Western Classical Music

Something about owning the music feels permanent - i cant describe it.

In my most paranoid moments , i can imagine evil corporations flipping a switch and cutting off hapless consumers from all the content which they have hoarded. 😅

I guess it's the same as giving up ownership of of private vehicles and only using the likes of Uber. Convenient, but not the same, and not your own.
 
In my most paranoid moments , i can imagine evil corporations flipping a switch and cutting off hapless consumers from all the content which they have hoarded. 😅

I guess it's the same as giving up ownership of of private vehicles and only using the likes of Uber. Convenient, but not the same, and not your own.
Btw this did happen to me in the earlier days of apple music where my downloaded apple music got deleted 3 times. Now i mostly stream due to better mobile plans and services and I dont have that issue any more. So your worst nightmare did come true, only to the wring person 😂
 
Anybody noticed ? The Chicago Symphony recordings on CSOResound with Ricardo Mutti are quite….how should I say it…..pale ? In comparison to the usual fine sound of this really fine orchestra.
 
Beethoven Piano concerto no 4.
DG - maurizio pollini, karl bohm, vienna philharmonic.

2 Masters at work And well recorded.
 
I am illiterate about western classical music but I do listen to it sometimes. Most of you may be aware of "talk classical" website. I joined it few years back as I had a query...
https://www.talkclassical.com/threads/here-is-tough-one-for-me.60445/
Lack of knowledge restricts me from discussions, but looks like rich source of info, topics and nice people.
regards
Pls listen to it more often. There are treasures waiting to be found.
I remember being in a similar situation as you decades ago so I started taking classes in classical music appreciation in the early 90’s with a friend at the NCPA from a Parsi gentlemen called Professor Ookerjee. Fantastic to say the least. Then some more at the NCPA with the Conductors of SOI(symphony orchestra of India), Russian consulate, Max Mueller Bhavan, British Counsel, USIS, Alliance Francaise, attending concerts, collecting/reading concert notes and programs, and whatever else that gave me more info. Most of this was nearly free, sponsored by the cultural societies of various countries.Youtube now must have a plethora of such lectures now.

Reading is good but when its explained to you part by part, piece by piece, by either playing some works on a system or played live on a piano makes all the difference.

Trust me.
 
i do have very elaborate book about learning western classical. Needed quite an effort to understand. so left it half way. in near future I may read again. Though looks like youtube videos would be more easy to understand. I need to learn basic about Indian classical too.
regds.
 
On a different note-

Which performances (conductor and orchestra) were an unexpected surprise(in a good way) when you heard it for the first time being played by an orchestra not rated in the usual top 10 or the usual Big names but excelled ? “The Hidden Gems” as it were. Would love to know your list.
I have come across many a recording that has done just so.

I do believe one has to patronise the lesser rated ones as many of them play superbly and with heart but may not be flushed with big dolla’s for their marketing or touring.

Here are a few of my choices.
1) Gurzenich Cologne, Markus Stenz, Mahler cycle
2) USSR State Symphony orchestra(Russian Federation Symphony Orchestra) Evgeny Svetlanov, Tchaikovsky Symphony No 2.(Pony Canyon label which I should think are Japanese releases of Russian recordings)
3) Detroit Symphony Orchestra, Paul Paray, Rachmaninov symphony No 2 and Chabrier suite both on Mercury records
4) Gothenburg Symphony, Sibelius Symphony No 2., Santtu-Matias Rouvali(though this orchestra may not count) but I love this version.
 
On a different note-

Which performances (conductor and orchestra) were an unexpected surprise(in a good way) when you heard it for the first time being played by an orchestra not rated in the usual top 10 or the usual Big names but excelled ? “The Hidden Gems” as it were. Would love to know your list.
I have come across many a recording that has done just so.

I do believe one has to patronise the lesser rated ones as many of them play superbly and with heart but may not be flushed with big dolla’s for their marketing or touring.

