Valve amplifiers

[anm]

maybe I would get to listen to your setup if I am able to make it at Viren's place just before he ships it out

Hello Asit,
you are most welcome to visit me when the Lyrita setup arrives. I guess it will still take couple of weeks. It will be my pleasure to have your company and gain some understaning of critical music listening. In the meantime I am keeping myself busy by playing lot of video games so that I don't get too much impatient about the amps arrival.Howz your stands coming up?
Mahiruha.

 

[stevieboy]

vortex,

the only way you'll figure out where valves stand vis a vis your nad is by listening to them. in my listening opinion i'd say yes any valve amp would sound way different than your nad. 'better' is when the build quality part comes into play. there's no comparing solid state to tube. two very different sounds altogether. its a matter of which you like based on your preferences for listening and what balance you're willing to strike in giving up and gaining qualities of each type.

for example i'd not want an 845 based SET amp at all cos of the characteristic sound of that particular valve. i much prefer the 45 tube or the 2A3. someone else might have the exact opposite preference!

if you're ever in bangalore i'd be glad to have you over for a listening session. lyrita single drivers and 2A3 SET amp with the 45 tube instead of the 2A3.

regards

 

[thevortex]

Cranky - now that was a post I had to read more than once. Dont ask me how many times. And that was a compliment by the way.

What you say makes sense. One small question - in your personal preference you seem to indicate that tubes might not be your cup of tea. That is what I understood, because tubes do have coloration to their sound and distortion levels are present - as I understand it. Is that correct?

The only reason I am thinking of stepping into the tube arena is because of the genre of music that so much enjoy listening to. Vocals and classicals, Jazz and blues and so on.

I look forward to recommendations of tube amps from fellow members as well as experienced tube builders like Viren. At this point I fear that if my EPOS' need an amp that is more powerful than Asit's Leben, the economy part of things is going to be shot to pieces. Tell me that is not so, somebody...

 

[thevortex]

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Tube amps' only problem in my book is their low power output, not the distortion (which I can live with). The speakers that mate well with them trade linearity (lack of colour) for output (sensitivity). And *that* is my problem.

I have no issue with trying out a 40-60 watt tube design for myself. I just can't afford it now

Edit: Note that Asit's Leben is by no means a cheap amplifier. It is a six-figure sum, and well worth it for the build quality and cosmetics alone (probably one of the prettiest looking amps I've seen). I'm sure you'll have no problems finding options to suit your budget. The Cayin tube monos I had had heard were stunning, 90 watts PP parallel, each amp was the size of three car batteries together, and it could kick the most stubborn Dynaudios into submission. I think each cost about 1L, but this was five years ago.

Thanks Cranky! I particularly like the way you put the italicized line. I dont think the fact could be put better in so few words.

"The speakers that mate well with them trade linearity (lack of colour) for output (sensitivity)".

So, any recommendations for tube amps (SET or push/pull - as I do not have enough experience to make the distinction right now) around the Rs. 30K mark? Bearing in mind that the whole idea is to make my system punch above where my NAD goes right now...

And yes, I can sacrifice absolute room shattering sound for exquisite presentation and smoothness along with dynamics and detailing.

 

[Asit]

Hello Asit,
you are most welcome to visit me when the Lyrita setup arrives. I guess it will still take couple of weeks. It will be my pleasure to have your company and gain some understaning of critical music listening. In the meantime I am keeping myself busy by playing lot of video games so that I don't get too much impatient about the amps arrival.Howz your stands coming up?
Mahiruha.

Thanks Mahiruha,
1) I am looking forward to hearing your setup. Do let me know when they arrive.
2) To tell you very frankly, I cannot listen to music 'critically'. It's something like this: the music starts and it takes me places. I do not have to do anything by myself. Unfortunately, when it's a purchase related auditioning, you have to be attentive to a few things, that's all. Otherwise, I do not know what a critical listening is.
3) In your thread, sometime I ago, after you showed interest, I also invited you to my place to hear my setup, but mysteriously you vanished from your own thread. That invitation still stands .
4) If you follow my amp thread, you would know that currently things have not prgressed because of various reasons. But it would happen, but would take a bit more time.

