Speakers - Reproduced versus Live Sound

Hi,

Viren,thanks for the link.

I got off the "HiFi" bandwagon years ago.

Regards
Rajiv
 
Thank you for the link. It was a very interesting read.

As an aside, the 2010/11 Abbas Kiarostami movie "Copy Conforme" explores the philosophical implications of comparisons between a 'copy' and its 'original', as to which is more "real", in depth. A very interesting movie for those inclined towards arthouse.
 
I thought about it for a bit. Personally, what I enjoy about music being performed live, is the experience of listening to it live. The music, though a huge part of it, is only a part of the full experience. The presence of the performers, their actual act of performing and playing the music, the atmosphere, the audience and their reactions -- all this adds up to the truly visceral appeal of live music.

Now, would I enjoy listening to exactly the same "sound" at home or in the car, without the rest of the input? I think not. Especially if the "live" sound was an amplified sound. A completely acoustic performance reproduced as-is might sound good, but I'm not completely sure of that.

But, at home and in the car, I would love it if the presentation of the "sound" was as close to the original live performance as possible. By presentation, I mean the three dimensional holographic representation of the sound, what we call staging and imaging. This would definitely help recreate the visceral appeal of the live performance. But in terms of the tonality and the flavour of the sound, I think I have my personal preferences.
 
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But, at home and in the car, I would love it if the presentation of the "sound" was as close to the original live performance as possible. By presentation, I mean the three dimensional holographic representation of the sound, what we call staging and imaging. This would definitely help recreate the visceral appeal of the live performance. But in terms of the tonality and the flavour of the sound, I think I have my personal preferences.

this is one hundred % correct in my mind too
I subscribe to this
 
There really is no end to this topic because if you even further into "whats false" then you have to take into account the quality of the instruments used by the artists and what devices THEY use and what room THEY're in.

There's really no end to it.

I just want content..content delivered to me through a physical experience. A physical experience I have the choice in selecting as my personal preferences change every so often. What I like today I might hate tomorrow.
 
These two ways of listening to music have their own special appeal. I like it both ways :p

But I may not like an exact reproduction of the "live" sound at home without the accompanying components that make up the experience.

I remember a post by Thad here where he mentioned something that I'd always wondered about: More often than not, the sound of some instruments, and even the sound of the singer's voice, can feel very edgy and jarring in a live performance.
 
As an aside, the 2010/11 Abbas Kiarostami movie "Copy Conforme" explores the philosophical implications of comparisons between a 'copy' and its 'original', as to which is more "real", in depth. A very interesting movie for those inclined towards arthouse.
Delving further on, "Certified Copy" was indeed a very beautiful movie ... it operates at various levels .. at the visual level, the cinematography, the sheer beauty of Juliette Binoche and the Tuscan landscapes is breathtaking ..At another level, the story itself leaves you spell bound ...At the end, you still dont get it .
I need to see it again .
 
^^ Absolutely! It is one perfect package that keeps giving you enjoyment and newer insights every time you watch it. I've watched it three times, and I still find it difficult to express the spiritual/philosophical aspect of it satisfactorily. You should watch it again! :)
 
Defnly will watch it again ...btw, if you like Juliette Binoche movies, chocolat, cache (Hidden), 3 colors - blue --- must watch ..
going way OT now ..
 
I remember a post by Thad here where he mentioned something that I'd always wondered about: More often than not, the sound of some instruments, and even the sound of the singer's voice, can feel very edgy and jarring in a live performance.
I sort-of remember the conversation, but not exactly who said what!

It might of been the thread in which I mentioned having being to a rare completely unamplified carnatic violin performance, during which the thought crossed my mind, "If my hifi sounded like this, I'd throw it away." But, as Hydra said,
Personally, what I enjoy about music being performed live, is the experience of listening to it live. The music, though a huge part of it, is only a part of the full experience. The presence of the performers, their actual act of performing and playing the music, the atmosphere, the audience and their reactions -- all this adds up to the truly visceral appeal of live music.
and the thought quickly passed. It's just that one violin doesn't actually make much sound in a room full of a hundred people. Having to work a bit harder than usual to hear it was actually one of the special aspects of that evening.

If my understanding is correct, High Fidelity was, originally, about producing the sound of a classical orchestra, a string quartet (or something-et) or a jazz band --- playing acoustic music. The aim was to reproduce that sound as truthfully as possible. I believe it still is.

Things get a little more complicated if we reflect that the same musicians, unamplified, are going to sound different in a different venue ... and the whole concept goes to pot as soon as electronic/amplified music comes on the scene.

So what is the yardstick for fidelity? True to what?

