Trying to make sense of preowned audio gear prices in India

[Analogous]

I have been trying to make sense of this for quite a while and I thought I would seek some “alternative truths” beyond what I learnt from experience. I am not referring to the classified section here, but the wider OLX, FB marketplaces and such.

Ownership history of older and legacy gear is often lost in the most of time.
Used/preowned gear sale prices are “notional” like our real estate prices.

A rough guide is the original price, but beyond that there are no rules. Customs may have been paid if imported, or not.

Most buyers are not willing to address customs costs and international courier costs.

Big brands and hyped ones often cost more. Age, cosmetic condition, repairs done (often not disclosed). Sometimes boutique models that outperform similarities specced big brand items sell for considerably less prices. But most of us may not be aware of such tiny manufacturers and many look for after sales repair and services in country.

What really happens is how badly the buyer wants a particular item and the budget limits and how badly the seller wants to sell fast and the lowest price He/she is willing to sell. Both are closely guarded secrets and the negotiation skills of each determines the final outcome.

There are a few scammers in the mix.

It’s a wild landscape!

Please add, share your thoughts and knowledge on this.

 

[Nitin K]

I find the prices on USaudiomart more rational and many times reasonable compared to even Audiogon that is if you are just comparing prices . The condition of the product is also mentioned honestly by the seller. The seller ratings are given for the buyer to judge and seem to be quite safe.

On OLX/Quicker, it is the wild west. You need to do the research about the price of the product that you want to purchase and not to mention the caution to be dealt with scammers who pose as sellers/buyers.
Also many times the condition of the product is a wild guess unless the buyer is very technically inclined.

 

[jai1611]

One word of caution I would add - Olx as well as some of the online marketplaces are littered with dealers who import used audio gear. Given the fact that used electronics is not allowed in India, these sorts of dealers are likely used to bending/breaking rules. As such, a lot of extra care should be taken while dealing with them. The additional problem is that they dont really know ownership history or repair history; I've heard stories of pieces being repaired by local technicians for these dealers (no such first hand experience for me).

On pricing, the two anchor points to use are international prices (hifishark is a starting point I use) and new local prices. The new, local prices address all tax/shipping costs. If there is no local pricing, convert dollar price using a Rs125 exchange rate to get a sense of what new price should be. These are depreciating assets - think cars, not houses. Apply the depreciation you think is fair on the new price.

As a buyer, I would occasionally pay a bit more than what I think is fair to a trusted seller or for something I really want. As a seller, I apply the depreciation while pricing.

 

[rwnano]

Yes. Someone offered to buy my surround speakers, repair them for some money and then presumably resell the repaired surround sound speakers.

 

[sandeepmohan]

More than the cost and availability of equipment, Trust is the main issue. You can't trust anyone on Olx or Facebook marketplace, or, it will be down to your luck.

There are no refund or buy back assurances so you're a sitting duck if something goes wrong.

There's also no concept or understanding of depreciation of a product. There is a thirst, greed for money, regardless of how old the equipment is. Someone lists a Technics turntable and thinks they can charge close to SL1200 money for some budget low grade turntable, just because it has a Technics badge on it. Such people are fools.

Sellers will demand whatever they like and probably won't give you the full story of the product. Their motive is to sell and make money. As a buyer, you need to smart.

I'd rather pay the extra and buy from reputable places like Just Audio
Off course, some of their super collectible stuff is out of reach, however those are genuine collectible equipment. If you are a Hi Fi aficionado, thats the best you're going to get.

 

[Analogous]

So, “informed guesstimate” is an oxymoron?

 

[surfatwork]

I guess prices are determined by a mixture of demand-supply dynamics, and buyer knowledge. The US and some European markets are awash with good quality used/vintage gear. To catch a buyers eye, whatever you are selling has to be good. Buyers ask questions about history, repairs etc - because they have more than one example available to buy in the market. And if the seller doesn't provide this info, or is cagey about it, their product just doesn't sell. Where something is truly rare, you are likely to find that the same situation as in India applies - cagey sellers and desperate buyers.
By the way, this is true for not just audio gear. Automobile/bike stuff is another good example. I was recently quoted over a lakh in India for a poorly maintained used steering wheel of a particular make. Got a pristine example from the US for 15% of the India price.

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

There used to be market in Chennai where you can get used speakers imported from countries like Malaysia, Singapore etc.some 10 years back when I visited. They had stuff to the range of McIntosh back then. Many olx dealers in south India are resellers of them. Even some of the hifivision members who sell lot of gear here gets them from there. which is not bad considering, they enable access to these gears to the uninformed.