Regards.

 

[square_wave]

Vortex,
Tubes vs SS and Multi driver vs Single driver are arguments which will go on forever.
Do not think that you will find an answer to this on any forum.
The best way to find out is to LISTEN yourself with your kind of music on a well setup (meaning-properly setup with a system approach) system of both Genre.

You will know for sure then

 

[thevortex]

Like I said I am not interested in finding out which one is better. I already have a particular listening preference and am just wanting to find out if valves would fit that preference better than my current solid state amp.

Lets see if I can listen to a valve amplifier sometime soon to take this forward.

 

[viren bakhshi]

Hi cranky,

I guess you misread me. It's in the retrieval of micro detail, and the finer nuances in music, that tubes shine over solid state. I do not dismiss one technology over the other.

Also, it's too simplistic an argument to describe tube sound by the distortion signature they generate. If measurements were a true indicator of sound reproduction, we would have had perfect amplifiers ages ago. If you look into tube literature, you will find reams discussed about the distortions generated by various phase splitters. When you take a signal, and send it two ways, I call that splitting a signal.

Let the master, Nelson Pass, speak himself:

"Most interesting are the full-range high-efficiency drivers that deliver the goods with only a watt or so. Its a big design challenge to produce a good sounding full-range acoustic transducer with 100 dB/watt efficiency. When it is properly achieved, you get a wealth of detail, exceptional dynamic range, and a sense of musical liveness that you dont often hear elsewhere.

Tube amplifiers seem to bring out the best in such drivers. They have more bottom end and, a warmer, mellower mid and upper mid-range, and often more top octave. By comparison, the best solid-state amplifiers make them sound more like transistor radios - less bottom and an occasionally strident upper midrange. If you are a solid-state kind of guy (like me) you start wondering how that could be, and if you are a tube aficionado, you smirk and say, I told you so. The solid-state guy probably starts fixing the response with a parametric equalizer, and the tube guy enjoys his music with a nice glass of wine.

 

[suri]

If measurements were a true indicator of sound reproduction, we would have had perfect amplifiers ages ago.

Then again, if that were true, then Bose systems would not be acceptable and would not sell.

and again, to move mechanical parts of a loudspeaker and convert electrical signals into actual sound requires power, the more the better, given the bass heavy nature of today's recorded material. Most reputed production studios have bowed to popular demand and have used electronic methods to incorporate sub 50 hz material in their recordings (why are timbaland mixes popular?).

It seems to me that there are many ways to complete the course-

(1) on a very high-tech carbon fibre bicycle with a friction resisting suit

(2) in a cutting edge bugatti veyron with a girlfriend by your side (a high-tech girl)

of course - horses for the courses

 

[Asit]

It's in the retrieval of micro detail, and the finer nuances in music, that tubes shine over solid state.

Now let's see what are the micro detail and finer nuances in music. At the outset, let me just say: although drama, however subtle, is a part of music, it is only a minor part of music. Music is like a painting where the colors are notes, and their combinations make musical pieces. Take an example: In North Indian presentation of Indian classical music, in Raga Todi one does a sliding (i.e. meend) combination S r g r S (r is komal rishav, g is komal gandhar). In Raga Bhairav one does a similar combination G M r S (with M r S in sliding, touching also the note G). Now with well trained musicians, there may be a difference as follows: in Bhairav in descending pattern one does make a temporary stop at r and then goes to S, while in Todi the descending movement will end at S without any stop at r. This is what I could call an example of the finer points of at least the renditions in Raga Bhairav and Todi. One may call it finer nuances or whatever, but we need to understand what it is. Very often, because of lack of musical appreciation, we may focus on the things which are not important for music: for example, how Zakir Hussain's hair is bouncing all around while he improvises a difficult pattern on the tabla, or how dazzling is the sarod looking and how the fingers are going up and down the sitar (I can give a few hundred audible examples which have nothing to do with music).

