State of the art I2S connection digital cable

[denom]

Neutral Cable - Cavi Digitali

Another 'Neutral' Cable

Gang, lets feast on it :lol:

Entry fee: 450 euro per meter

 

[bhagwan]

Neutral Cable - Cavi Digitali

Another 'Neutral' Cable

Gang, lets feast on it :lol:

Entry fee: 450 euro per meter

How does one use this cable ?
Do you know any person that has a Transport & DAC that runs on this protocol ?
Please do shed some light;;
Shall appreciate.

State of the art I2S connection digital cable.

The I2S cable guarantees the best digital connection between transport and dac using I2S protocol.

The RJ 45 connectors utilized are the best RJ 45 connectors available on the market and they guarantee full coverage conductors shielding, stable and firm contact, structural stability and absence of vibrations and resonances.

The I2S digital cable is made of conductors of a special alloy (that we keep secret to protect our know how) with Teflon insulation, an insulation with very low dielectric constant insulation . The result is the travel of digital data with an high propagation delay and very low jitter.

The presence of a double shield avoid the possibility that the digital signal transmission could be disturbed or altered by RFI and EMI.

Furthermore on the conductors is added a a carbon fiber layer that absorb electric charges and static waves that are cause of jitter and disturbs on the digital transmission.

The I2S cable could be used for example between transport and dac like Accuphase (HS-Link equipped), MSB (MSB ProI2S equipped), North Star (UsbDac 32, Fluxio, Extremo, 192), Aqua Acoustic Quality La Voce and La Scala, etc.

 

[denom]

How does one use this cable ?
Do you know any person that has a Transport & DAC that runs on this protocol ?
Please do shed some light;;
Shall appreciate.

I was hoping you would do the needful, 'shed light' that is

 

[bhagwan]

I was hoping you would do the needful, 'shed light' that is

Respected Sir,

I am 100 % Confused;
I do not use a CD Transport & my DAC [DAD AX-24] only takes a D-Sub 25 pin IN for Digital Input - so where can I use a I2S Cable ?

Some clarity on the matter would be much appreciated...

A few pics are enlisted - just to clear things up - what I use & what the connections are like :-
Uploaded with ImageShack.com
Uploaded with ImageShack.com
Back of the DAC & the Cable that it needs....
Where will an I 2 S fit here ?

 

[denom]

Respected Sir,

I am 100 % Confused;
I do not use a CD Transport & my DAC [DAD AX-24] only takes a D-Sub 25 pin IN for Digital Input - so where can I use a I2S Cable ?

Some clarity on the matter would be much appreciated...

A few pics are enlisted - just to clear things up - what I use & what the connections are like :-

Where will an I 2 S fit here ?

I meant as in you would have experienced this type of connection in a set-up in 1 of your many travels across the world, after all you have seen & heard a lot compared to the others who 'actively' write on this forum.

 

[bhagwan]

I meant as in you would have experienced this type of connection in a set-up in 1 of your many travels across the world, after all you have seen & heard a lot compared to the others who 'actively' write on this forum.

Sir,

a]
I have never come across an I 2 S on a RJ 45 [cannot remember even if I have]

b]
Even if I had heard - how would I be in a position to comment on it ?
I do not know this product that you have put a link up of.

c]
I have heard I 2 S on an HDMI platform & that to me is the correct 7 best way to do it - MBL & Stahl Tek use I 2 S on HDMI

d]
Even if this cable you talk about is available in India - how would one test it ?
What CD Transport & DAC would any person use ?

e]
Any other Cable Manufacturers you know of that make I 2 S Cables on RJ 45 connectors ? None come to mind - so I do not have any opinion or ref point.

p.s. I know a few people - a lot 'senior' to me that have traveled to many more shows than me & have seen & heard lot of audio gear & they choose 'not to talk' - I guess they have their reasons...who am I to comment ?

 

[jls001]

You don't really need an I2S cable anywhere in your audio chain. Your sound card doesn't have it, nor your DAC.

As far as I know, DAC chips natively use the I2S interface to communicate with CD transports (at least that was the original intent). So there are dedicated I2S pins on the DAC chips.

If one wants to interface a DAC chip to S/PDIF source, one needs to first convert the S/PDIF to I2S. Ditto for USB. There are usually separate chips that do these conversions, and are not part of the DAC chip itself. So these conversions can introduce signal degradation, irrespective of what some people may say about digital to digital conversion being lossless.

Further, I2S was designed to be an internal interface standard for short runs (say from transport to DAC chip) and wasn't designed to be run over longer distances.

I think the new trend of having direct I2S in/out is to avoid one stage of conversion (say, from S/PDIF or USB to I2S).

