Stereo vs 5.1 sound, AVR vs 2 Chn Amp, CDP vd DVDP

[gcpraveen]

Both polk and KEF available in profx, I auditioned for bookshelf polk tsi 200 and KEF q300! Tsi 200 was muddy, i didnt like it, KEF q300 was superb, i dont know abt polk rti series, i have not tried KEF q100! But I have auditioned wharf 9.2, i would rate wharf 9.2 better than polk tsi 200! This is my personal opinion.

You can try KEF q300 vs polk tsi 500 in profx ( with denon )

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

 

[kaushik]

Both polk and KEF available in profx, I auditioned for bookshelf polk tsi 200 and KEF q300! Tsi 200 was muddy, i didnt like it, KEF q300 was superb, i dont know abt polk rti series, i have not tried KEF q100! But I have auditioned wharf 9.2, i would rate wharf 9.2 better than polk tsi 200! This is my personal opinion.

You can try KEF q300 vs polk tsi 500 in profx ( with denon )

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

Udhay, that AMP have won all the hearts here http://www.hifivision.com/amplifier...ath-2020-amplifier-versus-nad-c320bee-14.html. Atleast here size does not not matter.


I have practically tested it with DENNON stereo AMP at pro fx Bangalore. Almost sounded same to me.

As per as i remember the speaker was q100 or 300(huh! PICS look same) , me and another FM have done AB test with a DENNON and Tripath 2020 ( SAME chip as in TOPPING)
KEF was very detailed with pretty good in most part of spectrum , flute etc sounded very musical. This does not mean in 19 k it is the best.
But i tested and liked a lot . The FM has limited budget.. so i suggested a DIY FS with full range ALpair 10 drivers.

 

[Udhay]

One does not need 30k for amp..
a tripath like TOPPING will give u a luxury seat in audio scene.
High sensitivity speakers for TA2020 , not needed contrary to the common belief.

If you can go 19K the KEF Q series is very good to start .
Source? why not our beloved ODAC in 6k , fit a ABScasing and save 3K for the casing.


A pretty good sounding stereo setup is everyday joy and every one should setup one.
If you have bought AVR ,adding a cute highQ topping amp in 3K is the best upgrade.

You dont need dolby,DSP for music.. a pure path of signal whre these DSP(digital signal processing) chips are not present ,is required.

Hi where shall i get the tripath Class-T amp... pls suggest... Am from Bangalore.

 

[Udhay]

Udhay, that AMP have won all the hearts here http://www.hifivision.com/amplifier...ath-2020-amplifier-versus-nad-c320bee-14.html. Atleast here size does not not matter.


I have practically tested it with DENNON stereo AMP at pro fx Bangalore. Almost sounded same to me.

As per as i remember the speaker was q100 or 300(huh! PICS look same) , me and another FM have done AB test with a DENNON and Tripath 2020 ( SAME chip as in TOPPING)
KEF was very detailed with pretty good in most part of spectrum , flute etc sounded very musical. This does not mean in 19 k it is the best.
But i tested and liked a lot . The FM has limited budget.. so i suggested a DIY FS with full range ALpair 10 drivers.

Thank you koushik... As you quoted iam fine with KEF... But i am planning Tsi 500 FS with your suggested Tripath 2020.. Tsi amp requirement is 40 to 250 amp power required. So will these Class-T amp will able to drive well these Tsi's??

Also 1 general Question which will be very usefull for me to Decide between Floor Standing or Bookshelves (With Sub-Woofer)is;

Whats the basic purpose of upgrading from Book Shelf to Floor standing? Is it only for Extended low Freq (Bass) response or will there be improvement in overall Mid range or sound stage.

Some hands on Experienced guys out here can comment on this....

 

[Udhay]

Hi all... finally i have drilled downed to my stereo setup options...

Now i have plans in selecting very good sound book shelfs for my stereo set up.. My amp is NAD 326BEE... But for bookshelves i am in great dilemma in considering between PSB image B6 or KEF Q300...

Heard both are very good but is it that PSB sound plain may be "british way of sounding" and KEF sound in more dynamic ???

Any one please provide your personal suggesions....

If any one heard them both (PSB and KEF Q300)???

 

[captrajesh]

@Udhay, going by the thread title, your query appears irrelevant here. IMO you should put this query in a relevant thread.

 

[alz_tcr]

I'm currently using a NAD 2100 power amp, is it not possible to get a similar level of performance from an AV receiver? There must be AV models out there providing excellent stereo sound as well...

 

[lovesmusic]

Re: Why Stereo Speakers are better than 5.1 for Music ?