I am sorry to prolong the above discussion, but I do not want to encourage a discussion based on vague concepts. If you say a certain amp brings out the finer nuances that no other amps can, then obviously we need to understand what these nuances are, if we are discussing something concrete or are trying to hide our lack of understanding both in music and in amps in some fudge factors.

If measurements were a true indicator of sound reproduction, we would have had perfect amplifiers ages ago.

I fully agree. I have expressed myself a few times in this forum on this, most recently in a thread called "Amplifier Burn-in" in the "Introductions" section. But if this is oversimplification, so is yours, based on an undefined (and most likely an ill-conceived) notion of the so-called "nuances".

Let the master, Nelson Pass, speak himself:

"Most interesting are the full-range high-efficiency drivers that deliver the goods with only a watt or so. Its a big design challenge to produce a good sounding full-range acoustic transducer with 100 dB/watt efficiency. When it is properly achieved, you get a wealth of detail, exceptional dynamic range, and a sense of musical liveness that you dont often hear elsewhere.

Tube amplifiers seem to bring out the best in such drivers. They have more bottom end and, a warmer, mellower mid and upper mid-range, and often more top octave. By comparison, the best solid-state amplifiers make them sound more like transistor radios - less bottom and an occasionally strident upper midrange. If you are a solid-state kind of guy (like me) you start wondering how that could be, and if you are a tube aficionado, you smirk and say, I told you so. The solid-state guy probably starts fixing the response with a parametric equalizer, and the tube guy enjoys his music with a nice glass of wine.

A few things about the quote above.
1) I do not see anything on SET and PP, this is important because I thought the discussion was on unquestionable supremacy of SET amps over everything else because they produced the "nuances" better.

2) It is safe to assume that the master is talking about money-no-bar kind of solutions. The discussion here in the backdrop of theVortex's thread within a limited budget is obviously very different.

3) I must say, the quote is a very carefully chosen one and I complement you for that. Although on a first quick read, it seems that the master is actually denouncing SS amps and having high praise only for the tube amps, please go back and read it carefully through. Then you discover that he is actually talking about the full range speakers which, when made nicely, sound very well with tube amps, on the other hand they (i.e., the full range speakers) sound quite bad with SS amps. He says nothing about a tube amp and a SS amp themselves. It's actually a commentary on the response of the full range speakers as driven by SS and tube amps.

Regards.

 

[thevortex]

A word if I may to the learned here - I find this whole discussion fascinating, but I do want to point out that I am not interested in finding out the superior technology - solid state or valve. And by most accounts such blanket superiority probably does not exist.

Given the subset of my listening preferences (vocals, classicals), I am told that valves have better, more 'live-sounding' and natural presentation. I am not into rock concerts or metallica or anything similar - no offence to people who are into it. I would love to hear from people specifically on this matter - considering the specific listening preferences - when they discuss on Valves vs Solid State. I think that is pertinent and moreover it would be very useful for me.

Definitely as Asit says I am not looking for a price no bar solution here. The more economical it is, the better it will be, obviously. But sound quality cannot be compromised and has to punch well above the NAD C372 for it to be worthy of consideration. Does such a solution exist - is the question? If so, at what price does it exist? What are the options open?

As I said, from my side I am looking to do some homework and see if I can listen to a 2A3 SET amplifier sometime in the coming week and share my thoughts here. Till then, look forward to learning more on this and other subjects.

 

[moserw]

in a cutting edge bugatti veyron with a girlfriend by your side (a high-tech girl)

Suri must commend your taste in cars (besides the wonderful speakers you make). I happened to see this beauty of a car in a motor show in Paris IIRC (my first and only live look at it) and its breathtakingly beautiful indeed. Don't even need a high-tech GF or wife when in such a car!!!

 

[square_wave]

Vortex,
You need a highly resolving system with your music tastes. The Nad amplifier will not cut it. I have owned two of them in the past. They are decent first amps for an audiophile. The speakers are decent but you can do better.
I am sure Virens SET and single driver full range speaker combination will be a major upgrade.
Another option are a highly resolving multi driver speaker with a high quality tube or ss amp. The second option is going to be much costlier.
For the second option you could look at acoustic portrait in Bangalore. Most of his customers are highly evolved Hindustani, western classical lovers.