Here are a few of my choices.
1) Gurzenich Cologne, Markus Stenz, Mahler cycle
2) USSR State Symphony orchestra(Russian Federation Symphony Orchestra) Evgeny Svetlanov, Tchaikovsky Symphony No 2.(Pony Canyon label which I should think are Japanese releases of Russian recordings)
3) Detroit Symphony Orchestra, Paul Paray, Rachmaninov symphony No 2 and Chabrier suite both on Mercury records
4) Gothenburg Symphony, Sibelius Symphony No 2., Santtu-Matias Rouvali(though this orchestra may not count) but I love this version.
Hi,

Interesting topic indeed. You should listen to the Markus Stenz Mahler 5 on ABC classics (I forget which orchestra). I do not think his Cologne cycle reached the same heights. I would suggest for something unexpected, try Gabriel Feltz in Dortmund and Stuttgart as part of his complete Mahler cycle. Also would suggest the vintage Gary Bertini cycle with the radio Sinfonieorchester Koln (the other major orchestra in the city).

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the Svetlanov live cycle on Pony Canyon. This is different from his Moscow cycle. There is a studio and a live one. The latter is a cracker.

So is the Paray Detroit relationship. Australian Eloquence has just released 2 mega boxes with Paray (45 CDs but with extensive duplication with the 3 Mercury Living Presence boxes). Either way he deserves to be heard especially in French and Russian repertoire. So too is Antal Dorati. His Tchaikovsky and Dvorak symphony recordings are superb along with his Bartok and of course the pioneering Haydn cycle on Decca.

One unexpected pairing which I still cherish is the Bruckner 8th with Maazel and the Berlin Philharmonic. Maazel was always unpredictable especially as he got older but this one is just superb. I first listened to it 30 years ago at the Max Mueller Bhavan library and its fires still burn bright. It can rub shoulders with Karajan (EMI and both DG recordings), Giulini and the VPO, Wand and the NDR SO live at the Lübeck cathedral and Tennstedt (live) to name but a few.

I also liked the Sibelius 1st symphony with Bernstein in Vienna. The rest of his second Sibelius sojourn on DG is pretty forgettable but this 1st deserves to be heard and a very different reading from his Columbia/Sony cycle.

From the Czech Republic, Vaclav Neumann in Dvorak and Mahler as well as the Czech Philharmonic playing a marvellous Beethoven cycle under Paul Kletzki.

Finally a couple of conductors who worked mostly behind the Iron Curtain. Otmar Suitner and his Dvorak symphony cycle is among the very best with no weak links whatsoever. Another is Franz Konwitschny…his Beethoven and Bruckner recordings are superb. Both with the Leipzig Gewandhaus orchestra.

And lastly, from a conductor who does too much often with much blandness, I was surprised by the greatness of the Ring cycle under Barenboim. Uniformly excellent.

Regards,
IP
 
Hi,

Interesting topic indeed. You should listen to the Markus Stenz Mahler 5 on ABC classics (I forget which orchestra). I do not think his Cologne cycle reached the same heights. I would suggest for something unexpected, try Gabriel Feltz in Dortmund and Stuttgart as part of his complete Mahler cycle. Also would suggest the vintage Gary Bertini cycle with the radio Sinfonieorchester Koln (the other major orchestra in the city).

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the Svetlanov live cycle on Pony Canyon. This is different from his Moscow cycle. There is a studio and a live one. The latter is a cracker.

So is the Paray Detroit relationship. Australian Eloquence has just released 2 mega boxes with Paray (45 CDs but with extensive duplication with the 3 Mercury Living Presence boxes). Either way he deserves to be heard especially in French and Russian repertoire. So too is Antal Dorati. His Tchaikovsky and Dvorak symphony recordings are superb along with his Bartok and of course the pioneering Haydn cycle on Decca.