The power rating of an amplifier has to be matched with the input sensitivity and power handling capacity of the speakers. The higher the sensitivity, the easier it is to drive the speakers. Many speaker manufacturers advertise huge specifications - (40 to 250 watts) but build a protection circuit inside through resistors. In effect, these resistors act as a wall to the power being supplied and do not go to the drivers at all. If you remove the resistors, these speakers will distort at half their stated power ratings.

Dear Venkat,

I am in need for a good sound music system 2.0 or 2.1 at a very tight budget. My DVD player has gone kaput and am using my tab for music with a old altec lancing ATP3.... so u now see my plight.

What will you suggest - in new or preowned - as an integrated amp + speaker. Input will be mostly 320 kbps mp3 files and a few WAV files, room size is 10ft X 15ft at most. Wish to have floorstanders for the aestheics and the simple set up. even with bookshelves, will like to keep it to 2.1 only.

Please suggest as I am almost tearing my hair off ..... budget is abt 25000.
I may go in for DIY also if can save a little and get better music at the end....

Please help. Please.

lovesmusic @ Navi Mumbai.

 

[subabu2002]

the sound is open and like orchestra in stereo amp.. you can hear hidden sounds from a song in stereo amp than dts amp.

 

[shanmune]

I have gone through this entire thread and all the posts only reinforce the point that a dedicated integrated/stereo amp is always better than an AVR (for music) at the same price point. I have a couple of questions and it would be great if people can answer based on their audition experience.

Question-1: As known to all, most of the AVR sets don't perform in the audiophile territory. At the same time, reviews after reviews have pointed out the fact that there are few AVRs (NAD T757/777, Arcam 400, Anthem MRX-500) which can play music in the audiophile territory. Can anyone share with precise details on how the sound quality differs between the AVRs I mentioned (NAD/Arcam) and an integrated amp ? I guess it should be different, but is there a significant difference ? Let's assume these AVR and the integrated amps have similar power rating and these AVRs operate in pure direct mode.
[NOTE: Already venkatcr has clarified that an integrated amp will sound better even if it has similar power rating of an AVR. My specific point in the above question is how the AVRs like Arcam 400/700/,NAD T757, etc perform when the popular opinion is that these AVRs are exceptions compared to mass market AVRs. i.e The AVRs that I have mentioned are claimed to be in audiophile segment).

Question 2: When it comes to AVR vs integrated_amp, the latter is a clear winner. But how about this ??:

A:AVR->integrated_amp (vs) B: only integrated_amp (vs) C:AVR->2_channel_power-amp

Again the assumption is the AVRs play in pure direct mode.

The very reason for asking the above questions - if some one is looking for 50:50 for music/movies and still wants to have an audiophile grade for music reproduction, the above answers would help.

Question 3: This question is specific to AVR owners. In pure direct mode (or in analogue bypass mode) where the input analogue signals from a CD source is completely untouched, the subwooofer gets out of the equation. Am I right ?

 

[shanmune]

^^^ Any answers please for the questions in my previous post in this thread ? Posting this message just in case if people have missed my previous post.

Thanks

 

[jagdish_p]

Question 2: When it comes to AVR vs integrated_amp, the latter is a clear winner. But how about this ??:

A:AVR->integrated_amp (vs) B: only integrated_amp (vs) C:AVR->2_channel_power-amp

Again the assumption is the AVRs play in pure direct mode.

The very reason for asking the above questions - if some one is looking for 50:50 for music/movies and still wants to have an audiophile grade for music reproduction, the above answers would help.

I am using Option A above. In stereo mode the inut from CD player goes to Integrated Amp directly.

Note: For both Option A and C you need AVRs with pre outs. Also the pre out signal level should be high enough for Power Amp .

[/QUOTE]
Question 3: This question is specific to AVR owners. In pure direct mode (or in analogue bypass mode) where the input analogue signals from a CD source is completely untouched, the subwooofer gets out of the equation. Am I right ?[/QUOTE]

Yes you are correct - No Subwoofer for a stereo output from CD player.

 

[harty]

Re: Why Stereo Speakers are better than 5.1 for Music ?

If you are using a optical cable, a 90 degree turn could easily distort the signal as the light signals bounce off the internal walls. There are similar issues with coaxial digital cables as is there with HDMI. As the length of HDMI increases, there is appreciable signal loss. In essence, there is no guarantee that the receiving end's data is 100% equivalent to that of the sending end.

Take your pick.

Cheers

I don't think this is an accurate representation. All three - optical cable, coaxial digital and HDMI - are 'digital' cables. That means, they transmit a series of '1's and '0's. And even the worst digital endpoints are capable of picking up the correct values. I agree that after receiving these bitstreams, what a device does with it could make a significant different to the sound output. But to say that audio signal would be distorted as the light signals bounce off internal walls of optical cable is inaccurate. That would be true only if optical cable was used as an analog transport, and not digital.

