Understanding Amplifier power/ratings

What i have mentioned is that 1 watt or more watts makes no difference to sound quality as long as the power is clean without distortion.
A speaker for producing 70db at 1 meter may need 1 watt or more watts depending on its efficiency and other parameters, the ear does not care as long as the delivery is clean.

"makes no difference in sound quality" you say.

Ohh, but in real life, there certainly is a difference in sound quality, or the word you use above,"delivery".

Any amp, designed to be more than two watts, will not be able to compete, performance-wise, when playing speakers that operate in the 1 Watt or less power realm 95% of the time. ( As do well-designed 101 dB and higher speakers. )

Let us get real. As an actual speaker example : below is mine - about 103 dB.

Front-horn loaded, direct radiating, time aligned voice coils, a simple two-way.

A vintage 515B ALTEC 15 inch woofer I play full range. So it has no crossover losses.

Wiring, with silver content, is the equivalent of 8 AWG.

The speaker wiring runs all the way from the tube amp's CARDAS Speaker Posts, to the soldered terminals attaching the woofer's voice coil wires.

The low powered amplifier itself - is a unique in audio - optimized for pulsed music playback.

In 2021, fortunately, one example of this type of amplifier exists, inside India.


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If you're considering emotiva, their ODM seems to be providing amps at a decent price point.
I came across this thread y'day which might help with the links: https://www.hifivision.com/threads/tonewinner-at-300-7-3-6-av-processor.85762/

Also, if you're looking for stereo only and have the budget, consider Purifi based (Nord, Apollon, Audiophonics) or GaN based (Starkrimson) as the endgame purchase. They have glowing reviews almost everywhere
I agree with the GaN base amps.

I am definitely keeping a watch .....the efficiency and performance is ....let's say the tech is more suited for 21st :)
 
For one, to state that high efficient speakers sound the best is factually incorrect.
Be it high efficiency or low efficiency speakers, the way the speaker produces the sound remains the same, the difference being one needs higher power to be pushed depending on the voice coil, cone material and the Gauss and some other factors.

As long as both produce the same SPL at say 1 meter the ear would hardly know how much power it is being driven with. 1 watt or 100 watt if the THD is well outside audible limits, it does not matter to the ears.

Each speaker design, be it full range or multi-way remains a trade-off here and there with some perfections and imperfections.

For those who prefer only tube sound, a high efficiency speaker makes both economical as well as build sense due to complexity of designing amps with high power tubes.
That said I had last year heard a NAT Audio GM hundred DHT tube based amplifier driving a pair of floor standing ROSSO speakers in AVLounge showroom and the experience was breathtaking.
I have also extensively heard 15 or 18 inch Altec Alnico based theater speakers from the 60s driven by a DHT very low power amp and also with a SET Class A SS amp. It was also a great combination and the music was enjoyable.

The cost variance between the above 2 setup is quite humongous and so was the performance difference.

For someone totally into tube sound, taking the high power route can be challenging due to complexities of taming very high voltages especially if you are looking at Single ended topology.
Here high efficient speakers help in choosing tube with lower power.

When one takes the SS route, the cost of power per watt is very less now, though still a Class A design will be large for higher power due to poor efficiency. Class AB and especially Class D has matured immensely.

So now due to advancement in technology and miniaturisation and increased efficiency, we have amplifiers that can be conveniently matched with power hungry speakers.

Also Class D has made way for active speaker designs where the manufacturer/user can have full control to fine tune the setup in the digital domain with sound processors.
I agree to most that is being said.

And as far as speakers I feel it's not only the efficiency that matters - the overall acoustic design and measurement of the speaker is the most critical factor.

IMO I don't really agree that the amplifier is the weakest link. But rather I do agree that the speaker-amp combo is the factor which ultimately produces the sound that we hear....and the better the speaker, more accurate the sonic production. (I am not opening a Pandora's box....but coming to such conclusions as we are now currently in a tech state where distortions are less in DACs, Amps - just look at the changes of THDs over the years. Objectively we getting better and better products which measures well - which means we'll engineered ones. The subjective aspect do however remains as it is - subjective and personal, as it is a choice of taste and aesthetics. Each one of us have different perception of a same measuring amp/dac/speaker.)
 
Any amp, designed to be more than two watts, will not be able to compete, performance-wise, when playing speakers that operate in the 1 Watt or less power realm 95% of the time. ( As do well-designed 101 dB and higher speakers. )
Fine sir. Guess this will remain an endless talk :) . To each his own ultimately, as long as the gear satiates his/her music enjoyment desire.
 