One unexpected pairing which I still cherish is the Bruckner 8th with Maazel and the Berlin Philharmonic. Maazel was always unpredictable especially as he got older but this one is just superb. I first listened to it 30 years ago at the Max Mueller Bhavan library and its fires still burn bright. It can rub shoulders with Karajan (EMI and both DG recordings), Giulini and the VPO, Wand and the NDR SO live at the Lübeck cathedral and Tennstedt (live) to name but a few.

I also liked the Sibelius 1st symphony with Bernstein in Vienna. The rest of his second Sibelius sojourn on DG is pretty forgettable but this 1st deserves to be heard and a very different reading from his Columbia/Sony cycle.

From the Czech Republic, Vaclav Neumann in Dvorak and Mahler as well as the Czech Philharmonic playing a marvellous Beethoven cycle under Paul Kletzki.

Finally a couple of conductors who worked mostly behind the Iron Curtain. Otmar Suitner and his Dvorak symphony cycle is among the very best with no weak links whatsoever. Another is Franz Konwitschny…his Beethoven and Bruckner recordings are superb. Both with the Leipzig Gewandhaus orchestra.

And lastly, from a conductor who does too much often with much blandness, I was surprised by the greatness of the Ring cycle under Barenboim. Uniformly excellent.

Regards,
IP
First of all thank you for the reply.

Markus Stenz had Mahler recordings with Sidney Symphony Orchestra during his time there but that relationship didn't last long. Maybe you refer those ?

Yea the Svetlanov versions are awesome. Havent heard any western orchestra play Tchaikovsky quite like him and his band apart from Rudolf Kempe and Berlin Philharmonic and the BRSO.

I Have the Dorati Tchaikovsky cycle and Dvorak since he is a “BIG name” didn't mention it. But they are good.

The behind the scenes conductors are the types I am looking for.

Anything that matches a Tennstedt live recording deserves to be heard. He is my hero.

Thanks a ton. This is where apple music and similar services come into their own. I am sure most if not all that you have mentioned must be up there somewhere.
 
with great hesitation I am posting this as I am very amateur listener (specially classical) I am sure as audiophile listeners you people listen to performance, condutors and recordings of which I haven't got tiniest clue...How would one rate Arthur Bliss ?
https://www.hifivision.com/threads/very-famous-western-classical-music.9790/page-5#post-163375
Hi Hiten,

The reputation of Sir Arthur Bliss the composer far outstrips that of his work as a conductor. While the Elgar short pieces were bread and butter for any English conductor, I would suggest that you explore Bliss the composer. A favourite piece of mine which of course needs some getting used to is Morning Heroes for narrator, chorus and orchestra. Much more accessible is the ballet Adam Zero. There is a wonderful Naxos disc with Bliss’s music. And others you will get on EMI/Warner British Composer series.

Hope this helps,

regards,
IP
 
First of all thank you for the reply.

Markus Stenz had Mahler recordings with Sidney Symphony Orchestra during his time there but that relationship didn't last long. Maybe you refer those ?

Yea the Svetlanov versions are awesome. Havent heard any western orchestra play Tchaikovsky quite like him and his band apart from Rudolf Kempe and Berlin Philharmonic and the BRSO.

I Have the Dorati Tchaikovsky cycle and Dvorak since he is a “BIG name” didn't mention it. But they are good.

The behind the scenes conductors are the types I am looking for.

Anything that matches a Tennstedt live recording deserves to be heard. He is my hero.

Thanks a ton. This is where apple music and similar services come into their own. I am sure most if not all that you have mentioned must be up there somewhere.
Thank you…indeed it was the Sydney Symphony. But you should try and keep a sharp lookout for that Mahler 5. It is great. It usually sells for less than 5 USD. In my opinion Kempe was a big name. I first encountered him via Gramophone magazine during a review of his reissued Strauss recordings with the Staatskapelle Dresden. And what enduring gems they have been. His Brahms cycle in Berlin was also fine although I cannot abide any Brahms 3rd that leaves out the exposition repeat in the first movement. Look out for surprising pairings as well like Klemperer in Mendelssohn, gaunt as usual but unmissable with the woodwinds peeping through the string texture, especially the Scottish.

