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Satellite speakers + 2 sub-woofers for stereo - Works?

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elangoas

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After reading some articles on sub-woofers, 2 sub-woofers seem to do a better job in a room (HT).. 4 subs seems to ideal, but 2 is what looks feasible in my room..

Also reading up on room boundaries, Low Freq (<150Hz) seem to pose more challenges than the High Freq in a living room. (Few technical terms are difficult to comprehend)

This has got me thinking if 2 sub-woofers are used in a room, then a satellite speakers {2-way/3-way} should do a better job than Floor-stander/Bookshelf w.r.t room boundaries..

In this scenario, if one is using an AVR for stereo and set the crossover say 150Hz and satellites are mounted on the wall (to reduce the room boundary issue), will this have any benefit to the user? And a Digital room correction feature that most AVR's have today, if applied, is it beneficial for stereo?

Appreciate your insights on the same..
 

greenhorn

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2 subs + 2 sats looks more like a special case of floorstanders.

unless you are using a mono signal to run both subs, and even then it's not too different

if you want bass without room interaction, why not try open baffle :)
 

elangoas

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2 subs + 2 sats looks more like a special case of floorstanders.

The idea is to double up the AVR + speakers + sub-woofers for both Stereo / HT..

unless you are using a mono signal to run both subs, and even then it's not too different

It is a stereo signal, with crossover applied at 150Hz in AVR, presents a mono signal to sub-woofer and then 2 subs re-producing the same freq..

if you want bass without room interaction, why not try open baffle :)

Nope.. Will live with simple speakers, and try to make it better :)
 

apk

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I have stereo speakers that are built in a 2.2 configuration. The sub (12 inch) is in a separate enclosure. The mids and tweeters (2 each) are in a another enclosure which are kept on top of the sub. These speakers are from brand called Enbee, and I run them with a pre-power combination, also from Enbee. A technics TT & Marantz CDP are used as sources.

My experience has been that I get a lot of boom in smaller spaces. This is especially true if the sub is placed close to the rear walls and side walls. In my experience, they need at least 2 feet breathing space around. I have heard speakers made using the same philosophy (i.e. sub in one enclosure and mid/tweeter in another) - the Lithos Kontra, and they too need breathing space.

My feeling is that if you cannot get a floorstander or a large bookshelf to work in a room, then a satellite+sub combination may also not work. Smaller sized subs (say an 8 incher) may work better, but may not get well integrated with the satellites especially for music.

Best,
apk
 

Naturelover

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Rethm speakers use 2.2 configuration with great results. I have heard a Line Magnetic single driver pair with two subwoofers. Wonderful sound. Morel Octave is another high end setup having a 2.2 with superb sound.
There are DefTech and Canton speakers with subwoofers built into the FS cabinets.

Edit:
I am pretty satisfied with the music from my Quad Lite HT fronts and sub. This subwoofer had great reviews for being good for music.
 
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elangoas

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I have stereo speakers that are built in a 2.2 configuration. The sub (12 inch) is in a separate enclosure. The mids and tweeters (2 each) are in a another enclosure which are kept on top of the sub. These speakers are from brand called Enbee, and I run them with a pre-power combination, also from Enbee. A technics TT & Marantz CDP are used as sources.

Could you please share the connectivity between sat+ sub, crossover freq.. Subwoofer ported (or) sealed?

My experience has been that I get a lot of boom in smaller spaces. This is especially true if the sub is placed close to the rear walls and side walls. In my experience, they need at least 2 feet breathing space around. I have heard speakers made using the same philosophy (i.e. sub in one enclosure and mid/tweeter in another) - the Lithos Kontra, and they too need breathing space.

My feeling is that if you cannot get a floorstander or a large bookshelf to work in a room, then a satellite+sub combination may also not work. Smaller sized subs (say an 8 incher) may work better, but may not get well integrated with the satellites especially for music.

Best,
apk

My idea is very similar to what you have explained, keeping the subs close to the front walls.. But 2 feet distance is a little ask for a small living room..

What was the approx room size where you experienced boom ?

Rethm speakers use 2.2 configuration with great results. I have heard a Line Magnetic single driver pair with two subwoofers. Wonderful sound. Morel Octave is another high end setup having a 2.2 with superb sound.
There are DefTech and Canton speakers with subwoofers built into the FS cabinets.

Edit:
I am pretty satisfied with the music from my Quad Lite HT fronts and sub. This subwoofer had great reviews for being good for music.

