbps peaks (using hevc) which is at par if not better than the 90-100 mbps peaks on the less efficient native h.264 on Blu Ray. (hevc is about 1.8-2X more efficient than h.264)

 

[msankadi]

Try out foundation and See on ATV+.

These should hit 50-60 mbps peaks (using hevc) which is at par if not better than the 90-100 mbps peaks on the less efficient native h.264 on Blu Ray. (hevc is about 1.8-2X more efficient than h.264)

View attachment 64906

Peak is not the same as average. How many times does it hit the peak which is almost 2x the average. How many such shows are there? There are almost infinite blurays all of which have an average bitrate of 60 plus mbps.

I am sure you can find many comparisons on the web, I highly doubt if on average bluray doesn't wipe the floor with ATV.

Leaving aside this thread do you actually think that the streaming quality is at par with 4k dedicated blurays in general... If that is true i would be very very shocked.

 

[superczar]

Peak is not the same as average. How many times does it hit the peak which is almost 2x the average. How many such shows are there? There are almost infinite blurays all of which have an average bitrate of 60 plus mbps.

I am sure you can find many comparisons on the web, I highly doubt if on average bluray doesn't wipe the floor with ATV.

Leaving aside this thread do you actually think that the streaming quality is at par with 4k dedicated blurays in general... If that is true i would be very very shocked.

I think I have already answered your question but happy to restate

Subjectively

ATV+ looks subjectively the same
Netflix used to look worse with artefacts in dark /busy scenes but comes pretty darned close now
Hotstar was noticeably worse but the recent releases (Disney) have got quite good
Lionsgate, I have watched only 1 TV series so cannot really say
I don’t use any other OTT service

Technically:
- Typical BD UHD movies comes in a 2 disk set of which 1 is normally a BD66 containing the UHD movie and a BD 50 for the 1080p + extras
- This 66GB disk is around 80% video content encoded in h.264 for a 2:30 movie, let’s take 2:15
- That yields an average bit rate of 53.5mbps (66*1024*0.8*8)/(3600*2.25) in h.264 encode
- This is very roughly equivalent to an average bit rate of 26.75 mbps for h.265 -

The compression efficiency of h.264 vs h.265 can vary though depending on content so I’ll err on the conservative side and use 40% instead of the more widely agreed 50% so that we don’t end up chasing a red herring - so thats 32.1mbps
(and let’s please not get sidetracked on this - neither BR nor OTT use lossless , and h.265 is a significant improvement over h.264)

In other words, a 26-32mbps average bitstream on OTT should yield a PQ technically equal to a commercially available UHD BR
Some OTT providers meet or exceed that already, others are close and should improve in the very near future
so there you have it

 

[msankadi]

I think I have already answered your question but happy to restate

Subjectively

ATV+ looks subjectively the same
Netflix used to look worse with artefacts in dark /busy scenes but comes pretty darned close now
Hotstar was noticeably worse but the recent releases (Disney) have got quite good
Lionsgate, I have watched only 1 TV series so cannot really say
I don’t use any other OTT service

Technically:
- Typical BD UHD movies comes in a 2 disk set of which 1 is normally a BD66 containing the UHD movie and a BD 50 for the 1080p + extras
- This 66GB disk is around 80% video content encoded in h.264 for a 2:30 movie, let’s take 2:15
- That yields an average bit rate of 53.5mbps (66*1024*0.8*8)/(3600*2.25) in h.264 encode
- This is very roughly equivalent to an average bit rate of 26.75 mbps for h.265 -

The compression efficiency of h.264 vs h.265 can vary though depending on content so I’ll err on the conservative side and use 40% instead of the more widely agreed 50% so that we don’t end up chasing a red herring - so thats 32.1mbps
(and let’s please not get sidetracked on this - neither BR nor OTT use lossless , and h.265 is a significant improvement over h.264)

In other words, a 26-32mbps average bitstream on OTT should yield a PQ technically equal to a commercially available UHD BR
Some OTT providers meet or exceed that already, others are close and should improve in the very near future
so there you have it

Interesting, you have given me something to think about

 

[Love4sound]

Interesting, you have given me something to think about

IMO on the video part i have no problem with OTT.In all my A/B tests with Shield 2017,Shield 2019 pro,Sony BDP 450,Sonyx700 and PS4 the PQ was identical. I have the dolby vision app installed in my LG c9 which has some demo dolby vision clips. I have the same in Blu ray and video is on par for my eyes while comparing. So it is safe assume that OTT picture quality is on par with blu ray.The problem i have is with the Audio and its so horrible that i am watching all OTT contents using only my TV speakers. Movies i compared in OTT with bluray and remux files where Aquaman, Man of steel and few others. Now if i play the movie directly in OTT without checking it on blu ray it feels its good enough. Now coming back after testing the same movie and scenes on blu ray it sounds compressed and thin. Lot of dynamics are killed.Now only device i haven't tested in my chain is the apple tv.

 

[Silencer]

Not just the codec, the encoding parameters matter, too.

But recently OTT has become quite good with video. I agree with @Love4sound about the audio. I hope it shall improve, too.

Now I have learnt to live with the OTT video quality. Purely for its convenience. I no longer have the time or energy I once had. I would have fought along with the Bluray side had this discussion happened last year. But now, personally I am content with the video quality.

Just the video quality.
​

 

[ankitbhargava]

Hi Ankit,

What are your impressions about the sound quality of movies played from a hardisk or pendrive on the Xbox via the usb port. Do you feel the sound quality is low vs streaming ?

Thanks a lot,
Nitin

Sorry, for some reason I never tried hdd/pendrive with xbox but in general the offline lossless content and sometimes the streamed ones using "Real Debrid" sound better than the OTT streaming. For me its mostly about more dynamics and tighter bass. I will definitely find a chance to check the performance of content streamed via USB of Xbox

Try out foundation and See on ATV+.

These should hit 50-60 mbps peaks (using hevc) which is at par if not better than the 90-100 mbps peaks on the less efficient native h.264 on Blu Ray. (hevc is about 1.8-2X more efficient than h.264)

View attachment 64906

I finished watching Foundation (available content so far) just yesterday.
I will have Apple TV 4K (2nd Gen) with me on Tuesday, I will try out some scenes I liked from PQ and SQ perspective again.
By the way how to check the streaming stats on ATV+ app?

 

[OM_2K19]

Really how? VPN?
For Netflix I believe there is a Cap of 15.25 Mbps at the moment for Indian viewers.
Prime/Hotstar should even be less

Yeah, that came as a surprise to me as well. I have no VPN but on static IP; I'm not sure if that helps bypass any ISP restrictions. That said, the average bit rate I see is around 4MB/s (32 Mbps) for 4K (HDR/ATMOS) contents and, for some demanding schenes reaching up to 7/8 MB/s. Episode 5 of 'The Wheel of Time' has scenes where I saw it hitting 7/8 MB/s (56/64 Mbps) off late.