As for Tennstedt, you must look out for his many live recordings in Boston, Chicago and Philadelphia. Some great Bruckner recordings there in acceptable sound.

look up https://www.78experience.com/welcome.php?mod=disques&collection=102
Regard,
IP
 
Thank you…indeed it was the Sydney Symphony. But you should try and keep a sharp lookout for that Mahler 5. It is great. It usually sells for less than 5 USD. In my opinion Kempe was a big name. I first encountered him via Gramophone magazine during a review of his reissued Strauss recordings with the Staatskapelle Dresden. And what enduring gems they have been. His Brahms cycle in Berlin was also fine although I cannot abide any Brahms 3rd that leaves out the exposition repeat in the first movement. Look out for surprising pairings as well like Klemperer in Mendelssohn, gaunt as usual but unmissable with the woodwinds peeping through the string texture, especially the Scottish.

As for Tennstedt, you must look out for his many live recordings in Boston, Chicago and Philadelphia. Some great Bruckner recordings there in acceptable sound.

look up https://www.78experience.com/welcome.php?mod=disques&collection=102
Regard,
IP
Heard the sidney version. I prefer the Cologne.

Kempe a big name but to me he was a chameleon. He adapted to any orchestra/environment and did shine.

On Tennstedt, have the chicago and berlin phil music. But honestly, what he did with london philharmonic in such a short span of time is legendary.

You spoke of the special relationship between paul paray and detroit, tennstedt i believe had the same with london phil. I vaguely remember In one of his interviews he was asked what makes him and his orchestra special and his reply was very “Un-German” something to the tune of its OK if you make a few mistakes as long as you play music from your heart, it will make up for it. That was his way of bringing out the best in his people and lifting the burden of failure. Quite unlike a few other conductors who were nothing short of dictators. You know who I’m talking about. 😂
 
On a different note-

Which performances (conductor and orchestra) were an unexpected surprise(in a good way) when you heard it for the first time being played by an orchestra not rated in the usual top 10 or the usual Big names but excelled ? “The Hidden Gems” as it were. Would love to know your list.
I have come across many a recording that has done just so.

It's a limited field, because there simply arent that many complete works of this piece, but Djansug Kakhidze and the USSR Radio & TV Large Symphony Orchestra do an absolutely magnificent rendition of Gayaneh by Khachaturian. It is a criminally under-rated work and there is so much more there beyond Sabre Dance.... I have a couple of selections of this by Tjeknovorian, but Kakhidze's rendition just leaves me in a rapture.

Kitajenko and the Bergen Philharmonic playing Rimsky-Korsakov's Three Symphonies is another rare gem - again, these arent very popular pieces, so that limits the choices anyway.

If i may broadly generalize, I find Russian conductors generally do a fantastic job with Russian Romantic-era works, and for the most part, I generally do prefer their heart-on-sleeve playing to the more measured/technical performance of the western conductors/orchestras. Almost enough to put up with the crappy Melodiya recordings. :)
 
Heard the sidney version. I prefer the Cologne.

Kempe a big name but to me he was a chameleon. He adapted to any orchestra/environment and did shine.

On Tennstedt, have the chicago and berlin phil music. But honestly, what he did with london philharmonic in such a short span of time is legendary.