What is the crossover freq between Quad Lite sat + sub.. Hope you set them in AVR... Subwoofer ported (or) sealed?
 

Naturelover

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Could you please share the connectivity between sat+ sub, crossover freq.. Subwoofer ported (or) sealed?



My idea is very similar to what you have explained, keeping the subs close to the front walls.. But 2 feet distance is a little ask for a small living room..

What was the approx room size where you experienced boom ?



What is the crossover freq between Quad Lite sat + sub.. Hope you set them in AVR... Subwoofer ported (or) sealed?
Crossover 100 IIRC (can't check as I am travelling now) to match the range of my Morel surrounds. Ported sub.
The sub of my earlier HT of Polk 67xx (not absolutely sure of the model) wasn't good for music.
 

apk

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Could you please share the connectivity between sat+ sub, crossover freq.. Subwoofer ported (or) sealed?

The speaker cable from my power amp goes to the lower unit (the one with the sub). There is another shorter speaker cable that I run from the lower unit to the top speaker unit (the one that has the mid & tweeter). I am not sure at what frequency the sub-cross over is dialed in. Unfortunately, I cannot ask the designer of the speakers (Mr Nishi Nakhra of Enbee) since he passed away a few years ago.

Subwoofer has a small port in the front lower side.

My idea is very similar to what you have explained, keeping the subs close to the front walls.. But 2 feet distance is a little ask for a small living room..

What was the approx room size where you experienced boom ?

I have used these speakers in 4 different rooms. Two of these were large living rooms - one 16x14, and another 18x16. In both these rooms, I could give considerable space between the speakers and the back wall, as well as the speakers and the side wall. The speakers sounded fantastic in these rooms.

The other two rooms were spare bedrooms - one 10x16 (placed against the shorter wall), the other 10x10. In both these rooms, I could only give at the most a foot from the back wall and side walls. Lots of boom, and I was not really enjoying the music. My speakers do have large sized woofers - 12 inches. So a smaller sized one, say 8 inches may work better in smaller rooms.

I am moving to a new apartment soon where my speakers will not fit because of the slightly smaller room configuration. I am planning to sell off my current setup and get bookshelves. In my opinion, bookshelves work best for smaller, untreated Indian rooms. A well designed bookshelf can be placed closer to the back wall, and can also be positioned close enough to get a little bass reinforcement from the wall. I am not much of a bass-head, so I should be happy with smaller sized speakers

On a side note, in my larger rooms, I have often used my stereo setup to watch movies, and never felt the need for a higher configuration - i.e 5.1 or 7.1. It gave me more than enough impact that I needed to enjoy the movie. Something to keep in mind if you plan on using the same space for both movies and music. You can even setup your AVR to create a phantom center speaker (though I was just using my stereo amplifier to feed the audio from the DVD player)

Best,
apk
 

arj

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The key here is how you get the speaker and the sub to integerate, and that is easier said than done. While we can technically manage this with a crossover, when you hears music you should not be able to feel that transition between drivers and thats not an easy thing to achieve unless you are dealing with <100HZ bass and very good subs as the subwoofers job is also to augment the bass

IMHO you are better off with a Bookshelf speakers as most satellites have too small drivers to do justice to vocals.
 

apk

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IMHO you are better off with a Bookshelf speakers as most satellites have too small drivers to do justice to vocals.

+1 to that.

There is a reason why bookshelf speakers such as Harbeths are very popular in the far east (places like Singapore, HK & Japan) - where the average dwelling space is even smaller than ours.

I too am on the look out for a decent set of bookshelves for my new apartment - though a small floor stander that works in a smaller space is also worth looking at.

Have heard good things about the smaller floor standers from the PMC twenty series.

Anybody got an opportunity to hear the new Dynaudio Emit series bookshelfs (10 or 20)?

Apologies to the OP for going slightly OT.

Best,
apk.
 

elangoas

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The speaker cable from my power amp goes to the lower unit (the one with the sub). There is another shorter speaker cable that I run from the lower unit to the top speaker unit (the one that has the mid & tweeter). I am not sure at what frequency the sub-cross over is dialed in. Unfortunately, I cannot ask the designer of the speakers (Mr Nishi Nakhra of Enbee) since he passed away a few years ago.

Subwoofer has a small port in the front lower side.

Hope it is an active sub and you have an volume knob on the sub..