 

[denom]

Sir,

a]
I have never come across an I 2 S on a RJ 45 [cannot remember even if I have]

b]
Even if I had heard - how would I be in a position to comment on it ?
I do not know this product that you have put a link up of.

c]
I have heard I 2 S on an HDMI platform & that to me is the correct 7 best way to do it - MBL & Stahl Tek use I 2 S on HDMI

d]
Even if this cable you talk about is available in India - how would one test it ?
What CD Transport & DAC would any person use ?

e]
Any other Cable Manufacturers you know of that make I 2 S Cables on RJ 45 connectors ? None come to mind - so I do not have any opinion or ref point.

p.s. I know a few people - a lot 'senior' to me that have traveled to many more shows than me & have seen & heard lot of audio gear & they choose 'not to talk' - I guess they have their reasons...who am I to comment ?

Cool, atleast I learnt something new from your post. Idea was to learn something new, whatever you shared helped, directly or indirectly you did your bit, thanks!

You don't really need an I2S cable anywhere in your audio chain. Your sound card doesn't have it, nor your DAC.

As far as I know, DAC chips natively use the I2S interface to communicate with CD transports (at least that was the original intent). So there are dedicated I2S pins on the DAC chips.

If one wants to interface a DAC chip to S/PDIF source, one needs to first convert the S/PDIF to I2S. Ditto for USB. There are usually separate chips that do these conversions, and are not part of the DAC chip itself. So these conversions can introduce signal degradation, irrespective of what some people may say about digital to digital conversion being lossless.

Further, I2S was designed to be an internal interface standard for short runs (say from transport to DAC chip) and wasn't designed to be run over longer distances.

I think the new trend of having direct I2S in/out is to avoid one stage of conversion (say, from S/PDIF or USB to I2S).

More gyaan shared & again learned something more. Thanks Joshua.

Expected more folks to 'jump-in' with some more info, maybe they will after Bhagwan has got the ball rolling

 

[sidvee]

My ayon skylla ii dac has an i2s input and the m2 tech evo converter i am using has an i2s output. However what I am led to belive that the i2s implementation in the ayon is such that it will work well only with northstar transports and with others it may or may not. So I have not really tested this connector, seems like it a very esoteric type of connection that is limited perhaps like firewire.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[ravi_d]

Almost every audio dac chip works on I2S interface only. I2S for audio usually consists of four parallel paths.

MCLK - Master Clock
LRCLK - Left Right Clock
BCLK - Bit Clock
DATA - Data

When two components say a CD Player (or USB to SPDIF converter) when connected to an external DAC using SPDIF/Co-axial cable the I2S signal is encoded into SPDIF format and transferred via the co-axial cable.
An SPDIF Receiver chip in the external DAC receives the SPDIF signal and extracts/converts it into I2S format and sends it to the DAC chip.
Usually a USB module sitting inside a DAC generates I2S signal from the USB connection and sends it directly to the DAC chip.
Also internally in a CD player the transport mechanism is connected to the dac module using I2S format.
What ever the connection it is finally it has to be I2S for the DAC chip to do the conversion.

There is no defined standards on how two components can be connected via I2S using an interconnect. You just need to make sure there are minimum 5 conductors in the interconnect you using for MCLK, LRCLK, BCLK, DATA and the fifth conductor for ground. Using an RJ45 cable four conductors are used for MCLK, LRCLK, BCLK and DATA and the remaining four are used as ground.
Even using HDMI you make use four conductors for MCLK, LRCLK, BCLK and DATA and remaining as ground out of some 19 conductors. The sender and receiver need to be aware of the designated conductors used to transfer the I2S signal for them to work with each other.

I2S is most preferred connection over SPDIF for short lengths usually upto 10 cms from my understanding.

 

[IndianEars]

Cool, atleast I learnt something new from your post. Idea was to learn something new, whatever you shared helped, directly or indirectly you did your bit, thanks!

Oh ! I would never have guessed, based on the first post of this thread ... that seemed to jeer and scorn.

My reaction was that ignorance, coupled with an unwillingness to accept something new.... is best ignored.

I think many posters on this thread have been magnanimous with their time, in sharing their knowledge and informing the originator of this thread.

I tip my hat to bhagwan; jls001; sidvee & ravi_d ( in their order of posting).

Most of their thread here share some very informative content.

Sidvee, yes, the Ayon is one of the very few products that has put I2S on an RJ45, as it avoids the Exorbitant royalty charged for HDMI usage, specifically for small quantities ( As is prevalent in the Audiophile market).

The RJ-45 interface offers adequate bandwidth for i2S.... which as a post has pointed out here, is the NATIVE interface of the DAC chip. All other interfaces are a compromise. Unfortunately, due to its limited length restrictions, I2S has not caught on in a big way ...

Unfortunately, the Ayon needs series resistors to be inserted to work properly with the M2Tech ( and probably other) DACs... a bit of a pain.