You spoke of the special relationship between paul paray and detroit, tennstedt i believe had the same with london phil. I vaguely remember In one of his interviews he was asked what makes him and his orchestra special and his reply was very “Un-German” something to the tune of its OK if you make a few mistakes as long as you play music from your heart, it will make up for it. That was his way of bringing out the best in his people and lifting the burden of failure. Quite unlike a few other conductors who were nothing short of dictators. You know who I’m talking about. 😂
Oh yes good old Herbie…Talking about less celebrated conductors of course there is Sawallisch…his Beethoven cycle came out piecemeal and his 4 and 7, 5 and 6 were among the first CDs available in Kolkata in the late 1980s. His Beethoven 2 and 8 in this cycle is a near perfect amalgam of orchestral weight and Beechamesque wit …

His Philadelphia Strauss recordings were also wonderful. Especially the sinfonia domestica…I recent discovered his BRSO Bruckner 5 and 6 on LP which were nothing short of revelatory…And before I forget please try and grab the Dvorak symphonic poems with the mighty Czech Philharmonic and Zdenek Chalabala…available on Supraphon LP and CD. Just mind blowing…of course there is Talich, Kubelik, Kertesz, Neumann and Ancerl but even among his compatriots he stands tall.

To return to good old Herbie, there was this famous story related by Rostropovich, an incident that happened around the time of the legendary Dvorak cello concerto recording on DG with Karajan…after a particularly intense passage, Karajan exclaimed to the master cellist why he was making an ugly sound to which Rostropovich said that, that is what the score indicated. Karajan was heard muttering that “one must never make an ugly sound…never”. Well the maestro of the beautiful sound left a controversial legacy to say the least.

Regards,
IP
 
It's a limited field, because there simply arent that many complete works of this piece, but Djansug Kakhidze and the USSR Radio & TV Large Symphony Orchestra do an absolutely magnificent rendition of Gayaneh by Khachaturian. It is a criminally under-rated work and there is so much more there beyond Sabre Dance.... I have a couple of selections of this by Tjeknovorian, but Kakhidze's rendition just leaves me in a rapture.

Kitajenko and the Bergen Philharmonic playing Rimsky-Korsakov's Three Symphonies is another rare gem - again, these arent very popular pieces, so that limits the choices anyway.

If i may broadly generalize, I find Russian conductors generally do a fantastic job with Russian Romantic-era works, and for the most part, I generally do prefer their heart-on-sleeve playing to the more measured/technical performance of the western conductors/orchestras. Almost enough to put up with the crappy Melodiya recordings. :)
The Jarvi Rimsky symphonies cycle on DG are particularly fine but your mention of Kitaenko is intriguing…I have recently acquired his Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich cycles and as is usual with him, he does not wear his heart on sleeve…a far cry from good old Svetlanov. Is the Kitaenko available on CD? As for Gayaneh…have not heard that in a while. Thanks for mentioning it. I do not even remember what version I have of the selections. Probably Loris T…let me check. Was it issued on ASV?

IP
 
Thank you…indeed it was the Sydney Symphony. But you should try and keep a sharp lookout for that Mahler 5. It is great. It usually sells for less than 5 USD. In my opinion Kempe was a big name. I first encountered him via Gramophone magazine during a review of his reissued Strauss recordings with the Staatskapelle Dresden. And what enduring gems they have been. His Brahms cycle in Berlin was also fine although I cannot abide any Brahms 3rd that leaves out the exposition repeat in the first movement. Look out for surprising pairings as well like Klemperer in Mendelssohn, gaunt as usual but unmissable with the woodwinds peeping through the string texture, especially the Scottish.

As for Tennstedt, you must look out for his many live recordings in Boston, Chicago and Philadelphia. Some great Bruckner recordings there in acceptable sound.

look up https://www.78experience.com/welcome.php?mod=disques&collection=102
Regard,
IP
Heard the sidney version. I prefer the Cologne.

Kempe a big name but to me he was a chameleon. He adapted to any orchestra/environment and did shine.

On Tennstedt, have the chicago, boston and berlin phil music.
It's a limited field, because there simply arent that many complete works of this piece, but Djansug Kakhidze and the USSR Radio & TV Large Symphony Orchestra do an absolutely magnificent rendition of Gayaneh by Khachaturian. It is a criminally under-rated work and there is so much more there beyond Sabre Dance.... I have a couple of selections of this by Tjeknovorian, but Kakhidze's rendition just leaves me in a rapture.

