State of the art I2S connection digital cable

[captrajesh]

@Ravi_d Thank you for a lot of useful information.

What ever terminals you use you need to have enough conductors for MCLK, LRCLK, BCLK, SDATA and there return paths/grounds.

OIC each of the above need a return path too!

 

[IndianEars]

DENOM

Jeer & scorn followed by ignorance coupled with an unwillingness to accept something new was not something I was aiming at but it sadly has been construed as such.

Here is the your opening post ....

State of the art I2S connection digital cable

Neutral Cable - Cavi Digitali

Another 'Neutral' Cable

Gang, lets feast on it

Entry fee: 450 euro per meter

 

[bhagwan]

DENOM

Here is the your opening post ....

This never worked - so I pasted a screen shot :-

Uploaded with ImageShack.com

Thanks Indian Ears - I appreciate the gesture.

I have always come to a forum like this to 'contribute' & more to learn;
My intent was never & will never be to pull some one down.

Post / Write do what ever that 'raises' the level of the conversation & one that can help people to get 'better' & higher in life.

Keep a +ve attitude.
If you know - share - if you do not - open your heart & ears & accept what other have to say;

Look @ [rather look out for] purple in Violets & Lillie's not in cable sleeves....
You will never go beyond the boundaries of what you are capable of - just be a bit more 'present' & 'inclusive' in your attitude - forget the 'exclusive & 'run someone down' attitude - you will be a better & more +ve person filled with energy that will make you happier & proud of yourself.

Take my suggestion in the correct spirit & I apologise for this being a bit OT - Moderator may act in accordance if they feel I have crossed some boundary....

 

[IndianEars]

To me an Audiophile is one who is in the pursuit of better musical reproduction.

( I also think this forum intends to host / welcome audiophiles. If you are not an audiophile or a Home Theatre Enthusiast, then I suspect that this is not the correct forum ).


Bettering is achieved by exploring new ideas and Actually experiencing different options.

If one sits back as an armchair theorist and draws conclusions based on imagination, rather than experience, the person is not only failing in their quest as an audiophile, but is unnecessarily berating / belittling others who have formed heir opinions and conclusions on actual experience.

 

[denom]

DENOM



Here is the your opening post ....

Yes, so it is. You are entitled to construe this as jeer & scorn. NO problem.

 

[bhagwan]

Yes, so it is. You are entitled to construe this as jeer & scorn. NO problem.

:sad:

Sad indeed;

:sad:

I want to Thank 'ravi_d' for his +ve contributions to this thread;
It is appreciated by me. Thank You - Sir !

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

If one sits back as an armchair theorist and draws conclusions based on imagination, rather than experience, the person is not only failing in their quest as an audiophile, but is unnecessarily berating / belittling others who have formed heir opinions and conclusions on actual experience.

And yet, when ever I stray on to a cable manufacturer's web site, I find more imagination that there is in the fiction section of library. It doesn't even matter if the actual product might work, might be good, it seems almost obligatory to sell it with bull-brown-stuff. This is the state of the "audiophile" world? Sadly, the answer is yes. So I'll just be a music lover who also happens to be a gadget freak, but who has a moderately rational approach to evaluating his desired gadgets.

In English-literature classes at school, I learnt about something called the willing suspension of disbelief. We read (or watch or listen to) a piece of fiction; we know that it is fiction, that it is untrue, but we cannot enjoy it while we know that, so, with the encouragement of the writer's skill, we suspend our disbelief. Marketing works the same way, of course, but it is much more insidious, because it seeks, like hypnotism, not to give us a chance. And it works even after we put the book down.

It's not that I don't believe that cables can sound different, though perhaps there is something to be said for one engineer's point of view: if a cable sounds different there's something wrong with it, so the scream of You haven't listened to it, how can you talk about it doesn't apply. I am not able to suspend my disbelief that a piece of wire can be worth hundreds or even thousands of dollars, even if it does sound different.

It is very easy not to suspend disbelief when I see "claims" like "solderless connectors" made for a network cable: all RJ45 connectors are solderless, so it is not a lie, but it is a spurious claim.

I can read about secret alloys in Lord of the Rings. There I am happy to suspend my disbelief (as indeed I do about the whole good v evil thing, which is a part of the world view of many, but according to me belongs in the pages of story books), but I am not prepares to spend money on them. At least "oxygen-free copper," is something substantive, whether it makes any difference or not.

Product claims and marketing (at least in this area, I'm not so foolproof in all areas --- but I'm working on it ) have to get past my brain and my small allocation of rationality before I even give them a chance to work on my ears and the whole complex psychoacoustic relationship between them and my brain, with its many, many possibilities of fooling me.