 

[bhagwan]

Oh ! I would never have guessed, based on the first post of this thread ... that seemed to jeer and scorn.

I tip my hat to bhagwan; jls001; sidvee & ravi_d ( in their order of posting).

Most of their thread here share some very informative content.

Unfortunately, the Ayon needs series resistors to be inserted to work properly with the M2Tech ( and probably other) DACs... a bit of a pain.

Sir,

Interesting observation;
Appreciate the acknowledgement...

I did own the Ayon Skylla - but never got around to using the RJ45 on it;
July / August 2010 i.e.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Soon, marketing men will be redundant, and all audio advertising will be replaced with the words Something New ... with an implied guilt trip if we are not prepared to lay out heaps of cash to try it.

Sure, I'm prepared to try something new. In fact there are lots of new things, especially in Audio, that I wish I could afford to try. However, part of my buying process will be an assessment of the company and its marketing (this is a tough one, because even good companies with good products have crap-talking marketing departments) and whether a product makes common sense or not. It is not enough that it is long, thin, has a connector on each end, and is, yum yum, expensive.

(especially if it is not purple hyeah: )

Let us first consider the i2s protocol seriously. Yes, it is new to me, and yes, I am very willing to take it seriously. But first, we have to look and see what it is offering us and whether it has a place outside the chip-to-chip internal use for which it is designed. Is it Fad of the Day? Or is it the interface of tomorrow? If we have a serious interest in digital sound, then we need to be informed on this.

Sure, "secret alloys" sounds like cable-marketing bollocks to me, but only when we have taken a proper look at the protocol can we make any real judgement on how much to pay for the piece of wire.

 

[bhagwan]

whether a product makes common sense or not. It is not enough that it is long, thin, has a connector on each end, and is, yum yum, expensive.
(especially if it is not purple hyeah: )
can we make any real judgement on how much to pay for the piece of wire.

a]
This one is Yellow;
Neutral Cable - Cavi Digitali
[I never understood what colour has to do with it ?
Red / Blue / Yellow etc. Do they change the purpose on the I2S Protocol ?]

b]
How will you ever use this cable ?
Do you have a Transport & DAC that can accept this format ?
i.e. To Test its performance capability ?

c]
Finance is only of matter when a product needs to be purchased ?
Else, if a product cost 10 US $'s or 100 US $'s or 1000 US $'s How does it matter ? If it is of no use to you ? Where will you use it ?

Sir,
Do you know any person [personally] that has an audio system where this cable can be used ?
If so, then there is scope of it being tested - against any other brand / make etc.
I personally do not know of any person that has a Transport & A DAC that can use this format of a Cable for Digital Transfer...
Yes, I have tested - I2S on HDMI between a Transport & a DAC [http://www.stahltek.com/opus_cdt.htm] It was used between these OPUS Products & the different Cables did change the sound - substantially & I remember settling on a HDMI Cable made by PAD [Purist Audio Design] - sorry I am OT here...

We need to discuss I2S over RJ45 - the Thread is about that cable..

Your inputs on the above stated points shall be much appreciated...

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I have come to know that both you and Sidvee have equipment with one necessary end, and now that you have indeed used an i2s interface.

There is no point in discussing the cable unless we know about the protocol. There is no possible assessment to made unless we know if it is worth assessing, Unless we are completely taken in by the cable companies. Some people are.

Colour? It is is a joke, although, seriously, purple is my favourite. It is a joke about my favourite colour, and is a joke about cable marketing. But it is a secret joke, about which I am not prepared to publish any data, so you will have to take my word for it.

(no offence: that is a joke too)

 

[bhagwan]

I have come to know that both you and Sidvee have equipment with one necessary end, and now that you have indeed used an i2s interface.

Respected Sir,

I have used I2S - so what ?
Every one has it in their Digital Component. So all have used it - does that mean they can comment on its operation ? I do not think so;;;

However, I have NEVER physically used a Digital Cable with RJ 45 [termination] to transmit I2S - so how can I comment on a Cable ?
Please do enlighten;;

I have never come across a Digital Transmission over I2S protocol with a cable that is terminated with RJ 45 Jacks - so how can I comment ?

If you have - come across this form of Digital Transfer - I2S over RJ45 - please do shed some light - even the Topic Starter - may comment on his experience with the 'yellow' cable [Italian] !!
:lol:

 

[prem]

IIRC the Northstar transport dac uses the RJ 45. Jacob at Rethm uses the Northstar combo

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Respected Sir,

I have used I2S - so what ?
Every one has it in their Digital Component. So all have used it - does that mean they can comment on its operation ? I do not think so;;;

Does this stop people commenting on USB? S/PDIF? Coax v optical? Nope --- and I don't see why it should.

If we buy a box which includes i2s as a link between two components, that is not a choice. It may well be something we don't even know about.