(and I make no apologies for seeming to contradict myself in one post. Life's like that! :) )
 
wow! this is a topic i deal with every day and have always wondered how would one ever achieve unification of these seemingly connected yet different worlds.

i am the drummer for the odd band out and work for a audio speakers manufacturing company since the past few months. as such i deal with live as well as reproduced sound through my drum kit and some exotic hi fi equipment everyday. i have learnt to enjoy both and have made my peace with the limitations of both.

the cymbals of a drum kit will not sound better through any hi fi out there. the sizzle of the hi hats and the undertones of a ride and the dynamics of the crash cymbal are out of this world when you hear them live. but then there are the toms and the bass drum which frankly to me sound better recorded with all the conditioning they receive. gates, EQ, compression, all makes it more cleaner. sure some tone and timber is lost.

an acoustic guitar un-amplified again will sound better than through any speakers out there, but then what about all those electrics?

i think good recording is the key here. yes there are exorbitantly priced speakers and well, exorbitantly priced drum kits too. what matters is how these tools are used by us and perceived by our brains. then again, live performance as correctly stated earlier is not just about the sound. it is much more, and in that aspect will remain unmatched.
 
What we forget is, "Live performance" is not like a constant. NO two live performances of the same artist/group is same. So there is nothing called "re-creation" in the first place.

The recorded music is done in the best possible of situations. Might go through a series of retakes until the artist decides the best possible is already recorded. So it has more probablility of having lesser flaws than individual 'live performances'.

Also, you wont be hearing the guy in the next seat farting or talking on phone. Further you won't be sitting in the best possible location to get the soundstage always right in the live performance.

Taking all the above into account, the best of the Hi-Fi system can actually sound better than one of the worst live performances of an artist conned by his wife the same morning. It is not entirely impossible. But to claim it happens every time is stupidity.


And what is unamplified music anyway? Isn't sound amplified in live performances too? What is the purpose of a mike?

Why would the author want to remove room effects which is the biggest equalizer?? A badly constucted live arena is going to sound worse than the best sound treated listening rooms. I feel the author's claims are equally jovial..

[In the linked threads, several of the participants cite comparisons with amplified music at 'live' concerts. I'll not waste the readers' time by offering a response to those, except to point-out that any valid comparison between hifi and 'live' MUST be conducted with UN-AMPLIFIED music - ignore those other references. References to atmosphere, interactions, and inconveniences are not relevant to this piece either. This article is only concerned with the sound itself.]

What kind of argument is that?? What is unamplified music? Calling the artist home and asking him to sing for you?
 
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I believe the author is not denying varying acoustics between performing spaces, or differences in the sounds of instruments. He fully allows for personal preferences, especially in the selection of an audio system one enjoys.

He questions the ability of most hi-fi systems to reproduce the "sound" of real music instruments, played acoustically. Sound, that encompasses the tone of instruments, their timbre, their harmonic structure, their dynamic scale. This is what makes reproduced sound seem real. These are the qualities we should be looking at, because they are "accurate"" to the original instrument. Imaging and soundstaging are bonuses.

He questions the new definition of "accuracy" as currently proposed by the high-end audio industry. Which is ironic, because the manufacturers in the early years of audio followed the earlier definition. Has music changed in the intervening years? Listening to live music will prove that it hasn't.

Viren
 
And what is unamplified music anyway? Isn't sound amplified in live performances too? What is the purpose of a mike?
In Western classical music, an orchestra is quite loud enough to be heard with amplification. I guess that's why there are so many of the quiter instruments, eg violin --- although a solo violin can be heard in a concerto!). I guess there is still plenty of unamplified music in the world: just that it is not the music that most people listen to.

Even in my own area of taste and concert attendence, carnatic music, amplification is, sadly the norm. What's more, this is often badly done in venues with bad acoustics. Far worse, it has affected the performers themselves, with many quite unable to project their voice any further than the microphone they sit behind. This is first-year dram school stuff, and yet artists with decades of "experience" cannot sing to people fifty feet away from them. Added to this... their microphone technique is often lousy too!
 
The reason for using unamplified music as reference is because the amplifying chain adds lots of colours - a lot. These are intentional (like reverbs to make a voice sound much sexier and husky than it might actually be) and unintentional (inherent distortions in the amplification chain - mics, cables, mixers, amplifiers, speakers).

For example, the tone of an acoustic guitar amplified through a built-in pickup placed deep inside the body of the guitar, EQ-ed with the on-board 3 to 5 band Equaliser, amplified using a guitar amp and heard on a speaker is no longer the same as when heard 3 feet away from the player without any amplification. A good example is "Keith Don't Go" by Nils Lofgren. The sound of his guitar, however beautifully played, is not the real sound of an acoustic guitar.

