Should Amplifiers Be Transparent?

[ajay124]

In recent days while listening to music (with this thread in mind) I tried to 'hear' whether my system is transparent or coloured.I began with the assumption that it was reasonably transparent,as Bryston is generally considered a neutral and accurate amp.What I discovered was completely unexpected.Something which I have never considered before.While playing classical music my system seems to have five primary colours.
Duetsche Grammophone,Decca,EMI,SonyClassical and Philips.

It seemed to me that every recording label had a 'colour' which was present in all their cds and this colour provided a gloss or a sheen to the existing colour of my system as a whole.

I played music released by these labels post 1970.Original and remastered recordings.Checked the Spars Code of the cds.Based on a couple of days of listening it would be difficult to say whether what I 'heard' is valid or a figment of my imagination.But the initial conclusion I drew was that the signature sound of my system was 'touched up' by the signature sound of every recording label.

I intend to follow up on this and 'audition' my system by focusing on the recording label,on the spars code,on the year of recording/remastering.I am reasonably certain that specific and lengthy tests would also reveal distinctive 'colours' which were in vogue with recording engineers in different decades.Since my system is a constant (hopefully ) I intend to choose the 'colour' of the final sound I am listening to,by choosing the recording label I prefer.Currently if I wanted to be VERY specific.I would choose the colour of Philips SOLO,DUO.TRIO recordings,preferably ADD,preferably conducted by Colin Davis or Bernard Haitink and performed ONLY by the Royal Concertgebouw.
Presto Classical - Haydn - London Symphonies - Philips: 4426142 (CD) - Buy online

 

[ajay124]

Philips Classic was absorbed into Decca in the late 90's and the original recording studios in Holland were shut down.If one wants to hear cd music in all it's glory...crisp,clean and airy...then the Philips recordings released in the 80's and 90's,especially with Royal Concertgebouw performing the music,would be a good place to begin.

 

[square_wave]

The original discussion point was should amps be transparent or not ? .

I think we need analyze the meaning of neutrality in the context of amps.

What is the definition of transparency when it comes to an amp ?

1. Is it a bunch of awesome measurements ?

2. Is it the ability of an amp to make a music lover sit transfixed to his chair as his senses are transported to heaven as he is engulfed in real music ?

If a bunch college kids designs an amp in some lab with amazing measurements and the amp cannot make music, can it be considered transparent? There are many such designs out there whose designers try to peddle them with an accompanying notice that most folks do not want to hear neutral sound but you seem to be a very wise man and you deserve the best I have seen many such spec bandwagon systems which drive the owner nuts but they stick to it with an amazing amount of rigidity because of years of brainwashing by the spec brigade ! I kinda go with Asits observation;

Quote:

The problem with measurements, I think, is that currently there are no complete set of amp parameters that should determine the audio properties of an amp uniquely. That is the reason two different amps measuring the same or very close, generally sound so much different. Given the complexity of the issue, I think we are far from determining the complete set.

Can an amp be transparent? To me, transparency and musicality are the exact same thing. If an amp is truly transparent, it will be musical. It is proof that the designer has a good ear and the wisdom to use his talents well !

 

[arj]

Ajay,
apparently there is another factor ie the sequence of pressing. Every Glass Mother (Master) of a CD is used 4 times for pressing batches of CDs and apparently there is a difference in resolution from batch 1 to batch 4 due to minor deterioration in the master. Folks with really revealing systems have reported differences

 

[venkatcr]

I was itching to write my view on this for a while now. I was very hesitant though, because whatever I have written in the above is firstly a bit abstract, and I have to admit, a bit speculative too.

I have also my views on measurements, on why they may hide more than they show. But that's for another time, if I can gather some more courage to write naive things in front of vastly knowledgeable participants of this thread

Asit, I was certainly missing your participation and I am glad you are back. Please do not hesitate to write whatever you like. There is no need for any courage. I, for one, read every line of your posts very carefully as I know it the combined knowledge of a musician and a physicist.

Believe me, no one here is an expert, and we all have great respect for your knowledge of music and physics.