 

[shanmune]

I have gone through this entire thread and all the posts only reinforce the point that a dedicated integrated/stereo amp is always better than an AVR (for music) at the same price point. I have a couple of questions and it would be great if people can answer based on their audition experience.

Question-1: As known to all, most of the AVR sets don't perform in the audiophile territory. At the same time, reviews after reviews have pointed out the fact that there are few AVRs (NAD T757/777, Arcam 400, Anthem MRX-500) which can play music in the audiophile territory. Can anyone share with precise details on how the sound quality differs between the AVRs I mentioned (NAD/Arcam) and an integrated amp ? I guess it should be different, but is there a significant difference ? Let's assume these AVR and the integrated amps have similar power rating and these AVRs operate in pure direct mode.
[NOTE: Already venkatcr has clarified that an integrated amp will sound better even if it has similar power rating of an AVR. My specific point in the above question is how the AVRs like Arcam 400/700/,NAD T757, etc perform when the popular opinion is that these AVRs are exceptions compared to mass market AVRs. i.e The AVRs that I have mentioned are claimed to be in audiophile segment).

Question 2: When it comes to AVR vs integrated_amp, the latter is a clear winner. But how about this ??:

A:AVR->integrated_amp (vs) B: only integrated_amp (vs) C:AVR->2_channel_power-amp

Again the assumption is the AVRs play in pure direct mode.

The very reason for asking the above questions - if some one is looking for 50:50 for music/movies and still wants to have an audiophile grade for music reproduction, the above answers would help.

Question 3: This question is specific to AVR owners. In pure direct mode (or in analogue bypass mode) where the input analogue signals from a CD source is completely untouched, the subwooofer gets out of the equation. Am I right ?

I am using Option A above. In stereo mode the inut from CD player goes to Integrated Amp directly.

Note: For both Option A and C you need AVRs with pre outs. Also the pre out signal level should be high enough for Power Amp .

Thanks Jagdish_p and that's really helpful.
Based on your replies, I need some more clarifications:-

A:AVR->integrated_amp (vs) B: only integrated_amp (vs) C:AVR->2_channel_power-amp

As you pointed that you have gone for Option-A, you have tried to get the best from both the stereo world and the multi-channel surround sound world.
Now my questions are :-

1) Which one will you recommend among the below options ?
Option A: low_end AVR receiver with pre-outs connected to an integrated_amp
(e.g Marantz SR5007/Denon 2313 etc. connected to an integrated_amp)

Option B: Mid-range or slightly an higher end AV receiver with pre-outs connected to an integrated_amp
(e.g Anthem MRX 500, NAD T757, Arcam 500 etc. connected to an integrated_amp)
NOTE: The reason for getting the above brand names in option B are that reviews have claimed that they are more musical.

2) You have pointed out that the pre-out signal level should be high enough to get the best out of an integrated amp. I have heard certain AV receivers do not have the best pre-outs (I mean less voltage signal). So it is sort of saying that not all AV receivers with pre-outs connected to an integrated amp will sound the best. Am I right ? The answer for this question might be the same the first question as well, but I am not very clear on this. Please clarify. Having said that, does the pre-out signal quality matter in case of pure-direct/analogue-bypass ? With DSP engaged, I guess the pre-outs signal level matters a lot. Am I right ?

3. Apart from stereo usage, you might be using the AVr+integrated_amp even for movies. How is the difference between the above combination and using only the AVR with no integrated_amp for movies ?

 

[jagdish_p]

I do not have any idea about the AVRs mentioned - I am not an expert.
I mentioned the Preout level as it might be an issue with Power amplifier.
I gues with DSP On the quality of Preout signal will depend on the AVR build quality.

In my case I have to keep the Amp Volume Level at 4.0 O Clock position to match the Decible levels of Front L&R speakers connected to Stereo Amp and other Speakers connected directly to AVR. My normal Amp setiing for playing in Stereo mode is 11.0 O Clock. DAC to Amp input directly. However I do not face any degradation despite high Volume postion of Amp when playing Movies in HT mode.
3. The AVR is not in the Circuit when I use stereo mode. The output from DAC or CD player goes to stereo Amp directly.
Only in case of Movies or 5.1 Audio the AVR+Stereo Amp combination is applied. I guess in case of movies the important channel is the centre channel and you should not worry too much about the L& R speakers SQ.