One word of caution I would add - Olx as well as some of the online marketplaces are littered with dealers who import used audio gear. Given the fact that used electronics is not allowed in India, these sorts of dealers are likely used to bending/breaking rules. As such, a lot of extra care should be taken while dealing with them. The additional problem is that they dont really know ownership history or repair history; I've heard stories of pieces being repaired by local technicians for these dealers (no such first hand experience for me).

On pricing, the two anchor points to use are international prices (hifishark is a starting point I use) and new local prices. The new, local prices address all tax/shipping costs. If there is no local pricing, convert dollar price using a Rs125 exchange rate to get a sense of what new price should be. These are depreciating assets - think cars, not houses. Apply the depreciation you think is fair on the new price.

As a buyer, I would occasionally pay a bit more than what I think is fair to a trusted seller or for something I really want. As a seller, I apply the depreciation while pricing.

Using hifishark is the best way to judge the average price. But there is lot of manipulation happening in it to manipulate low prices of gear you want to buy.

There Are fake ads in many websites of lot of gear, with very low prices. Hifishark records all these ads and if there are more of them, we may think the price of that device is that low. And creating a fake ad is very easy. Scammers work with wonderful ways. For starters, taking up pics from an ad in another forum and writing up a description is enough. But google image search finds them. So the new way is to ask some people who posted in forums some extra pics of their gear. Since these images are not posted anywhere in public, it won’t be found out.
I live in Europe and the “Kleinanzeigen” website is the equivalent to olx here. Somehow, the scammers are now hacking lot of accounts here and everyday there are lot of incidents of people losing money. People trust the accounts which are there for long and somehow it appears these are hackable. What this means to hifishark is fake low pricing as it takes inputs from all websites like this.

For lowballing something, which one needs the unethical way is to post the ad of th same thing with different pics you need from another account with a very low price. Then the owner of the ads will be forced to sell it low eventually. But I guess that happens in olx too.

 

[Analogous]

There used to be market in Chennai where you can get used speakers imported from countries like Malaysia, Singapore etc.some 10 years back when I visited. They had stuff to the range of McIntosh back then. Many olx dealers in south India are resellers of them. Even some of the hifivision members who sell lot of gear here gets them from there. which is not bad considering, they enable access to these gears to the uninformed.

There was a row of tiny shops selling inexpensive imported electronics, luggage, perfumes, clothes, phones, camera, watches and occasionally audio gear. It was called Burma Bazaar. I think evolving times have diminished its presence. I recall it was busling, husling with an excitement bordering on the legal limits.

i have bought from a couple of resellers in Chennai, a couple of them in Bangalor, one in Kerala and one in Mumbai. Never had a bad experience so far. I think they are aware of customer satisfaction and word of mouth referrals. Two of them even are open to part exchange of equipment I did not want no more. i even could ask for particular brand and model and received it after a wait of few months.

Again, while the gear was flawless, and worked perfectly well, past history of ownership was hazy. But then we buy gear to listen, not to sell, hoping for that magical synergy… expensive experiments, good education though.

 

[Kannan]

With expensive electronics, it is a hit and miss when getting it from local dealers. At first the resale market is highly disorganised and most collect the cheapest stuff from places like Singapore and offload it at good profit locally.
The cream of the used market stuff from Singapore and Malaysia are picked up by Vietnam and other countries as the dealers there offer better prices and those markers are better organised.

If one can source from US or Europe via reputed online platforms, it is in my opinion, a lesser risk. Ofcourse you need to find a way to get to India as custom duties can be as high as 70%.

 

[Analogous]

To add to the confusion some vintage pieces seem to sell for more than what they cost decades ago.
so used gear specially if they have achieved legendary status can sell at higher prices even if parts replacement and repair is more likely
i am sure this will not make sense to non aficionados

 

[Kannan]

To add to the confusion some vintage pieces seem to sell for more than what they cost decades ago.
so used gear specially if they have achieved legendary status can sell at higher prices even if parts replacement and repair is more likely
i am sure this will not make sense to non aficionados

yes....this is true with almost everything. they can be ten to 50 times more expensive. But they have a much smaller target market

 

[arj]

To add to the confusion some vintage pieces seem to sell for more than what they cost decades ago.
so used gear specially if they have achieved legendary status can sell at higher prices even if parts replacement and repair is more likely
i am sure this will not make sense to non aficionados

Used Hifi also cannot move away from the human/economic behaviour of Demand and Supply
while demand is a combination of so many factors like Aspirational value, brand value, awareness of quality in sound and most etc etc..supply in the end is availability tempered by used hifi process in Europe and US

In the end the "right" price which I try to follow is a factor of 1. cost - depreciation of the product and 2. Used prices abroad, and try to pick a value !

