There we go. It buttresses my stand that the parameters being used are inadequate and or irrelevant.
Speaker Cables - I am a believer now!!
- Thread starter reubensm
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Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
I don't pretend to be argue the technical points. It's already been pointed out that my meagre understanding of resistance/impedance is probably worse that, err ...meagre! I am very interested in what the engineers have to say. I try with their figures and graphs, but am seriously challenged, and often only take in the conclusion 
There are ways of arguing, though, where I do not miss some the nuisances. One of the things that is interesting is what gets left out. Mr Risch, for instance, argues as if he is up against a mathematical theorist who has done nothing but make some calculations. Does he even acknowledge that Mr Russell is an audio engineer with a background of one the old and highly respected names in audio, and that includes speaker design? I get the impression that he prefers to pretend that such people do nothing but wield oscilloscopes and meters, and wear earplugs if some test calls for the unfortunate fact of actually connecting a speaker or two. That's not an argument.
It also somewhat belongs to the two-camp black-or-white approach. As far as I remember, Russell makes no dogmatic statements that speaker cables all sound the same or that they can make no difference. What he does is to explore and explain what does, and what does not make a difference and why.
The difficulty is not in whether one cable sounds different to another, it is what the industry has done with this, and the utterly dishonest, unproven and unverifiable claims and pseudo-scientific reasoning that it uses to scam people.
I'm sure that many here are not too much influenced. To be honest, I find it hard not to be, and, in trying, maybe I over-compensate a bit. Maybe the company that publishes absolute bollocks about its networking cables is the personification of truth about its speaker cables. Above all, maybe those cables are good, even if the claims as to why are specious. In this instance, though, I know I am not going to buy anything from that company.
Fifteen years ago, I was a wannabe audiophile, and I poo-pooed the idea that connecting my speakers with 2.5mm solid-core mains cable would be at least as good as what I bought from the hifi shop. I guess I was wrong then. We had a good demo of mains cable yesterday evening!
My other favourite internet cable story is the amplifier designer whose cable challenge is consistently ignored by the industry until eventually taken up by Kimber. It's worth a read, and might even result in some sceptics like my actually buying Kimber cable.
(BTW, I seem to remember that it is well reviewed by Audioholics, according to both ears and measurements).
It is all interesting stuff, and I do look forward to hearing and reading more...
There are ways of arguing, though, where I do not miss some the nuisances. One of the things that is interesting is what gets left out. Mr Risch, for instance, argues as if he is up against a mathematical theorist who has done nothing but make some calculations. Does he even acknowledge that Mr Russell is an audio engineer with a background of one the old and highly respected names in audio, and that includes speaker design? I get the impression that he prefers to pretend that such people do nothing but wield oscilloscopes and meters, and wear earplugs if some test calls for the unfortunate fact of actually connecting a speaker or two. That's not an argument.
It also somewhat belongs to the two-camp black-or-white approach. As far as I remember, Russell makes no dogmatic statements that speaker cables all sound the same or that they can make no difference. What he does is to explore and explain what does, and what does not make a difference and why.
The difficulty is not in whether one cable sounds different to another, it is what the industry has done with this, and the utterly dishonest, unproven and unverifiable claims and pseudo-scientific reasoning that it uses to scam people.
I'm sure that many here are not too much influenced. To be honest, I find it hard not to be, and, in trying, maybe I over-compensate a bit. Maybe the company that publishes absolute bollocks about its networking cables is the personification of truth about its speaker cables. Above all, maybe those cables are good, even if the claims as to why are specious. In this instance, though, I know I am not going to buy anything from that company.
Fifteen years ago, I was a wannabe audiophile, and I poo-pooed the idea that connecting my speakers with 2.5mm solid-core mains cable would be at least as good as what I bought from the hifi shop. I guess I was wrong then. We had a good demo of mains cable yesterday evening!
My other favourite internet cable story is the amplifier designer whose cable challenge is consistently ignored by the industry until eventually taken up by Kimber. It's worth a read, and might even result in some sceptics like my actually buying Kimber cable.
(BTW, I seem to remember that it is well reviewed by Audioholics, according to both ears and measurements).It is all interesting stuff, and I do look forward to hearing and reading more...
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
remind me, please?Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
Oh! On this very thread. Sorry, I was looking in the wrong place 
Yes, it is interesting stuff, although most of the technicality is beyond me --- but, at least, technicality tries to be reason why. Can't help thinking Mr Pass's final comment might be a little tongue-in-cheek
Yes, it is interesting stuff, although most of the technicality is beyond me --- but, at least, technicality tries to be reason why. Can't help thinking Mr Pass's final comment might be a little tongue-in-cheek
Oh! On this very thread. Sorry, I was looking in the wrong place
Yes, it is interesting stuff, although most of the technicality is beyond me --- but, at least, technicality tries to be reason why. Can't help thinking Mr Pass's final comment might be a little tongue-in-cheek
could be..but what i liked is that there is a difference between cables and can be measured in electrical terms. now more resolving the system, more that difference is going to be and the musical experience impact usually would be far more than what is measured.