Cheers

 

[captrajesh]

Although you put that picture up jokingly, you probably had no idea that portrays perfectly what I think of measurements of amp parameters.

Asitda, though the post was made on a humorous note, that is what I think some of the participants are doing in the thread. Most of them are saying the same thing, yet are not willing to see others' point. IMHO, no one is seeing the complete picture.

To me, transparency and musicality are the exact same thing. If an amp is truly transparent, it will be musical.

No offenses mate but that may not hold good. Let me explain. Going by my knowledge of the music preferences of some of the members here, (taking the names as a few examples hoping that their permission is granted) VenkatCR despises Hard Rock, while Denom relishes it. Many members relish Pop, Gazals et al. while Ajay124 frowns at that and swears by Western Classical. My point is, however transparent the amplifier may be, ask any of the above members to listen to the genre of music that they do not relish; I'm sure you can safely assume what their opinion would be

 

[square_wave]

No offenses mate but that may not hold good. Let me explain. Going by my knowledge of the music preferences of some of the members here, (taking the names as a few examples hoping that their permission is granted) VenkatCR despises Hard Rock, while Denom relishes it. Many members relish Pop, Gazals et al. while Ajay124 frowns at that and swears by Western Classical. My point is, however transparent the amplifier may be, ask any of the above members to listen to the genre of music that they do not relish; I'm sure you can safely assume what their opinion would be

I think you are talking about something completely different from what is being discussed. Music taste! That is a different kettle of fish!

 

[captrajesh]

I think you are talking about something completely different from what is being discussed. Music taste! That is a different kettle of fish!

Actually I'm talking about an amp to be perceived as being musical.

 

[kanwar]

@Kanwar can you shed some light on the relative transparency of tube amps and also about why tube amps used in some pa stacks?

-- no1lives4ever

Hi,

I have never seen a TUBE amp in any of the PA stack,except in the Guitar amps from Marshall or Fender as they are world famous for TUBE guitar amps mainly.

I haven't measured any tube amp yet, nor did i find any interest/opportunity to measure it.


Cheers,
Kanwar

 

[square_wave]

Actually I'm talking about an amp to be perceived as being musical.

Perception of musicality of an amplifier has nothing to do with music taste.

 

[captrajesh]

Perception of musicality of an amplifier has nothing to do with music taste.

According to my limited understanding, even for objectively evaluating the musicality of the amp, the evaluator's music taste would play a major role; If the music is not to his liking, I think he would be too flustered to do justice to the job at hand.

I'm only stating my point of view and there may be some who are capable of evaluating musicality irrespective of the music being played i.e. music of his personal preference.

You may well be right. I back off here.

Rgds


Rajesh

 

[square_wave]

According to my limited understanding, even for objectively evaluating the musicality of the amp, the evaluator's music taste would play a major role; If the music is not to his liking, I think he would be too flustered to do justice to the job at hand.

I'm only stating my point of view and there may be some who are capable of evaluating musicality irrespective of the music being played i.e. music of his personal preference.

You may well be right. I back off here.

Rgds


Rajesh

A person who is evaluating an amp will surely be playing the music he/she likes.

I agree with you that if a classical listener is stuck with heavy metal/filmi music cds to evaluate an amp, he/she will do a very shoddy job ! But this is very unlikely.

 

[prem]

Everyone hears differently. Which is why i guess there are so many brands of amplifiers and speakers. I think its best to hear the music one likes on different systems and figure what one likes. Some like details and transparency, some like a warm, forgiving sound, some like PRAT. The list of different sound signatures is endless. Instead of getting into too much technicalities i would suggest pick up equipment which floats your boat.

 

[malvai]

Everyone hears differently. Which is why i guess there are so many brands of amplifiers and speakers. I think its best to hear the music one likes on different systems and figure what one likes. Some like details and transparency, some like a warm, forgiving sound, some like PRAT. The list of different sound signatures is endless. Instead of getting into too much technicalities i would suggest pick up equipment which floats your boat.