All this confusion and variables is mainly because speakers need AC voltage to function and would blow if it was fed a constant DC voltage
Also speaker is not a static load depending on the music power and the amp would need the capability to handle 80db to 103db of details (transients) is a music track at the same time (cresendos) or within extremely short span.
Amplifier power involves multitude of variables like its fluctuating ac output (that is why vaguely referred as RMS power, )the varying load of the speaker at different frequencies, speaker sensitivity, preamp output mpedance and sensitivity to name a few.
Class A is always in on state at a higher bias, so can broadly deliver instant current and can sound louder at lower watt than othe Class amps. But Class A are inefficient heat guzzlers and impractical for proaudio gear or when it comes to miniaturization.
All said and done, my ears are still Class A friendly given under the same parameters comparison. I use Class A at home and all Class D in my car.
A is 5 watt and the D 15 watt
THanks ! this is very helpful.

what does 'class a is always in on state at a higher bias' mean ? So one should be asking the capacitance (ability to send current instantly) for class d amps ? like micro farhad, or is all this pointless and one just has to hear the amp with the speakers ?
 
what does 'class a is always in on state at a higher bias' mean
Simple explanation - in a class A/B for example - lets say 50WPC class A/B @8Ohms has a bias of 10% so the first 5W is class A and the remaining 45W is Class B. Now as soon as you switch on the amp - the first 5 WPC is always available, that 5WPC per channel is immediately being drawn (in case of a PA, in case of an integrated the additional power required by the pre/dac etc will also come in). When you start playing the music or put in the signal whether or not depending on your required listening DP level, the amp is putting in 1 or 2 W in all per channel your full 5 is being drawn in (depending on the music requirement - power constantly fluctuates). The remaining unused power is being thrown out as heat. In case of higher demand - lets say 8W - the class B then keeps switching on ON DEMAND.

The always on means - the first 5 watts is always available, whether you need 1 or 2WPC, so instant demand of music upto 5 watts will be covered without needing the switching of the B.

For the more technical explanation - I will leave it to the masters.
 
Sorry about that, the Thread Title is :

Class A vs Class A vs Class AB​


The Thread link is

 
Sorry about that, the Thread Title is :

Class A vs Class A vs Class AB​


The Thread link is

This is gold! I am compiling a list of easy to understand study/reference material - do you mind if I add the linked post to that list?
 
Sorry about that, the Thread Title is :

Class A vs Class A vs Class AB​


The Thread link is

I have had the pleasure of listening to the Saga monoblocks driven by the Saga pre that you have referred in the article.
Keeping aside its price (I am still counting the number of zeros), its music scale is amazing and for someone with that kind of money to spend, would be one of definite choices.
But Siltech has stopped manufacturing amps is what I heard and is concentrating on its cable business.

The Siltech Saga setup
 
The million dollar complete MBL ( Germany ) home hi fi system, to my ears, sounds wonderful. It is comprised of their Radialstrayler electrostatic omni speakers, and their MBL high powered solid state power amps.

Will anyone reading this, buy this MBL complete system and give it as a gift, for me to use???

Haha! I can totally relate, having heard all MBL systems myself. They do sound like a million buck.

Another one that can match the finesse of those - a system around the Focal Grande Utopias :)
 
we are both quite confused it seems.... even our good friend pal couldn't explain it cleanly enough

He however says something very interesting - 'amps don't push power' but then confuses me when he mentions turning the volume knob...

Hope you are thoroughly confused by now ;)

Well, I can try to get you out of here. Let's see!

(a) "amps don't push power" -- 100% correct! In fact, this is the best way to understand an amplifier. It may seem counter-intuitive to begin with, but as you stay on, this will begin making sense.

(b) "speakers are reactive loads" -- If an amplifier is asked to play one particular frequency at one particular SPL in to one specific transducer (speaker), it will behave like an ideal amplifier. Unfortunately, real world applications are different. A typical loudspeaker system is not just one transducer playing one note at one SPL. It's a combination of multiple transducers (each with usually varying electrical characteristics) and electronic circuit to coordinate among them (basically frequency/power division). Hence, a typical loudspeaker system is a complex electrical circuit with a not so straight forward characteristic. When they are delivered power or when they draw power their characteristics changes with frequency, amplitude etc. Hence, they are not just a simple load (like a resistor) but a reactive load.

(c) About turning the knob -- let me try with a simple analogy.