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
That's what I like too
Well, maybe. Or maybe it isn't that simple. From what I [didn't really] understand, Mr P was attributing differences to also-measurable electrical terms in the equipment at each end. He even finds 'bad' cables to be best in some instances.
Whereas I would not say this is a vote for more-resolving argument, it could well be one for the synergy argument.
Do you believe that we should use equal length cables for each speaker in a stereo setup? Most of us do, but is there a quantitative proof supporting it? Or, take a pair of monoblocks, do we buy them only after ensuring that all the internal parts are identical and of the same make?
As a wise guy once said, hearing is 1% mathematical and 99% neurological. In our audio world, whether we like it or not, we often have to rely on conjectures, sometimes on hypotheses, very rarely on theories and never on laws. I am sure we all who love good music reproduction systems are mature enough to understand this and respect people's experiences, without having to necessarily agree to them.
To complete the thread going into the physical and engineering world, the following is an informative collection from another great guy in our world:
Capacitance is a measure of how much energy is stored in the electric field, and inductance is a measure of how much energy is stored in the magnetic field. Electric waves propagate through space or along a transmission line (cable) because changes in the electric field affect the magnetic field, and vice versa.
All cables have some capacitance and inductance as lumped elements when considered at low frequencies, and as distributed properties when considered at high frequencies. The transition between "low" and "high" frequencies depends on the cable length and the velocity of propagation of electrical signals along the cable. The velocity of propagation in a lossless transmission line is given by 1/SQRT(L*C), where L is the distributed inductance in Henrys per unit length and C is the distributed capacitance in Farads per unit length. Expressed as a fraction of the speed of light in vacuum, the velocity of propagation is 1/SQRT(dielectric constant). Most practical cables have a velocity of propagation of 40% to 80% of the velocity of light. This all means practical audio cables have negligible length compared to audio frequency signal wavelengths, but the cable lengths become important at higher radio frequencies.
Lumped element values of cable capacitance and inductance affect things like output stage stability and frequency response. It is unfortunate but true that there are well-regarded audio components with values of output impedance that make cable capacitance and inductance meaningful in setting up an audio system. A particular example is the use of plate loading for line stage vacuum tube output drivers. The tubes used are small and have high impedance. This means interconnect cables with higher capacitance will cause an audible reduction in high frequencies (simple low-pass filter).
Transmission line behavior of cables affects how they resonate at radio frequencies. This is because the cable impedance, given by SQRT(L/C) in the case of negligible losses, is almost never matched at the driving and receiving ends. Some of the radio frequency noise is reflected by the impedance mismatch, so the cable can support ringing at particular frequencies, much as an organ pipe supports a fundamental and harmonics which depend on its length.
Ringing in cables can amplify background noise. Varying the inductance and capacitance only change the resonant frequencies slightly, so the cable specs do not tell you how to avoid this problem. There have been a few attempts to match cable impedance to load impedance, such as the Goertz flat speaker cable with a characteristic impedance of two to four ohms, but this only helps the resonance problem if the load is actually two to four ohms at, say, frequencies above 50 MHz. Since most speakers have inductance, their RF impedance is much higher.
Cable inductance points to another characteristic, which is difficult to reduce to a single number. This is how easy it is to couple external noise into the cable. Twisted or braided cables have lower inductance as well as low susceptibility to induced noise, but the trade-off is higher capacitance. Since some amplifiers are marginally stable, high speaker cable capacitance can cause the output stages to ring. This is why there is so much variation in people's experiences with different cable designs.
The simplest approach to the specs for cable capacitance and inductance is to ignore them. Most of the time, they don't give you useful information. However, if you have exotic components with extreme output impedance or stability issues, it is wise to see what other people have found with respect to cable properties.
cheers.
murali
As a wise guy once said, hearing is 1% mathematical and 99% neurological. In our audio world, whether we like it or not, we often have to rely on conjectures, sometimes on hypotheses, very rarely on theories and never on laws. I am sure we all who love good music reproduction systems are mature enough to understand this and respect people's experiences, without having to necessarily agree to them.
To complete the thread going into the physical and engineering world, the following is an informative collection from another great guy in our world:
Capacitance is a measure of how much energy is stored in the electric field, and inductance is a measure of how much energy is stored in the magnetic field. Electric waves propagate through space or along a transmission line (cable) because changes in the electric field affect the magnetic field, and vice versa.