 

[square_wave]

To second Virens views. I can tell you an example.
I once had the opportunity to hear a highly resolving complete Linn system (read very expensive) and then the Rethm Sadhanas with a tube amp in the same room with the same music.
They are both different. One can fall in love with either of them depending on ones taste.
The Linn had amazing frequency extension and was doing everything right. A typical audiophile will fall in love with it for sure.
The Rethm setup had an intimacy to the sound that was mesmerizing. The micro level dynamics and coherency of the music was in the different league. But a typical audiophile will find areas to nit pick. A music lover will not have to time to nit pick. He will be busy filling his wine glass and listening to music.

Hence the importance to listening yourself. Only you will know what will work for you. No one is saying one is better than the other.

 

[suri]

Suri must commend your taste in cars (besides the wonderful speakers you make). I happened to see this beauty of a car in a motor show in Paris IIRC (my first and only live look at it) and its breathtakingly beautiful indeed. Don't even need a high-tech GF or wife when in such a car!!!

moserw,

must have been an awesome sight! to think that mere mortals can make such a thing (that too, the mortals at volkswagen!). and that takes your mind to that extraordinary mortal - Hitler and the genius he commanded - Ferdinand Porsche - and their "Aus Liebe zum Automobil"

a thousand apologies in advance if i have hurt any sentiments

 

[suri]

To second Virens views. I can tell you an example.
I once had the opportunity to hear a highly resolving complete Linn system (read very expensive) and then the Rethm Sadhanas with a tube amp in the same room with the same music.
They are both different. One can fall in love with either of them depending on ones taste.
The Linn had amazing frequency extension and was doing everything right. A typical audiophile will fall in love with it for sure.
The Rethm setup had an intimacy to the sound that was mesmerizing. The micro level dynamics and coherency of the music was in the different league. But a typical audiophile will find areas to nit pick. A music lover will not have to time to nit pick. He will be busy filling his wine glass and listening to music.

Hence the importance to listening yourself. Only you will know what will work for you. No one is saying one is better than the other.

Hi squarewave,

that must have been an unforgettable experience!

were those the original rethms you listened to - the ones without the subwoofer - they had larger lowther (6" i think)drivers.

the recent iteration of the rethms have a subwoofer each, and also, it seemed to me, smaller lowthers
regards

 

[square_wave]

It was the newer rethms.
I had to dial back the subwoofer volume to 25 percent less than the default setting to achieve the right balance.

 

[psychotropic]

With nothing but the greatest respect for everyone posting on this thread, ...honestly, are these arguments of much use to the thread-starter? At the factual level there is almost unanimous agreement on the various characteristics of tube and SS amps in general, and of the fact that there are several iterations of each class of amps which transcend these limitations well enough for their class to be irrelevant. There also seems to be agreement that in the typical scenario, one class of amps is suitable for certain kinds of music, and the other class for certain other kinds (once again with the caveats of certain iterations transcending these limitations).

Wouldn't the 'causes' of these characteristics be less important other than for a manufacturer (like Viren) or a DIY-er (like Cranky). For a listener like thevortex, whose query this thread revolves around, wouldn't it be much more relevant if the discussion focused on a few good amplifiers (whether tube or SS or hybrid) models that serve his purpose, and how they serve his purpose, and what they cost and so on?

I am not saying this to run anyone down. It's a fascinating discussion to read, and I feel privileged to read such well-informed, engaging and articulate expositions of the nuances of amplifier technology, but I am just thinking the thread starter might not be getting what he was looking for

 

[thevortex]

Thanks for the message psychotropic. I have made a post in this thread on similar lines yesterday.

All this information is enriching without doubt and I sure am hopeful of the discussion being topical and insightful. The occasional meandering, in my opinion, tends to add to the quality of the thread and I would not mind.

Just somebody tell me that there are tube solutions that can help me get what I want at a reasonable value

 

[anm]

I think you need to audition, pref at home. Talk to Viren and see if a home audition/ trial is possible.
As posted earlier, I tried 15w amp with my JBL speakers and it drove them fine.

regards