I have used these speakers in 4 different rooms. Two of these were large living rooms - one 16x14, and another 18x16. In both these rooms, I could give considerable space between the speakers and the back wall, as well as the speakers and the side wall. The speakers sounded fantastic in these rooms.

The other two rooms were spare bedrooms - one 10x16 (placed against the shorter wall), the other 10x10. In both these rooms, I could only give at the most a foot from the back wall and side walls. Lots of boom, and I was not really enjoying the music. My speakers do have large sized woofers - 12 inches. So a smaller sized one, say 8 inches may work better in smaller rooms.

Thanks again for your detailed responses.. Really helps in understanding.

In expensive 8 inch don't go that deep and 12 inch take bit more space and go deeper in resp & price.. But 10 inch might be better of two?

I am moving to a new apartment soon where my speakers will not fit because of the slightly smaller room configuration. I am planning to sell off my current setup and get bookshelves. In my opinion, bookshelves work best for smaller, untreated Indian rooms. A well designed bookshelf can be placed closer to the back wall, and can also be positioned close enough to get a little bass reinforcement from the wall. I am not much of a bass-head, so I should be happy with smaller sized speakers

Good luck.. Thanks for pointer's..

On a side note, in my larger rooms, I have often used my stereo setup to watch movies, and never felt the need for a higher configuration - i.e 5.1 or 7.1. It gave me more than enough impact that I needed to enjoy the movie. Something to keep in mind if you plan on using the same space for both movies and music. You can even setup your AVR to create a phantom center speaker (though I was just using my stereo amplifier to feed the audio from the DVD player) Best, apk

Your 2.2 setup is a good substitute for 5/7.x set-up..

The key here is how you get the speaker and the sub to integerate, and that is easier said than done. While we can technically manage this with a crossover, when you hears music you should not be able to feel that transition between drivers and thats not an easy thing to achieve unless you are dealing with <100HZ bass and very good subs as the subwoofers job is also to augment the bass

No disrespect to any brands here.. Have read REL subs are one of the best for 2 channel.. Am trying to put together a 5/7.x setup at the cost of REL subs.. So i will need to make compromise somewhere knowing it is not going to be as good as the best systems..

IMHO you are better off with a Bookshelf speakers as most satellites have too small drivers to do justice to vocals.

A single 4 inch driver (or) multiple driver's should be able to do decent vocals ?

+1 to that.

There is a reason why bookshelf speakers such as Harbeths are very popular in the far east (places like Singapore, HK & Japan) - where the average dwelling space is even smaller than ours.

I too am on the look out for a decent set of bookshelves for my new apartment - though a small floor stander that works in a smaller space is also worth looking at.

Got it.. Never read abt the niche brands. Will check on them to get an understanding.

Have heard good things about the smaller floor standers from the PMC twenty series.

Anybody got an opportunity to hear the new Dynaudio Emit series bookshelfs (10 or 20)?

Apologies to the OP for going slightly OT. Best, apk.

Not a problem..
 
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elt93

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I feel you are over thinking. Why are you even contemplating satellites when you already own a decent pair of bookshelves? As someone already pointed, very few (if any) satellites can do proper justice not to mention the fact, that a higher crossover can make the crossover sound very noticeable or abrupt. You've got decent bookshelves, get a decent sub or two and get it placed right. I'm not a fan of having subwoofers (but then my speakers have 15" woofers powered by a beefy amp), but you want subwoofers; so get them, place them well and try to crossover as low as practicable with your bookshelves. Most importantly trust your ears.
 

elangoas

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I feel you are over thinking.

Nope.. Few reasons here..

Am considering a 3 -way speaker that can be wall mounted, want to use them as satellite's, use identical (5 of them) at ear height to have a uniform sound-stage for movies.. Think works for movies well..

When it comes to music, am not too sure as i haven't heard a 2.2.. Hence looking for inputs..

Why are you even contemplating satellites when you already own a decent pair of bookshelves?

The BS that i have are good. No doubt abt that.. But never considered the size to be so huge.. Need to put them on stands, and my daughter < 2 yrs old, bumped it few times..

As someone already pointed, very few (if any) satellites can do proper justice not to mention the fact, that a higher crossover can make the crossover sound very noticeable or abrupt.

True.. Agreed..

You've got decent bookshelves, get a decent sub or two and get it placed right. I'm not a fan of having subwoofers (but then my speakers have 15" woofers powered by a beefy amp), but you want subwoofers; so get them, place them well and try to crossover as low as practicable with your bookshelves. Most importantly trust your ears.