Think of an amplifier as a water tank. This water tank (the amplifier) has a reserve of electrical power. This tank is connected to another tank where the water (electrical charge) is to be delivered (the speakers). A speaker usage that electrical charge to produce sound. So, technically, a loudspeaker is an electrical to acoustic energy converter. Like with any energy conversion device there are some conversion losses, in a loudspeaker, too. But that's not the main point. Main point is - this loudspeaker represents our target tank where the power is to be delivered/drawn (with the source tank being the amplifier).

Now these two tanks need to be connected via a pipe in order for the electrical charge to flow. This pipe is what we call the speaker cable. Here is it easy to see the importance of speaker cables. In our example: for a smooth flow of electric charge from the source tank (the amp) to the target tank (the loudspeakers) the pipe needs to (1) be thick enough to be able to keep up with the charge requirement in the target tank, and (2) not have any internal friction, causing disruption to the flow. This applies exactly the same way for speaker cable. An ideal speaker cable should be thick enough keeping in mind the current requirements, and should have near zero resistance of its own.

Now that we have got one more step closer, lets take a look at the final piece. The volume control -- well, what would happen if the two tanks were connected with a pipe? The flow will take place from a high potential to a low potential, to the maximum extent allowed by the connecting pipe. That is to say - all power available at the amplifier's taps will start getting dumped at the speakers binding terminal. That is the speakers will begin running at full power generated by/available at the amp. The result will likely be a blown loudspeaker, unless the amp has too little gain.

How do we prevent that? By installing a toti! Isn't it?

The volume control is also called a "tap" for the same reason. The volume control is also called a "pot" for the reason that electrically this is achieved by installing (in simplest implementation) a potentiometer. The term potentiometer is abbreviated as "pot" in verbal communication. Now what can this pot do? Limit the flow, prevent the flow from happening at full rate all the time.

A potentiometer is a very simple electrical device. It's a continuously variable voltage divider. Just as a tap in our household control water flow, preventing it from flowing at full rate, a volume control prevent the loudspeaker from getting all the available charge at full rate. So a volume control is a limiting device. It is used to narrow the width of the pipe connecting the target tank with the source tank.

Just to build upon the point 2 above about reactive load -- Let's assume that the target tank is empty. In this case, the water flowing from source tank will not face any resistance upon arrival in the target tank. Now fill the target tank with some water. Now the water arriving from the source tank will face some resistance. Now fill some more water in the target tank. Now the water arriving at the target tank will face more resistance.

An even simpler way to understand is - open the tap in the kitchen and try to block it by tapping it with the palm. When you block the flow with palm, it is transferred as a change in the pressure in the tank.

This is precisely what happens in case of a real world loudspeaker system. Since it's a combination of various transducers and a crossover, it's impedance changes with frequency and amplitude. Hence a loudspeaker system is a reactive (in addition to a being a resistive) load.

Hope my effort towards explaining this made sense.
 
Hope you are thoroughly confused by now ;)

Well, I can try to get you out of here. Let's see!

(a) "amps don't push power" -- 100% correct! In fact, this is the best way to understand an amplifier. It may seem counter-intuitive to begin with, but as you stay on, this will begin making sense.

(b) "speakers are reactive loads" -- If an amplifier is asked to play one particular frequency at one particular SPL in to one specific transducer (speaker), it will behave like an ideal amplifier. Unfortunately, real world applications are different. A typical loudspeaker system is not just one transducer playing one note at one SPL. It's a combination of multiple transducers (each with usually varying electrical characteristics) and electronic circuit to coordinate among them (basically frequency/power division). Hence, a typical loudspeaker system is a complex electrical circuit with a not so straight forward characteristic. When they are delivered power or when they draw power their characteristics changes with frequency, amplitude etc. Hence, they are not just a simple load (like a resistor) but a reactive load.

(c) About turning the knob -- let me try with a simple analogy.

Think of an amplifier as a water tank. This water tank (the amplifier) has a reserve of electrical power. This tank is connected to another tank where the water (electrical charge) is to be delivered (the speakers). A speaker usage that electrical charge to produce sound. So, technically, a loudspeaker is an electrical to acoustic energy converter. Like with any energy conversion device there are some conversion losses, in a loudspeaker, too. But that's not the main point. Main point is - this loudspeaker represents our target tank where the power is to be delivered/drawn (with the source tank being the amplifier).

Now these two tanks need to be connected via a pipe in order for the electrical charge to flow. This pipe is what we call the speaker cable. Here is it easy to see the importance of speaker cables. In our example: for a smooth flow of electric charge from the source tank (the amp) to the target tank (the loudspeakers) the pipe needs to (1) be thick enough to be able to keep up with the charge requirement in the target tank, and (2) not have any internal friction, causing disruption to the flow. This applies exactly the same way for speaker cable. An ideal speaker cable should be thick enough keeping in mind the current requirements, and should have near zero resistance of its own.

Now that we have got one more step closer, lets take a look at the final piece. The volume control -- well, what would happen if the two tanks were connected with a pipe? The flow will take place from a high potential to a low potential, to the maximum extent allowed by the connecting pipe. That is to say - all power available at the amplifier's taps will start getting dumped at the speakers binding terminal. That is the speakers will begin running at full power generated by/available at the amp. The result will likely be a blown loudspeaker, unless the amp has too little gain.

How do we prevent that? By installing a toti! Isn't it?

The volume control is also called a "tap" for the same reason. The volume control is also called a "pot" for the reason that electrically this is achieved by installing (in simplest implementation) a potentiometer. The term potentiometer is abbreviated as "pot" in verbal communication. Now what can this pot do? Limit the flow, prevent the flow from happening at full rate all the time.

A potentiometer is a very simple electrical device. It's a continuously variable voltage divider. Just as a tap in our household control water flow, preventing it from flowing at full rate, a volume control prevent the loudspeaker from getting all the available charge at full rate. So a volume control is a limiting device. It is used to narrow the width of the pipe connecting the target tank with the source tank.

Just to build upon the point 2 above about reactive load -- Let's assume that the target tank is empty. In this case, the water flowing from source tank will not face any resistance upon arrival in the target tank. Now fill the target tank with some water. Now the water arriving from the source tank will face some resistance. Now fill some more water in the target tank. Now the water arriving at the target tank will face more resistance.

An even simpler way to understand is - open the tap in the kitchen and try to block it by tapping it with the palm. When you block the flow with palm, it is transferred as a change in the pressure in the tank.

This is precisely what happens in case of a real world loudspeaker system. Since it's a combination of various transducers and a crossover, it's impedance changes with frequency and amplitude. Hence a loudspeaker system is a reactive (in addition to a being a resistive) load.

Hope my effort towards explaining this made sense.
Thanks for this Laborious explanation...

Things are slowly moving out of the haze but still far from in focus.

If a speaker takes all the power that it needs,

1. Is 1 Watt of class A the same as 1 watt of class d (By same, I mean from purely a technical voltage and amphere/current perspective) not from a sound quality perspective or sound preference level. or is there some difference in 'available power' for transients somehow 'more' in class a ?

2. Is the total wattage available in a system the main criteria for if transients will be well handled ? or does one have to consider transformer size and capacitance ? Why do tubes and class A require those big transformers while class d does not ?

3. Been watching some interviews of Nelson pass - creator of pass labs and First watt and he says that most people will be surprised that how little actual power the amp is actually giving out even during peak transients and in many cases is actually 10 watts or less closer to 1 watt, therefore the name 'first watt' . If 10 watts is the max peak power required then even to be conservative why does anyone ever need a 200 w amp.

Have been through the class a/b/d thread and still getting my head around it.
 
Within the class A bias, all else being equal, there should be no difference between class A and AB amps.

Class D/T amps sound good within their limits. Fundamental differences between various classes mean power consumed, power available, power delivered etc, their relation, these equations would be different. As an audiophile I do not feel the urge to directly compare these classes.

The reason why class D can do with smaller transformer etc is their efficiency. They waste less, so they need less to deliver the same.

If you are watching Nelson Pass videos then you are referring to one of the best sources already. No one can talk about audio amplifier design like Sir Pass does.
 
Class D/T amps sound good within their limits.
What are those limits?
Reason for my asking is that so many premium brands/lines are adopting class D. Is there something to it beyond efficiency? They are not cheap at all, so cost effectiveness is not really the reason. Will these expensive names sacrifice quality for the sake of efficiency alone?
Is there any direct comparison of similarly priced/ speced D vs A/B class amplifiers?
 
What are those limits?
Reason for my asking is that so many premium brands/lines are adopting class D. Is there something to it beyond efficiency? They are not cheap at all, so cost effectiveness is not really the reason. Will these expensive names sacrifice quality for the sake of efficiency alone?
Is there any direct comparison of similarly priced/ speced D vs A/B class amplifiers?
I feel the new class D - hyped NCORE and Purifi are SOTA . Period.
Personally I feel class D will be the king of amps. The future is them. Class A seems so archaic.

I want to leave a better climate for my children :) So class D for me. I am keeping watch on the GaN. Who knows we will have even better the Purifi modules in coming year or two?
 
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