All cables have some capacitance and inductance as lumped elements when considered at low frequencies, and as distributed properties when considered at high frequencies. The transition between "low" and "high" frequencies depends on the cable length and the velocity of propagation of electrical signals along the cable. The velocity of propagation in a lossless transmission line is given by 1/SQRT(L*C), where L is the distributed inductance in Henrys per unit length and C is the distributed capacitance in Farads per unit length. Expressed as a fraction of the speed of light in vacuum, the velocity of propagation is 1/SQRT(dielectric constant). Most practical cables have a velocity of propagation of 40% to 80% of the velocity of light. This all means practical audio cables have negligible length compared to audio frequency signal wavelengths, but the cable lengths become important at higher radio frequencies.
Lumped element values of cable capacitance and inductance affect things like output stage stability and frequency response. It is unfortunate but true that there are well-regarded audio components with values of output impedance that make cable capacitance and inductance meaningful in setting up an audio system. A particular example is the use of plate loading for line stage vacuum tube output drivers. The tubes used are small and have high impedance. This means interconnect cables with higher capacitance will cause an audible reduction in high frequencies (simple low-pass filter).
Transmission line behavior of cables affects how they resonate at radio frequencies. This is because the cable impedance, given by SQRT(L/C) in the case of negligible losses, is almost never matched at the driving and receiving ends. Some of the radio frequency noise is reflected by the impedance mismatch, so the cable can support ringing at particular frequencies, much as an organ pipe supports a fundamental and harmonics which depend on its length.
Ringing in cables can amplify background noise. Varying the inductance and capacitance only change the resonant frequencies slightly, so the cable specs do not tell you how to avoid this problem. There have been a few attempts to match cable impedance to load impedance, such as the Goertz flat speaker cable with a characteristic impedance of two to four ohms, but this only helps the resonance problem if the load is actually two to four ohms at, say, frequencies above 50 MHz. Since most speakers have inductance, their RF impedance is much higher.
Cable inductance points to another characteristic, which is difficult to reduce to a single number. This is how easy it is to couple external noise into the cable. Twisted or braided cables have lower inductance as well as low susceptibility to induced noise, but the trade-off is higher capacitance. Since some amplifiers are marginally stable, high speaker cable capacitance can cause the output stages to ring. This is why there is so much variation in people's experiences with different cable designs.
The simplest approach to the specs for cable capacitance and inductance is to ignore them. Most of the time, they don't give you useful information. However, if you have exotic components with extreme output impedance or stability issues, it is wise to see what other people have found with respect to cable properties.
cheers.
murali
reubensm
Well-Known Member
Over the weekend, I tried the same setup - speakers and cables with the Grundig V5000 and the results were much much better than when I originally tried this amp-speaker combo with the stock BPL cables.
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
Don't you find that quite a lot of audio talk, and even practice, is based on theory? An example of this (sorry, nothing to do with speaker cables
) is the thing about noise inside a PC case: in theory, it may affect audio, in practice, decent engineering should deal with it. WHilst I know that very well, and have had excellent results from an internal card, I still give a nod to the theory and prefer an external unit. I have the same thing about connectors and adapters: I am very much attached to having one cable, with the right connectors, between A and B. When I am forced to cable A-B-C with an adapter, I really dislike it. I don't really like using a 3.5/6mm headphone adapter. In theory. Can I hear the difference? Honestly, I don't think so.1. Experience is experience, but the cause/effect thing needs to be properly enquired into. As per the small examples given above, I try to avoid unquestioning subjectivity by giving some attention to the workings of the mind*, and my own is the first thing to enquire into, because it is conveniently near by
2. Many things do indeed call for respect, but, to pick an extreme (sorry, nothing to do with speaker cables
) something like this calls for derision.*after which it's best to just relax with the music :lol:
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reubensm
Well-Known Member
Guys, looks like I've triggered off an interesting debate. Meanwhile, check out the actual pictures (cable layout is visible) in the "Showcase Your Audio/Video Setup Here..." section.
This is the first time I've actually posted pictures of my listening space.
http://www.hifivision.com/my-audio-...ur-audio-video-setup-here-158.html#post507834
This is the first time I've actually posted pictures of my listening space.
http://www.hifivision.com/my-audio-...ur-audio-video-setup-here-158.html#post507834
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Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
What a fantastic house!
Nice to see that you have the hifi in even before the furniture --- Probably the room is a little bare for it yet, though?
Looks like Finolex is getting some votes of confidence among HFVers.
Nice to see that you have the hifi in even before the furniture
--- Probably the room is a little bare for it yet, though?Looks like Finolex is getting some votes of confidence among HFVers.