Well said! Especially since, there really is no correct answer to this debate nor to the amount of choices available and the preferences involved!

Listen to the gear. If you like it, buy it!

Most often, people buy it when they are emotionally moved by what they listen to. The spec, in today's day and age usually are matched by all gear.

Just go thru the spec sheets! They are usually identical in their read outs! The confusing graphs may differ here and there, but do we hear the graphs? We hear the sound! It it moves us. we buy. And at the end of it, it really is about that!

 

[Hiten]

here is my two paisa-
I mean no offense to anyone, just making a few observations-
the delicate relationship between the human middle ear, the inner ear, the neurons, the nerve centers, the "hearing" cortex of the brain and it's (immensely complex) connections with the "emotional" and "thinking" and "associative" and "memory" areas -
is still beyond the scope of our limited intelligence.
Yes, we have science, tools for validation of presumptive ideas, and we also have the wherewithal to put together things that amaze our (limited) intellect.

Shershah, A thousand apologies if I have offended you, Agreed that there are things beyond our limited intelligence which can not be measured but designing an audio amplifier with measurements so you can get first hand experience to explain relationship and connections of hearing cortex with the emotional and thinking and associative and memory areas will be great no ??

to wade right in with my two paise...
the problem with measurements is that they are reductionist exercises..at the most, they just provide that illusion of clarity that comes with the over simplification...
measurements could get more relevant if one could assign a weight to those numbers in terms of how they contribute to the overall perception of the musical information...but that as things stand is a pipe dream ...

moktan but to build things (amplifiers) we need base (measurements) right ? so best way would be to not "totally" dependent on measurements but how the whole systems sounds I guess technical guys know how measurements contribute to overall perception of sound. There was a post by Linuxguru on the same subject will find out and post the link.

If you count the number of mistakes I make, you will also have noticed I always acknowledge my mistakes and correct them. It is not with pride or arrogance, but I know I am certainly within the top ten of people who write well in HFV.
Remember, you are being watched and read by a huge number of people. If that is not motivation, I have no idea what is.
Cheers

Venkat sir All I was saying is little bit of mistakes can be tolerated. some audio websites have members from all over the world. some members from italy, france and other countries can not write proper english but are highly respected because of their knowledge. A million sorries If I come across as I am counting other forum members mistakes.

Here is link to a post (#27) by Linuxguru : http://www.hifivision.com/diy/7355-gainclone-vs-tripath-t-amps-vs-nelson-pass-f5-3.html

 

[captrajesh]

I agree with you that if a classical listener is stuck with heavy metal/filmi music cds to evaluate an amp, he/she will do a very shoddy job ! But this is very unlikely.

Thank you for understanding my point. All I was trying to do is to counter your statement "transparency and musicality are the exact same thing." Of course to perceive transparency, one has to see the musicality in totality which would only be possible if one likes the music being played.

Ive put the relevant portions of our posts in a chronological order. Sorry for the long rant.

transparency and musicality are the exact same thing.

My point is, however transparent the amplifier may be, ask any of the above members to listen to the genre of music that they do not relish; I'm sure you can safely assume what their opinion would be

I think you are talking about something completely different from what is being discussed. Music taste! That is a different kettle of fish!

Actually I'm talking about an amp to be perceived as being musical.

Perception of musicality of an amplifier has nothing to do with music taste.

even for objectively evaluating the musicality of the amp, the evaluator's music taste would play a major role; If the music is not to his liking, I think he would be too flustered to do justice to the job at hand.

 

[ajay124]

I think you are talking about something completely different from what is being discussed. Music taste! That is a different kettle of fish!

I believe that music can exist without hifi but hifi cannot exist without music.

 

[ajay124]

It is the quality of music one listens to that makes hifi meaningful.The reverse also holds true but to a lesser extent.

 

[malvai]

I believe that music can exist without hifi but hifi cannot exist without music.

Bingo! Most people just don't get it!

 

[Kittu]

I believe that music can exist without hifi but hifi cannot exist without music.

:thumbsup: perfecto...... bien dicho :clapping: