The Betsy Baffle Project

Initial Impressions!

I had initially envisioned building the biggest baffle in the Betsy range. I built a test baffle in a medium size and quickly realised that if these aren't entitled to replace my main speakers, then I have a storage problem at hand! and settled for the Caintuck Audio's baffle size just to be safe.

I resisted a thorough finishing job on the baffles as I wanted to ensure it was worth the effort and plugged them in first. I have never heard an open baffle before. From my extensive reading, I was primed for all of its attributes.

I Pulled them as far as my cables would let me, that's 54" away from the front wall, set them 4' apart, warmed up a SET (Single-ended Triode), and pressed play for Woong San to do her thing via WiiM Mini, and a miniDSP Flex hanging around in the chain. First impressions? Flabbergasted!

I had read about the OB's attributes on imaging, but this was absurd. I was hearing the speakers independently with zero centre image. Added to this, the left speaker was louder. It would be as simple as turning the gain control on the amp to remedy it. But what about the speakers refusing to come together as a pair? I moved around the speakers until it sounded "acceptable", including toeing in just one speaker. I had already a long day and wasn't keen on tweaking anything further, but just Itching for a nice listening session. I checked to see if @ssf was thirsty for music. He raised his hand and announced that his throat had dried up. I had just the remedy for this symptom.

As is @ssf s practise with any new equipment, he walked around the OBs with his hands locked behind, inspecting every aspect, announced that the F-15 has a sizeable magnet, and enquired about the newly acquired toaster with tubes. After quickly sorting out the concoction to remedy our dry throats, we settled down and pressed play.

The sound was nothing like I had heard before. It sounded OPEN", as if music let loose, uncontained, unleashed, as if it had no source or direction, it was room-filling like the entire room was the source for the sound! Also interesting to note was that the sound of the voices remained consistent no matter which part of the house I was in, superb off-axis response! Also interesting to note with regard to the measurement of this driver posted earlier is that there was enough sparkle at the top. It was not detailed, but pleasant.

There was no razor-sharp imaging that I was used to from the box speakers, but the soundstage was huge! The image floated 2 feet above the baffles and was revolving within the room, the experience was surreal! @ssf was turning his neck rearwards at times to check on a feeble note that swished past his ears. The image kept jumping between the speakers with no consistency, but immensely enjoyable nonetheless, as the tone of the human voice was nothing like we had heard before. It was palpable, pleasant, and soothing! It was a huge win for the OB project, and we spent the evening rotating different speakers and amps for flavour.

This morning as the sacred spirits departed, it dawned on me that I should check the miniDSP settings and BAM! I found the felon.
In my attempt to test the sample baffle that I had fashioned earlier, I had set a time delay on one channel to augment with the subwoofer. The image is now balanced and centred, and the nerves are calmed! The scale of presentation remains, but no more of that Auro-3d effect!

This is a fantastic driver for anyone considering an OB. A word of caution, I have not tried any other wideband driver to compare. But from a tonality and presentation point of view, this is a no-brainer. I suspect this driver will only improve as slogged. Immensely happy with this, and now I can go ahead and finish the baffle with a nice texture finish!


6AS7G Parallel Single-Ended Pure Class A, No NFB Tube Amplifier

View attachment 72951


Sabaj A30a

View attachment 72952


Betsy Baffles!

View attachment 72953

View attachment 72954


An evening toiled with the Quad S2, Sonus Faber Lumina 1, Sonus Faber Venere 2.5, and the Besty Baffles.

View attachment 72955
Randy's Version of the baffle with the F-15
Size: 22.5" tall x 17.75" wide at the centre. The top and bottom width is 11"

Hi, did you find drawings of these baffles (the curves) or did you build them just guestimating the curves? thx.
 
I wish you had made baffles a little bigger than this and tried to off centre the drivers. The trick is to conceal one side baffle behind.

Imaging and soundstage is the quality of OB which is hard to replicate by any other setup. And I do get a phantom centre image in my setup and it’s impossible to pin point source of sound and every instrument is settled in its own location. It’s a true 3D effect.

Why are you using miniDSP ? Why not connect your speakers directly to the amps ? Those amps are 2A3 and 45 killer in every aspect. (BTW I did some very significant upgrades on those amps prior to shipping them)

Both amps and drivers will open upon every way after 100 hours so brace up for some shocking revelations….
First of all, I am new here, so hello to everybody, My F15 has arrived yesterday... the last 2 years I was reading all these posts on several forums regarding the OB design...and I am close to choosing the Decware ZF15L design, so it will be this bigger baffle, but my concern is this on side conceal baffle to off center the speaker. Also, reading all these threads and posts on all these community sites was leading toward the square design with U Frame, or one side to off-center...or the original OB design for F15 on the Lee site...But, if I go with Decware ZF15L, how to put this side baffle...see the picture, any thoughts? As picture indicate, than this praised curved effect of this design is no longer in place....?
And why is no one talking about this more, when this of center fact is well known...
 

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  • F15 L-side.JPG
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I think people are of two minds: they either use a proven geometry/trusted advisor or they set-about to experiment and find a geometry for themselves. You may "mock-up" disposable materials and test things yourself for quick comparisons. My experiences with widerangers would also have consideration for tilting-up the axis if listening will be nearer.
 
The lure of a big baffle was compelling, and I finally got to it. I had to see first-hand what the allure was.
An 8'x4' 18mm Plywood was cut in 4 equal parts resulting in a baffle of 4'x2' of 36mm each. I had enough real estate to play around with the driver height and settled with a 34" height.

  • Firstly, it was laughingly easy to position these baffles to get a pin-point centre imaging, unlike the smaller Caintuck Betsy Baffles, which were finicky and demanded considerable time to position them.
  • The soundstage remained comparable to the smaller Betsys, which was incredible.
  • They sound slightly thicker in the midrange.
  • The biggest draw in improvement was in the perception of the highs. The substantial increase in the placement of the driver, i.e. from 13.5" of the Betsys to 34" in the bigger baffle has made the F15s open up and sing.

The larger baffles are fun but are impractical in my listening space. The only way I can think of keeping these around would be to trim the width and retain the height. The Caintuck Betsy Baffles with the F15s are no slouch and are an incredible proposition from a sound, aesthetic and practicality perspective. The larger baffles have perhaps improved the sound experience by 5%, but are just impractical for my use case.
Cheers!



Lii Song F15.jpeg


lii Audio F15.jpeg
 
Third Iteration - The Narrow Baffle

After much experimentation, I have settled on the final baffle shape for the Lii Audio F15. The previous iteration of the baffle provided improvements in the scale of the presentation, over the little Betsy. The soundstage was immersive, and I feared I would lose it by trimming the baffle, but it had to be done to accommodate or be palatable in my living space.

To my surprise, the slimmed-down baffle sounds even lovelier! The F15s in the new OB can provide a soundstage that is wide, deep, and enveloping, giving the listener the feeling of being right in the middle of the performance.

One of the most striking features of the F15s is its natural tone. The sound is incredibly organic, with no hint of artificiality or colouration. Every instrument and voice reproduced sounds just right. Coupled with a dual-subwoofer setup, the bass response is tight and controlled, never overpowering or bloated, and blending with the F15s seamlessly.
The mids have a body, heft and texture that is engaging. The treble is smooth. Even though the F15s start dropping off from 5k by 3db, before peaking at 10k and then dropping off the cliff, one doesn't seem to miss anything, as they remain sparkly enough!

The F15s also have an airy presentation that is simply breathtaking. The sound seems to float in the air, with a sense of space and separation that is hard to describe. The speakers disappear, leaving only the music as if the instruments and voices are suspended in mid-air. This makes for an incredibly engaging listening experience, as you are drawn into the music and can easily pick out individual instruments and sounds.

The holographic imaging of the F15 OB is also a standout feature. The soundstage is incredibly wide and deep, with pinpoint accuracy and placement of instruments and voices. It's as if you can visualize the performers on a stage in front of you, with each one occupying their own space. This gives the music a sense of dimensionality, realism and immersion that is incredible. The wide soundstage envelops the listener in a three-dimensional sound field. This makes for an incredibly engaging listening experience, where the music seems to be all around you.

I must admit, Dirac did play a role in making the presentation more focused, and forward. Using a DSP also helps with not worrying about the dipole peak and various anomalies that come with an OB design. The detailed DAC of the miniDSP Flex combined with a mellow SET is the perfect marriage for synergy with the F15s.




IMG_2815.jpeg
 
Love to steal your room (with the gear of course). Lovely setup

And of course detailed impression about F15 left me drooling. What are the dimensions you finally chose?

Unfortunately, as an apartment dweller (so no DIY carpentry) and with no carpentry shop in the vicinity (have to search the industrial area some 30kms away) my F6 are still on their test cardboard OB to get sporadic threats from my wifey that they'd fly out of the window (for spoiling the room looks).
 
What are the dimensions you finally chose?
44" high x 16" wide x 36mm thick. The feet are 18" x 14".

Unfortunately, as an apartment dweller (so no DIY carpentry) and with no carpentry shop in the vicinity (have to search the industrial area some 30kms away) my F6 are still on their test cardboard OB to get sporadic threats from my wifey that they'd fly out of the window (for spoiling the room looks).
If you like the OB sound you should positively look into implementing a permanent solution. A rigid baffle will also help anchor the bass notes.
 
@aeroash I was looking into building some Caintuck size baffles and was curious what your room size is and what are you using for a sub/sub amp? I may have to go with the Fast-8 in my little 12.5' x 13' room.
 
@aeroash I was looking into building some Caintuck size baffles and was curious what your room size is and what are you using for a sub/sub amp? I may have to go with the Fast-8 in my little 12.5' x 13' room.
15'x17'. The wall on the 15' side opens to another room. I use a Rythmik L12.
 
I ended up getting a pair of used F15’s. Put them in some Caintuck shaped/sized baffles. Because my room is quite small 12.5’x13’(w) and a combo guitar room, I’m restricted to nearfield with most any speaker. I’ve tried them on the floor, flat and tilted up 1-2.5”, and the soundstage just never gets much higher than the speakers. The center image will get to a couple feet above them, but anything off center still sounds like it’s coming from a low position. I’ve actually been putting them on 10” stands about 6.5’ apart and 3’ from the front/side walls. I’m about 5.5-6’ from the speakers with them tied in crossing right in front of me. I lose very little perceptible bass on the stands and the soundstage moves up. I can compensate for the little bass loss with EQ easily. The sound great with classical and jazz, but mediocre at best with most rock (except for very well recorded tracks) or very “busy” tracks. Trying to decide if they’re worth keeping or not. My wife thinks even my old refurbed and upgrade d Polk Monitor 5B’s do more well than these. I’m loathe to get rid of them until I’ve upgraded my entire system, which is in progress, to really give them a chance.
 
With Samir (@yogibear ) guiding I am in the process of building one for Lii Audio F6. I simulated the response on Basta and as Samir commented above offsetting the driver rather than centered as in the Betsy models in those pics affect the FR and in a good way.

The response of Lii F6 on various heights from floor (H) and offsets (from left edge of baffle) below. You can clearly see the dip in the FR when driver is centered. See the legends for the numbers. The last two number indicate the baffle size (w x h)

To keep the Betsy shape for aesthetics Samir has suggested a good idea.

View attachment 72538

View attachment 72541
Sorry but what is the F6 "Betsy" aesthetically good idea proposed here? As far as I understand the graphs, the best proposed dimensions seem to be given for rectangular shape baffles. Isn't so?
 
With Samir (@yogibear ) guiding I am in the process of building one for Lii Audio F6. I simulated the response on Basta and as Samir commented above offsetting the driver rather than centered as in the Betsy models in those pics affect the FR and in a good way.