If anyone thinks that that makes the armchair a comfortable place they'd be quite wrong.

 

[IndianEars]

It doesn't even matter if the actual product might work, might be good.... it seems almost obligatory to sell it with bull-brown-stuff.

So even if the product Actually works, it should be rejected because its been marketed with Purple Prose ?? !!!

Product claims and marketing ....... have to get past my brain ....... before I even give them a chance

So much for an Open and exploring Mind ....

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Yep. My mind begins by attempting to explore itself, and then the minds of others. I've just lost more than than the price of one of these cables because, in a different kind of transaction, I took what I was told at face value instead of properly exploring it. Rs50,000 down the drain because of my stupidity. Could have spent that on hifi

So even if the product Actually works, it should be rejected because its been marketed with Purple Prose ?? !!!

--- I prefer to deal with honest companies. Cable marketing today is where quack-medicine marketing was two hundred years ago. One would have thought that consumer intelligence might have moved on, but it seems we are just the same as then.

The enquiring mind, anyway, wants to see more than flim flam. Secret alloy? And what does that do? And why? Show some data, back up the claims. I wonder why they don't. Sorry, I know why they don't. The emperor has no clothes.

--- I prefer to pay a reasonable price for a product. OK, that includes R&D, but, unless the thing has been hand-drawn, hand twisted and hand assembled, I do not see how a foot or three of wire can cost so much to make, and justify the selling price. So, it might "work" but cannot a transparent* cable be bought at reasonable price? Ask the professionals. They are not immune to mythology, but you won't find them going this far. You know... the pros who recorded the music you listen to. With reasonable-price cables.

Even if one does hand-draw all the conductors and blah blah blah (that's tough: it is very difficult to evenly hand-draw wire. Yes, I have done it) then really, all we would be talking about is artificial exclusivity. The limited-edition thing. Selling a hundred at a thousand pounds instead of a thousand at a hundred pounds. Selling exclusivity.



*And if you don't want transparent, buy the proper tool for the job: an equaliser.

 

[IndianEars]

Thad, Sorry to learn that you lost Rs 50,000.... I am sure that you would have carefully applied your mind for this significant sum.

My personal view is that the mind ( theoretical extrapolation... where often the Theoretical knowledge is way less than 100% ) does falter.

I have found Experience to be a better guide in making decisions.

That is why I Listen to my audiophile gear before passing judgment or making a buy decision.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Often things are not so simple: I agreed to pay it . What I did not know was that the actual work to be done was trivial. Wasted, is perhaps more appropriate than lost... Really, really stupid! Expensive lessons. And I'm sure it won't be the last one.

Experience is surely not to be underestimated, and I don't underestimate that of my fellow members here. I have learnt, though, that there are many reasons why it might not answer, or not as fully as we think. Curiously, I've only really come to question these things in the past few years, and joining up here has made me think a lot more about them. Maybe I should have just listened to the music. But, I remember, a couple of decades back, laughing at the idea that solid copper mains cable might not only make good speaker cables, but might even be the best. Not any more! But nor do I laugh at reasonably priced speaker cables.

I wonder, in the spirit of conversation, if you a) believe what the manufacturers say about cables, or, b), if not, if you think that one should buy them to find out?

 

[IndianEars]

Thad in the spirit of conversation, to respond to your queries, regarding my thoughts :

1. I DO believe that cables sound different and can make a significant change / improvement in the system sound.

I also empirically believe that upto 10% of your system investment in Cables will yield a significant ( more than 10% ) improvement in the overall sound.

To that extent I genuinely believe that not spending the extra 10% on suitable cables will result in loosing more than 10% of the Sound Quality that your system is capable of.

2. I believe that most manufacturers of Audiophile products have a specific house sound, which may or may not represent the sound I am aiming for. Hence, for me it is IMPERATIVE that I listen to ANY Hi Fi component in a known environment ( preferably in my own system) before purchasing it. That applies as much to cables as to amplifiers and speakers or what ever.

3. No I do Not believe everything that Cable (or any other) Manufacturers put out in their prose. That does not necessarily mean the product will not yield good results in my system. I continue to stress "Try Before You Buy."

But not trying just because of Over-The-Top prose, is like throwing out the baby with the bath water.....

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

OK, that is an eminently practical point of view, and one that I suspect is shared and practised by many here. In an ideal world, it would perfectly. My only problem is that I suspect the world to be far from ideal.

It isn't that I think that all cables over and above the basic needed to conduct the current/signal are wrong, bad, or a scam, or that I think that all cable companies are thieves. Far from it --- although I have no doubt that a few of them are.