If, on the other hand, we have two separate boxes, and we see that, to connect them we have a choice: USB... Coax... Toslink... i2s... then we have a choice. We have something to talk about long before we get to the nittygritty of cable companies and whether their offerings are sensible or alchemical.

If it is just a miscellaneous cable that Denom has dropped into the middle of the room, for fun, or whatever, then lets just have a laugh, kick it aside, and talk about something useful.

 

[denom]

Oh ! I would never have guessed, based on the first post of this thread ... that seemed to jeer and scorn.

My reaction was that ignorance, coupled with an unwillingness to accept something new.... is best ignored.

I think many posters on this thread have been magnanimous with their time, in sharing their knowledge and informing the originator of this thread.

I tip my hat to bhagwan; jls001; sidvee & ravi_d ( in their order of posting).

Most of their thread here share some very informative content.

I tip my hat to you sir for being so observant. Jeer & scorn followed by ignorance coupled with an unwillingness to accept something new was not something I was aiming at but it sadly has been construed as such.

even the Topic Starter - may comment on his experience with the 'yellow' cable [Italian] !!
:lol:

Bhagwanji, shared the link as it was sent to me by my acquaintance on another platform/forum, from the company itself. I knew you would 'jump-in' & respond, but was actually looking to learn something meaningful, rather than the "jeer & Scorn" as our dear FM Indianears has stated.

Does this stop people commenting on USB? S/PDIF? Coax v optical? Nope --- and I don't see why it should.

If we buy a box which includes i2s as a link between two components, that is not a choice. It may well be something we don't even know about.

If, on the other hand, we have two separate boxes, and we see that, to connect them we have a choice: USB... Coax... Toslink... i2s... then we have a choice. We have something to talk about long before we get to the nittygritty of cable companies and whether their offerings are sensible or alchemical.

If it is just a miscellaneous cable that Denom has dropped into the middle of the room, for fun, or whatever, then lets just have a laugh, kick it aside, and talk about something useful.

Thad, you hit the nail on the head, but it appears that my posting has 'ruffled feathers' of a few of our FM's

Thankfully some of the other FM's have contributed 'Positively'

 

[ravi_d]

...
If you have - come across this form of Digital Transfer - I2S over RJ45 - please do shed some light
...

When I2S can travel through a bunch of PCB traces between modules inside a DAC or a bunch of wires between two physical components (say a CD mechanism and DAC board) inside a CD Player then why can't it travel in a Ethernet cable?

I2S is itself a protocol. There is no defined protocol such as I2S over RJ45 or I2S over HDMI though there seams to be a convention followed by manufacturers providing I2S interface via HDMI unlike I2S via RJ45. Those connectors were used just for convenience that just needs a bunch of conductors to transfer MCLK, LRCLK, BCLK and DATA as explained in my previous post.

Few products which can communicate with I2S interface are
1. Empirical Audio Off-Ramp USB to SPDIF Converter and Overdrive DAC
2. M2Tech hiFace Evo USB to SPDIF converter and Evo DAC


Providing I2S via RJ45 doesn't mean Empirical Audio products are compatible with M2Tech via I2S and M2tech with Northstar.
Why? As I told I2S requires a bunch of wires for the signal to transfer from one component to another though following a convention or not.

If I dig deep the Empirical Audio, M2tech and NorthStar designated the pins as below

I2S RJ-45 connector pinout

Pin# M2tech       Empirical Audio Northstar
-------------------------------------------------
1 -   SDATA        SCLK           MCLK GND
2 -   SDATA GND    SCLK GND       MCLK
3 -   LRCLK        SDATA          LRCLK GND 
4 -   LRCLK GND    SDATA GND      LRCLK
5 -   BCLK         LRCLK          SDATA GND
6 -   BCLK GND     LRCLK GND      SDATA
7 -   MCLK         MCLK           BCLK GND
8 -   MCLK GND     MCLK GND       BCLK

From above none of three manufacturers designated the pins similarly and hence one is not compatible with other without using a custom cable.

For HDMI the data transmitted is same as RJ45 only using 8 pins out of 19 and almost everyone seem to follow similar convention as below given in i2s database - quick refrerence guide.

PIN #	WYRED4SOUND
	Music Server
--------------------	
1	SDATA
2	NOT USED
3	SDATA GND
4	SLCK (BCLK)
5	NOT USED
6	SLCK GND (BCLK GND)
7	L/RCLK
8	NOT USED
9	L/RCLK GND
10	MCLK
11	NOT USED
12	MCLK GND
17	GND
18	NOT USED
19	NOT USED

If you take a look at the document there seem to be one or two devices using 5 pin din and D-sub connector too for I2S interface. What ever terminals you use you need to have enough conductors for MCLK, LRCLK, BCLK, SDATA and there return paths/grounds.