What sounds better? That's fairly subjective but as Blasto pointed out, lots of careful mixing and processing happens in the audio post production stage to make the final product sound as good as possible.

And it is subjective too. See Amazon user reviews of Zakir Hussain's "Making Music (Amazon.com: Making Music: Zakir Hussain: Music). Many listeners seem to think that Jan Garbarek's saxaphone in this recording shouts compared to the other instruments, but I like it just fine. In fact Garbarek's sax startles you in a nice way and adds to the dynamics of the record, which otherwise is fairly sedate save for the occasional burst of tabla from Hussain.
 
Hi,


He questions the ability of most hi-fi systems to reproduce the "sound" of real music instruments, played acoustically. Sound, that encompasses the tone of instruments, their timbre, their harmonic structure, their dynamic scale. This is what makes reproduced sound seem real. These are the qualities we should be looking at, because they are "accurate"" to the original instrument. Imaging and soundstaging are bonuses.

He questions the new definition of "accuracy" as currently proposed by the high-end audio industry. Which is ironic, because the manufacturers in the early years of audio followed the earlier definition. Has music changed in the intervening years? Listening to live music will prove that it hasn't.

1928 Western Electric cinema speaker - YouTube

Bell Labs(Western Electric) had some great people working for them back then .

The WE555 driver very hard to beat on a number of levels... because the WE engineers and designers were the very best in their day, and they tackled basic problems and found elegant solutions.

The WE 555 driver does from 80-6000hz. I am not aware of any modern compression driver that is available that can do this.

I have not heard the WE 555 on a big horn but have seen and heard one connected to a 300HZ horn and it sounded great.

I have the RCA 1428 this dates from 1930 and the mids from this old driver is by far the best I have heard.

RCA MI-1428B vintage 1930s field coil cinema driver sound test - YouTube

The reference for the engineers at Bell Labs and RCA back in the 1920's and 30's was unamplified music and speech and they got it right.

Tenderly by Ben Webster on Westrex Speaker - YouTube

Regards
Rajiv
 
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The reference sound is of course always the unamplified live music. Many folks do not have easy access to hearing unamplified and live music, that's another matter. I have written about unamplified live music being the reference in at least 10 posts in HFV.

In India, in most concerts, the amplification and the speakers used for live concerts are horrible, to say the least. Indian music is mostly based on melody and is usually performed solo, and hence unfortunately some amplification is essential in a big concert hall. OTOH, in many western theaters for classical music I have been to, very little or no amplification is used.

As I have written in many posts here, I have had the rare opportunity of listening to live unamplified music. I have heard many of the stalwarts of North Indian classical music of the last almost 5 decades live and unamplified. Sure, depending on the room, the sound still varies, but if one listens to a given artiste enough number of times, one has a pretty good idea of the tonality and timbre. Actually this is the form of live music I mostly listen to, still now (I go to concert halls only quite rarely these days). Needless to say, I have not come across a hifi system or recordings, however expensive, that can reproduce the live unamplified music. But, if there has to be a reference, live and unamplified music it should be. This is what I would ideally strive for in my system.

For some, live unamplified music can be a disappointment, if they are only used to recorded music played through amplifiers and speakers. For them, the live music may sound too uncultured, too bright and too raw. For me though, music reproduced through most systems sounds too polite, too made up and of course compressed. The openness of the live unamplified sound is lost, this is something everybody should be able to understnad, I am sure, once they hear the real thing.

I also think, quality and quantity of bass is an often misunderstood concept in reproduced music, especially with acoustic drums like tabla, mridangam, pakhawaj etc. With reproduced music, many times people hear the room effect more than the actual sounds of these instruments. Bass extension and tunefulness can be quite different with different players from the same instrument (3 tabla players usually come to my place, and they play on the same tabla I have at home and in the same room, and they sound very different tonally). Now, unless one has some experience of all these different sounds, it is difficult to judge the quality of reproduction.

Of course, in the above I have given a musician's point of view. One does not need to be a musician to be a music-lover. And a general music lover does not usually have the opportunity to hear live and unamplified music. Everybody does not have to agree with the view presented here. But being in music and also in this hobby for a long time, I can appreciate some of the views expressed in this thread: some of the priorities of music reproduction seem to have changed over the years.

Regards.
 
Excellent Article. Thank You Viren.

UNFORTUNATELY, most of the fellow members are setting up or tuning their systems to PERCEIVED sound, ACCIDENTALLY some of the members have become reviewers and authorities in recommending products.

I personally feel the best way to judge the reproduced sound is by listening / tuning the system using the material they are familiar (concert they have attended or recorded) with.

These comments are based upon my observations for past few months.
 
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A beautiful, well-constructed speaker with class-leading soundstage, imaging and bass that is fast, deep, and precise.
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