Yes.. Will be getting 2 subs sooner.. That is for movies.. But thinking how can i best put to use for stereo. I mean take advantage of sub-woofer for low freq..
 

apk

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I think the OP is very correct in wanting to consider the room also as part of the equation. This is something that many of us forget easily. I have experienced this first hand when I moved my music setup from one room to another, and could not believe the amount of change that a room could bring to the sound. Mind you, I had tried to optimize the setup in the best way within the room.

As far as I know, there are 2-3 ways of working with the room
- Use room treatments
- Look at speakers that have been specifically designed to work in rooms such as our averaged sized living room
- Use DSP

Best,
apk
 

elt93

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May I know why a 3 way speaker? I am not aware of any which can be wall mounted (I may be wrong though). AFAIK some smaller bookshelves can be wall mounted. You could look for those. That should be doable rather than using puny satellites. Also, have you thought of in-wall speakers? If possible, that could be a good compromise.
 

elangoas

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May I know why a 3 way speaker?

1) Price, 2) Dimensions, 3) Dedicated drivers

I am not aware of any which can be wall mounted (I may be wrong though). AFAIK some smaller bookshelves can be wall mounted. You could look for those. That should be doable rather than using puny satellites.

Am not choosy on any brands in the affordable segment, but like to pick based on the needs..





Design: Left / Center / Right On-Wall 3-way, 5 drivers, Bi-wiring,
Wall Mounts (for horizontal & vertical mounting) 12mm MDF TLIE enclosure
Crossover points 450Hz, 2.5kHz
High-Frequency Driver: 25mm (1), TPTTD, TWG faceplate, TTP
Bass / Midrange Driver: 4 x 102mm (4) TPACD
Recommended Amplifier Power: 20-150W
Frequency Response: 39Hz-40kHz
Impedance: 6 ohm
Sensitivity: 89dB
Dimensions (H x W x D): 76 x 13.5 x 11 cm
Weight (net):
8.5 kg pc. (PVC)
8.8 kg pc. (High Gloss)

The Freq response is mentioned down to 39 Hz.. But if it does anything reasonable up-to 100Hz, i would have 2 sub-woofers to cover it..

The weight is almost the same as Klipsch BS that i have..

Also, have you thought of in-wall speakers? If possible, that could be a good compromise.

Nope.. Can't make any adjustment now..
 

elangoas

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As far as I know, there are 2-3 ways of working with the room
- Use room treatments
- Look at speakers that have been specifically designed to work in rooms such as our averaged sized living room
- Use DSP Best, apk

Let me give this as only an example and not ignite a debate of whether a stereo (or) AVR is better for music...

Few years back, i had been to Onkyo showroom in Chennai.. The demo room had reasonably good acoustics and nicely spaced , about 250 Sqft roughly..

It was Onkyo TX NR 1010 AVR, which was fully calibrated and connected to FS & subwoofer.. Don't recollect the model and the subs used.. The stereo was played with subwoofer and it was so good & rich.. I went & engaged "Pure Audio" in the AVR which overrides all the DSP.. Sound became literally half.. basically sub-woofer was not engaged, but other things which i may be not able to articulate well..

But later i learnt that the AVR had Audyssey Multi EQ XT32 digital room correction and probably included Sub EQ HT feature too.. The difference was significant..

I had been using an AVR with the above feature, but used it only for movies.. Since i didn't have the sub then, didnt try that for music...

Am now thinking on similar lines if i can get close to what i heard with some room correction if possible (Rightly tweaked)..

Don't have experience with MCACC (or) YPAO or never heard them..
 
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elangoas

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Recently got 2 identical subs (rear ported), am yet to place it in my room.. But put it in 2.2 mode with AVR for stereo (in my brother place), just to experience it and was pleasantly surprised how good the bass was in untreated room..

Had set the crossover to 100Hz and couldn't say where the bass was coming from.. It was through-out the longish room..

Also tried raising it to 120Hz, didn't feel much of a difference.. AVr has 150Hz as highest setting, will try that too..

"Integrating" is the key word when i read abt speaker/subs for stereo..

What is a good crossover point between speaker/sub's..Is it the speaker capabilities (or) room dependent?
 

efernand1

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Speaker capability.

Most of us use systems in normal living rooms which is differently shaped and untreated.
 
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