The response of Lii F6 on various heights from floor (H) and offsets (from left edge of baffle) below. You can clearly see the dip in the FR when driver is centered. See the legends for the numbers. The last two number indicate the baffle size (w x h)

To keep the Betsy shape for aesthetics Samir has suggested a good idea.

View attachment 72538

View attachment 72541
or this is what is being proposed?
1709733154982.png
 
Initial Impressions!

I had initially envisioned building the biggest baffle in the Betsy range. I built a test baffle in a medium size and quickly realised that if these aren't entitled to replace my main speakers, then I have a storage problem at hand! and settled for the Caintuck Audio's baffle size just to be safe.

I resisted a thorough finishing job on the baffles as I wanted to ensure it was worth the effort and plugged them in first. I have never heard an open baffle before. From my extensive reading, I was primed for all of its attributes.

I Pulled them as far as my cables would let me, that's 54" away from the front wall, set them 4' apart, warmed up a SET (Single-ended Triode), and pressed play for Woong San to do her thing via WiiM Mini, and a miniDSP Flex hanging around in the chain. First impressions? Flabbergasted!

I had read about the OB's attributes on imaging, but this was absurd. I was hearing the speakers independently with zero centre image. Added to this, the left speaker was louder. It would be as simple as turning the gain control on the amp to remedy it. But what about the speakers refusing to come together as a pair? I moved around the speakers until it sounded "acceptable", including toeing in just one speaker. I had already a long day and wasn't keen on tweaking anything further, but just Itching for a nice listening session. I checked to see if @ssf was thirsty for music. He raised his hand and announced that his throat had dried up. I had just the remedy for this symptom.

As is @ssf s practise with any new equipment, he walked around the OBs with his hands locked behind, inspecting every aspect, announced that the F-15 has a sizeable magnet, and enquired about the newly acquired toaster with tubes. After quickly sorting out the concoction to remedy our dry throats, we settled down and pressed play.

The sound was nothing like I had heard before. It sounded OPEN", as if music let loose, uncontained, unleashed, as if it had no source or direction, it was room-filling like the entire room was the source for the sound! Also interesting to note was that the sound of the voices remained consistent no matter which part of the house I was in, superb off-axis response! Also interesting to note with regard to the measurement of this driver posted earlier is that there was enough sparkle at the top. It was not detailed, but pleasant.

There was no razor-sharp imaging that I was used to from the box speakers, but the soundstage was huge! The image floated 2 feet above the baffles and was revolving within the room, the experience was surreal! @ssf was turning his neck rearwards at times to check on a feeble note that swished past his ears. The image kept jumping between the speakers with no consistency, but immensely enjoyable nonetheless, as the tone of the human voice was nothing like we had heard before. It was palpable, pleasant, and soothing! It was a huge win for the OB project, and we spent the evening rotating different speakers and amps for flavour.

This morning as the sacred spirits departed, it dawned on me that I should check the miniDSP settings and BAM! I found the felon.
In my attempt to test the sample baffle that I had fashioned earlier, I had set a time delay on one channel to augment with the subwoofer. The image is now balanced and centred, and the nerves are calmed! The scale of presentation remains, but no more of that Auro-3d effect!

This is a fantastic driver for anyone considering an OB. A word of caution, I have not tried any other wideband driver to compare. But from a tonality and presentation point of view, this is a no-brainer. I suspect this driver will only improve as slogged. Immensely happy with this, and now I can go ahead and finish the baffle with a nice texture finish!


6AS7G Parallel Single-Ended Pure Class A, No NFB Tube Amplifier

View attachment 72951


Sabaj A30a

View attachment 72952


Betsy Baffles!

View attachment 72953

View attachment 72954


An evening toiled with the Quad S2, Sonus Faber Lumina 1, Sonus Faber Venere 2.5, and the Besty Baffles.

View attachment 72955
Sorry but how " @ssf " "sorted out the concoction" ?
 
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