Nice to see your listening room pictures. I wonder where your listening position is. Two remarks, if I may:
(1) There is huge open space behind the speakers and it must be as close to listening to outdoor speakers! I wonder whether your bass energy gets dissipated without reflections, meaning a little leaner sound. Or, your amp must be very powerful and your speakers highly sensitive. Ever tried the other way round (180 deg)?
(2) I believe in such a big room, the speakers could be moved further away from the walls and positioned to get your midrange right rather than compromising on bass.
By the way, another confession from a fellow-audiophile (not me):
I used to be like you -- I read lots of AES papers and used to flame all the "idiots" who thought they could hear the differences. I used to think I knew so much, just because I understand some of the electrical aspects of cables and have a couple of degress in engineering...I was wrong.
Eventually, I decided to do my own testing and found, and three others independently agree, that there can be HUGE differences in speaker cables...It's easy to be the skeptic...Go out and do the tests yourself, with reasonably high-end equipment.
Note that I was truely unable to hear differences in some of the cables I tested, but the HT cable differences were HUGE. So, I expect it is possible for you to compare two wires and not hear differences...But, you should realize that there really are differences.
My system:
Aerial Acoustics 10ts + cc3 + sr3
classe ca-200, cav-150
lexicon dc-1 v4
cheers.
murali
reubensm
Well-Known Member
What a fantastic house!
Nice to see that you have the hifi in even before the furniture
Looks like Finolex is getting some votes of confidence among HFVers.
Thanks Thad, the room was designed for hi-fi so that went in first, decor is to follow soon. Love the Finolex cables.
reubensm
Well-Known Member
Thanks murali. Enjoyed reading your posts, very informative for a newbie like me in the speaker field.
(1) Yes, I did notice that the bass energy drops a bit when the door is left open. However the dimensions take on a bit of a three dimensional effect. At times it sounds as though musicians are perched on the planter wall of the balcony. Very likeable but I'm still experimenting.
(2) Yes indeed, currently I have positioned them 1 ft away from the back wall and 1.5ft away from the side wall, going to experiment a bit more with this. Will have to do this later on as the room design has 2 corner wooden consoles which are yet to be done. Not sure if I want to go ahead with these and reduce my speaker placement options but there's a bit of w.a.f. involved here
Don't you find that quite a lot of audio talk, and even practice, is based on theory? An example of this (sorry, nothing to do with speaker cables
Suppose someone gives you a pair of excellent interconnects, where would you use them? Between the source and preamp, or preamp and power amp? Like we put water on the roots of a plant and not on the stem or leaves, theory says the best outcome is at the source-preamp interface. Believe me, there are several who report the opposite.
Connectors and adapters do make differences; as you say, the lesser you have the better. But believe me, there are high quality connectors and adapters that make your sound even better. But if you say you can't hear differences, well, that is something else.
Finally, coming back to Mr. Russell, I believe he was an ex-McIntosh man and posted this article several decades ago. Not many cables and connectors were around at that time for comparisons. Okay, he is updating. It can be based on newer and improved technologies, I don't know, but can also be the other way round, like the gear those once-respectable names like McIntosh and Marantz turn out nowadays.
cheers.
murali
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
Reuben, I don't think I had posted this but I had meant to. Guess I forgot.
You have 3 conductors in the flat wire out of which one is unused, right? Did you try connecting the unused wire at the source end only to either the +ve or -ve to see if it makes a difference? Should be simple enough to try, no? If you do try it out, please let us know what you find.
Permutations:
1.Unused wire being one of the outer wires.
You have 3 conductors in the flat wire out of which one is unused, right? Did you try connecting the unused wire at the source end only to either the +ve or -ve to see if it makes a difference? Should be simple enough to try, no? If you do try it out, please let us know what you find.
Permutations:
1.Unused wire being one of the outer wires.
1.1.Adjacent the +ve
1.2.Adjacent the -ve
2.Unused wire being the middle wire [+ve and -ve flanking it on either side]1.2.Adjacent the -ve
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Very interesting combinations. Even I have the same kind of a cable, I will also try this weekend and report back if I can hear any difference (not sure how good my ears are? :lol. How about using 2 wires for either -ve or +ve on the speaker side and leaving at the amplifier? Also doing the same at both the amplifier and the speaker sides.
. How about using 2 wires for either -ve or +ve on the speaker side and leaving at the amplifier? Also doing the same at both the amplifier and the speaker sides.
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
Oh, please do try them out. I hope the findings are interesting. Also, you may try them by combining them at the destination, rather than at the source but I don't know if it will work as well. But do try and let us know.Very interesting combinations. Even I have the same kind of a cable, I will also try this weekend and report back if I can hear any difference (not sure how good my ears are? :lol
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