It isn't just the poetry, either. There is plenty of poetry in the marketing and reviewing of a lot of hifi equipment. Sometimes one would think one had strayed into a wine tasting! No, that sort of overblown talk may not suit me, but where it is intended honestly, I can live with it. But when I read something that, according to my knowledge and experience (this is not to argue the point about whether I'm right or not), is a complete nonsense, then I wonder why I should buy from a company that talks nonsense. There are plenty of other companies out there.

I may be wrong, but I doubt very much if I would ever find myself in a situation where just one particular cable or interconnect from just one company was vital to my system. There will always be a choice.

So, I might, say, look to see if a company sells eg network cables, and if they do, what they say about them and how much they cost. I have a better, personal, idea of the worth, value and technology of a network patch cable than I do about, eg a coax digital interconnect. So, it is a measure, for me, of that company, and accordingly, I might well chuck out baby and water and seek another bathroom. If I find them selling "audio" SATA cables, I'll be chucking the baby out the window and running out the door!

Probably, as with many things in life, much of the trade is a vast grey area. Apart from that, there are two extremes, with people selling utterly ridiculous (according to me) products with claims that are either outright lies or sincere madness. At the other extreme are the companies that sell straightforward interconnects and cables, with decent to-spec connectors, and cable which has been shown by that awful thing measurement to do all that would ever be required of it and more.

Indeed, there are cable companies that make me feel like buying cable --- even though I currently do not need any. Did I mention that I really like the idea of speaker cables with ultrasonically welded terminations? We all have our weaknesses

 

[arj]

...
So, I might, say, look to see if a company sells eg network cables, and if they do, what they say about them and how much they cost. I have a better, personal, idea of the worth, value and technology of a network patch cable than I do about, eg a coax digital interconnect. So, it is a measure, for me, of that company, and accordingly, I might well chuck out baby and water and seek another bathroom. If I find them selling "audio" SATA cables, I'll be chucking the baby out the window and running out the door!
..

Thad, you seem to have a philosphical standing here...which obviously is fine but we have to accept we as Humans are suckers for it and have been since time immemorial and posting on forums is not going to change anything other than having cable discussions threads which go on and on

But then this is not just about cable but anything which is branded and sold. Right from Mountain Dew (..i mean how is it linked to courage of all things) , Axe deos (..i mean really ? ) , Complan (Faster growth..really ? )to Salt in Toothpaste ( this is about as ludicrous as it gets..)

While there are cables companies who dupe and make hundreds of thousands as an extreme case or less..established consumer product companies are literally duping and making Billions for so many years ..and they pay a high $$ Stars to sell it to us and then have to price the product 50-200% just to recover it from us...recovering the money that was being used to sell it to us in the first place!

In the end since pricing for a product is not about Cost but always linked to demand for something and the ability to pay by the target population..and we can decide if we are a "target population " or not. cable companies are using an audiophile weakness to sell these but babyfood companies and some of the above are hitting at a far more unethical/basic level and ethically there seems to be a thinner line between "marketing " and downright Cheating...thats a bigger concern !

 

[denom]

Have invited Fabio of Neutral Cable to join our forum & shed some 'light' on our discussion related to their I2S Cable.

Should be interesting to have good interaction from a cable company as well, hopefully leading to more clarity & knowledge shared.

 

[ravi_d]

Have invited Fabio of Neutral Cable to join our forum & shed some 'light' on our discussion related to their I2S Cable.

Should be interesting to have good interaction from a cable company as well, hopefully leading to more clarity & knowledge shared.

I hope you are buying the first cable after you get enough clarity and definitely not a time waste exercise for the gentleman

 

[denom]

I hope you are buying the first cable after you get enough clarity and definitely not a time waste exercise for the gentleman

Aap k mu mein ghee-shakkar

'Time wasting' exercise for some gentlemen, who can avoid visiting the thread & furthermore commenting on it!

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Salt in Toothpaste ( this is about as ludicrous as it gets..)

Actually it isn't: Sugar in toothpaste is as ludicrous as it gets! This was explained to me by a dentist 40 years ago, I don't know if they still do it.

Sure, you are so right that skimming off some cash from those who are rich enough not to miss it is not very important compared to many of the things that go on in the world, some of them seriously impacting the health of rich and poor alike, but especially the poor. There is never going to be a Nobel prize in campaigning against wrong practices by hifi cable companies, and nor should there be.

However, there can't be any harm in advocating more rational evaluation and buying. There certainly wouldn't be any harm if some of those companies (and there are big businesses as well as boutique companies) fell by the wayside. They may not be Monsanto. Maybe it is a waste of passion, but all of us come here with some degree of passion for pure music and the equipment we play it on.