 

[Santy]

Neither I am an expert but my views:

You are asking which is better; low end AVR or mid range AVR for use of preouts. Answer is obvious. NAD T757 has got excellent preouts. Entry level AVRs generally have cheapo electronics in the preout section though people agree that Marantz's basic AVRs have decent preouts. Preamplifier is very sensitive and the sound quality depends quite a lot on the synergy of the components it is matched with. Even in direct mode, only the DSP and Decoding sections are bypassed but still the sound travels through the AVR's preamp section (in most of the cases). You can't avoid that. It is designed that way since preouts are generally meant to be connected directly to power amps and without volume control, you know what would happen.

When you watch movies on AVR + AMP combination, you will get a better dynamics, soundstage etc (hopefully, assuming the AVR has good preouts, you have a good amp and the synergy is good). But if you ask me, these should be applied for the centre channel more than the L/R because CC gets maximum benefit from better amplification. Most of the sound in a movie comes through it. Dialogues benefit immensely when the system is upgraded.

BTW the above is not the best solution since you are adding two preamps in the chain, one in the AVR and another one in the integrated. Ideally speaking you should have a two channel power amp which you can use for Front L/R directly connected to the AVR.

If you ask me for an ideal solution, presuming you already have an integrated amp :
- To run two pair of cables to the speakers- one from AVR and one from AMP
- Swap the input to the speakers (use banana plugs)

or
DIY a speaker selector switch with good quality components & cables or get one ordered online (google)

Or even better is to get a dedicated speaker / amp setup for stereo.

 

[diesel engine]

Power rating has no value. If you go into the design of an amplifier circuit , a preamp sends the sound signal as direct current. The amplifier adds gain by adding AC power to the DC data and sending the combined power to the speakers. It is here that the design and construction of amps make a huge difference to the sound signature. Even assuming the speakers get the same amount of raw energy, how the speakers sound will vary depending upon how the amplifier is constructed. You can create two amplifiers in the same class with the same power output at the same price category, but they will sound completely different.

When you are adding AC power to a music signal, you are adding a lot of accompanying noise. How this noise is managed is the direct result of the amplifier design.

The above sentences were written by Venkatcc in post No.21. look at the underlined sentences. Preamp sends signals as direct current? then ac is added to it? what nonsense is this? are power amps powered by ac voltage sources? :lol::lol::lol:
buddy, either you have a very primitive knowledge about the working of amplifiers, or you are intentionally trying to propagate misinformation.
for everybody's information- preamps handle the same music signal that is ac at a lower voltage level. poweramps dosenot add any ac voltage to this. they simply amplify this to higher voltage level. and poweramps are not powered from ac voltage but pure DC- purer the better.
then about the 5.1 amps- I think the problem lies with the small freaky drivers inside the satellites of them. they just cannot reproduce the whole spectrum of music. the amps are not the culprits then. use resonably big speakers to get good music.

 

[krishtrinity]

Hi folks
I have always come across this statement that 5.1 is not good from listening to stereo music, but was unable to understand why. I am a newbie to this so have queries regarding the same.

1. Music CD/DVD are generally recorded in stereo format. So when we play music, does the AVR further synthesize the music and split it for 5.1 surround support ?
OR do the 2 front L/R speakers (+ subwoofer) from the 5.1 only provide stereo output.

2. Can anyone provide technical details as to why stereo speakers are better than 5.1 speakers ? In case 5.1 can produce surround sound which would give a 3d music experience, how can one say Stereo speakers are better ?

Pardon my ignorance.

Thanks
Linny

i own a marantz integrated amplifier,the reason a similarly priced integrated amplifier is way better sounding than av reciever is that av reciever has many functions there are 5 channels for speakers and 1 for subwoofer apart from that they should pay licensing fee all dolby and dts processing inside the reciever and countless more functions but in an integrated amplifier it's only job is to amplifiy a stereo signal no extra processing the manufacturers can concentrate on 2 channel audio alone which means my marantz amplifier which is rated at 35wpc is way better sounding without distortion than a av reciever rated at 100wpc.You should also know that how loud a speaker goes depends on sensitivity of speakers,for example a speaker with 83 decibal need to be dialed up atleast half in amplifier for listenable volume,while a speaker with 90 db only need less than half that volume to play loudly

 

[captrajesh]

a preamp sends the sound signal as direct current. The amplifier adds gain by adding AC power to the DC data and sending the combined power to the speakers.

When you are adding AC power to a music signal, you are adding a lot of accompanying noise. How this noise is managed is the direct result of the amplifier design.

The above sentences were written by Venkatcc in post No.21. look at the underlined sentences. Preamp sends signals as direct current? then ac is added to it? what nonsense is this? are power amps powered by ac voltage sources? :lol::lol::lol:

@diesel engine; For a moment I thought that the quoted sentences were written by you. Try to use "QUOTE" facility to avoid such confusion.

 

[nvpatkar]

i am in favor of 2 channel because i mostly listen to music!