Kitajenko and the Bergen Philharmonic playing Rimsky-Korsakov's Three Symphonies is another rare gem - again, these arent very popular pieces, so that limits the choices anyway.

If i may broadly generalize, I find Russian conductors generally do a fantastic job with Russian Romantic-era works, and for the most part, I generally do prefer their heart-on-sleeve playing to the more measured/technical performance of the western conductors/orchestras. Almost enough to put up with the crappy Melodiya recordings. :)
true true true , I was going to say the same thing….have been tolerating melodiya since I was a kid but the music on it is amazing. Yes the Russians, oh the Russians, they just do it so well with their music ! This measured interpretation of Russian music thing of western orchestras and conductors becomes so boring at times I just switch off. These Russians have totally spoilt a few of us 😂

Now to find the above Gayaneh on apple misic.
 
Oh yes good old Herbie…Talking about less celebrated conductors of course there is Sawallisch…his Beethoven cycle came out piecemeal and his 4 and 7, 5 and 6 were among the first CDs available in Kolkata in the late 1980s. His Beethoven 2 and 8 in this cycle is a near perfect amalgam of orchestral weight and Beechamesque wit …

His Philadelphia Strauss recordings were also wonderful. Especially the sinfonia domestica…I recent discovered his BRSO Bruckner 5 and 6 on LP which were nothing short of revelatory…And before I forget please try and grab the Dvorak symphonic poems with the mighty Czech Philharmonic and Zdenek Chalabala…available on Supraphon LP and CD. Just mind blowing…of course there is Talich, Kubelik, Kertesz, Neumann and Ancerl but even among his compatriots he stands tall.

To return to good old Herbie, there was this famous story related by Rostropovich, an incident that happened around the time of the legendary Dvorak cello concerto recording on DG with Karajan…after a particularly intense passage, Karajan exclaimed to the master cellist why he was making an ugly sound to which Rostropovich said that, that is what the score indicated. Karajan was heard muttering that “one must never make an ugly sound…never”. Well the maestro of the beautiful sound left a controversial legacy to say the least.

Regards,
IP

Thanks for the pointers….here I go modifyfing my playlist.

As for Karajan he did what he had to do and he did give us some fantastic moments. Hence He is forgiven…forbhis ramblings 😂
 
Oh yes good old Herbie…Talking about less celebrated conductors of course there is Sawallisch…his Beethoven cycle came out piecemeal and his 4 and 7, 5 and 6 were among the first CDs available in Kolkata in the late 1980s. His Beethoven 2 and 8 in this cycle is a near perfect amalgam of orchestral weight and Beechamesque wit …

His Philadelphia Strauss recordings were also wonderful. Especially the sinfonia domestica…I recent discovered his BRSO Bruckner 5 and 6 on LP which were nothing short of revelatory…And before I forget please try and grab the Dvorak symphonic poems with the mighty Czech Philharmonic and Zdenek Chalabala…available on Supraphon LP and CD. Just mind blowing…of course there is Talich, Kubelik, Kertesz, Neumann and Ancerl but even among his compatriots he stands tall.

To return to good old Herbie, there was this famous story related by Rostropovich, an incident that happened around the time of the legendary Dvorak cello concerto recording on DG with Karajan…after a particularly intense passage, Karajan exclaimed to the master cellist why he was making an ugly sound to which Rostropovich said that, that is what the score indicated. Karajan was heard muttering that “one must never make an ugly sound…never”. Well the maestro of the beautiful sound left a controversial legacy to say the least.

Regards,
IP
Got the Chalabala Dvorak on apple in high rez 😃
 
Purchase the Audiolab 6000A Integrated Amplifier at a special offer price.
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