Some vintage has an additional value while others will just have a junk value hence it wold depend on how discerning the buyer is and how good the product being sold is !

 

[jai1611]

Using hifishark is the best way to judge the average price. But there is lot of manipulation happening in it to manipulate low prices of gear you want to buy.

There Are fake ads in many websites of lot of gear, with very low prices. Hifishark records all these ads and if there are more of them, we may think the price of that device is that low. And creating a fake ad is very easy. Scammers work with wonderful ways. For starters, taking up pics from an ad in another forum and writing up a description is enough. But google image search finds them. So the new way is to ask some people who posted in forums some extra pics of their gear. Since these images are not posted anywhere in public, it won’t be found out.
I live in Europe and the “Kleinanzeigen” website is the equivalent to olx here. Somehow, the scammers are now hacking lot of accounts here and everyday there are lot of incidents of people losing money. People trust the accounts which are there for long and somehow it appears these are hackable. What this means to hifishark is fake low pricing as it takes inputs from all websites like this.

For lowballing something, which one needs the unethical way is to post the ad of th same thing with different pics you need from another account with a very low price. Then the owner of the ads will be forced to sell it low eventually. But I guess that happens in olx too.

Thanks for the extra pointers on hifishark. I use it to find listings on audio forums and reputed marketplaces like USaudiomart/Audiogon. I ignore the European ones as they are foreign language and the Japanes Yahoo auctions as those are opaque.

Hifishark just makes it a lot easier to find them. Individually searching forums would be too painful.

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

Again, while the gear was flawless, and worked perfectly well, past history of ownership was hazy. But then we buy gear to listen, not to sell, hoping for that magical synergy… expensive experiments, good education though.

the hobby gets expensive even for the ones with deep pockets, as we go up the ladder. Most of us won’t settle with anything, and experimenting with gear is the hobby as much as listening music with it! So, getting a good value for your gear is also important to sustain the hobby.

yes....this is true with almost everything. they can be ten to 50 times more expensive. But they have a much smaller target market

A good example is the NAD 3020. Damn thing never loses value.

 

[Analogous]

Yes. Someone offered to buy my surround speakers, repair them for some money and then presumably resell the repaired surround sound speakers.

That’s legal.
If he discloses the repair to the buyer it’s ethically correct too?

 

[Analogous]

the hobby gets expensive even for the ones with deep pockets, as we go up the ladder. Most of us won’t settle with anything, and experimenting with gear is the hobby as much as listening music with it! So, getting a good value for your gear is also important to sustain the hobby.


A good example is the NAD 3020. Damn thing never loses value.

I think that’s a fantastic description of the condition that afflicts many of us !

 

[Analogous]

I also recognise that in India the we can find audio equipment in the used market that is not available with any retailer.

 

[drkrack]

I also recognise that in India the we can find audio equipment in the used market that is not available with any retailer.

Like 4 Wheelers that Fail Pollution test in metros are Sold to districts and Remote Areas, Vintage and Junk Electronics is Sold to developing countries like ours. Add to that the Astronomical Current Prices for new gear which are Totally disconnected to Mass Aspirations, Lazy brands trying to squeeze customers for brand name with Costlier Newer Versions without any actual breakthrough in R&D department.

From Indian perspective its just demand and supply mismatch for certain brands and models, coupled with unreasonable price hike in post Covid19 era, the pre-owned gear is also getting unreasonable valuation.

 

[Analogous]

Like 4 Wheelers that Fail Pollution test in metros are Sold to districts and Remote Areas, Vintage and Junk Electronics is Sold to developing countries like ours. Add to that the Astronomical Current Prices for new gear which are Totally disconnected to Mass Aspirations, Lazy brands trying to squeeze customers for brand name with Costlier Newer Versions without any actual breakthrough in R&D department.

From Indian perspective its just demand and supply mismatch for certain brands and models, coupled with unreasonable price hike in post Covid19 era, the pre-owned gear is also getting unreasonable valuation.

While you may be right about supply-demand mismatch and all round price hikes in our economy, there are strict restrictions on importing used cars in India. Selling polluting vehicles that are past their registration life to buyers in rural areas is sadly again a failure of our public admin systems.

I believe there are recent additional restrictions on import of used electronics and computers too. Not sure if this applies to used audio equipment specifically.