What does the Logo on Records refer?

[bhaskarcan]

Recently I acquired some hardly played Bengali and Indian classical LP's from a veteran collector. Most of them are earlier Big Nipper/coloured Nipper/ black HMV labels. Going by the convention that "earlier presses sound good", I thought of replacing my in use later presses with the newly acquired nice condition earlier presses.
While doing so, I played them and compared both types of pressings. To my utter surprise, I found that in at least 50% cases the later blacknwhite Nipper presses sounded discernible better than the Big Nipper/Coloured Nipper/black hmv label presses. Hence I ended up retaining both types of labels. Later presses for listening, earlier presses for collection value.
This maybe one off phenomenon for those particular albums only. Still it would have been foolish on my behalf to replace the earlier pressings with later pressings blindly.

Regards

 

[souravin]

Recently I acquired some hardly played Bengali and Indian classical LP's from a veteran collector. Most of them are earlier Big Nipper/coloured Nipper/ black HMV labels. Going by the convention that "earlier presses sound good", I thought of replacing my in use later presses with the newly acquired nice condition earlier presses.
While doing so, I played them and compared both types of pressings. To my utter surprise, I found that in at least 50% cases the later blacknwhite Nipper presses sounded discernible better than the Big Nipper/Coloured Nipper/black hmv label presses. Hence I ended up retaining both types of labels. Later presses for listening, earlier presses for collection value.
This maybe one off phenomenon for those particular albums only. Still it would have been foolish on my behalf to replace the earlier pressings with later pressings blindly.

Regards

A news indeed. There are so many surprises awaiting for us because of these EMI/ HMV folks. While we Bollywood collectors are shouting for Red label, these are the kind of parameters contributing to raise confusion further. Odeon vs Angel war - which one is a better pressing is still a debate to die for.

 

[bhaskarcan]

A news indeed. There are so many surprises awaiting for us because of these EMI/ HMV folks. While we Bollywood collectors are shouting for Red label, these are the kind of parameters contributing to raise confusion further. Odeon vs Angel war - which one is a better pressing is still a debate to die for.

As far as Angel vs Odeon pressings of Hindi film music is concerned, there shouldn't be much of ambiguity.
By now we all know the early era Odeon labels, when Angel labels were prevalent, were nothing but an Angel pressing with odeon labels for foreign markets. Anyone trying to differentiate sound quality between them is just wasting his/her time, IMHO.
As regards to later Odeon pressings of earlier Angel records, quite logically, the Angels sounded bold and open in comparison. But the catch is to get a nicely playable Angel copy in reasonable price. These records have become almost unobtainable nowadays. Whereas their Odeon counterparts are easier to get in great playing condition.
So it's up to the listeners to decide between a difficult to get, expensive Angel record with surface noise and pops n clicks and nice condition, easily available later Odeon print of the same record.
{(P.S. The biggest drawback I see of the Odeon pressings of later time is it's lesser show-off value on social media. The power of "I have a first press Angel" is way higher than having the Odeon one, irrespective of their present condition n SQ....)}

Regards

 

[souravin]

As far as Angel vs Odeon pressings of Hindi film music is concerned, there shouldn't be much of ambiguity.
By now we all know the early era Odeon labels, when Angel labels were prevalent, were nothing but an Angel pressing with odeon labels for foreign markets. Anyone trying to differentiate sound quality between them is just wasting his/her time, IMHO.
As regards to later Odeon pressings of earlier Angel records, quite logically, the Angels sounded bold and open in comparison. But the catch is to get a nicely playable Angel copy in reasonable price. These records have become almost unobtainable nowadays. Whereas their Odeon counterparts are easier to get in great playing condition.
So it's up to the listeners to decide between a difficult to get, expensive Angel record with surface noise and pops n clicks and nice condition, easily available later Odeon print of the same record.
{(P.S. The biggest drawback I see of the Odeon pressings of later time is it's lesser show-off value on social media. The power of "I have a first press Angel" is way higher than having the Odeon one, irrespective of their present condition n SQ....)}

Regards

Dada this is very insightful. Missed to mention that I meant Odeon double ring only. Angel and Ring Odeon confronting each other.

Plain Odeon were later releases should be kept outside the purview for difference in vinyl material quality.

 

[Bhaskar Jyoti Talapatra]

Very good topic indeed. Recently I have bought some Bengali song LPs( Rabindrasangeet, nazrulgeeti, folk songs etc). Some of them are of the red nipper labels so I have expected much better SQ in comparison to the normal HMV pressing that I already have but I don't find any heaven and hell difference in SQ in between the red nipper and the black or white nipper.
Regards

 

[sig8]

I am trying to buy some used Hindi film music LPs on Discogs. I would like to know what is the difference in sound quality between original issue and reissue as shown in attached pictures, let's call the original the colored cover, and the reissue brown cover. There are several LPs like that.

Also, how are Pakistani EMI releases compared to Indian releases? Thanks.

 

[souravin]

I am trying to buy some used Hindi film music LPs on Discogs. I would like to know what is the difference in sound quality between original issue and reissue as shown in attached pictures, let's call the original the colored cover, and the reissue brown cover. There are several LPs like that.

Also, how are Pakistani EMI releases compared to Indian releases? Thanks.

First press Ring Angel or Ring Odeon have more depth and bass. Reissue HFLP are very very refined and thin on sound in most cases. There are exceptions but very few.

 

[sig8]

Any word on last 2017-2018 pressings sound quality. I don't expect much but just asking if anyone has any experience comparing to original pressings.

 

[sig8]

Are the Pakistan Odeon pressing sound quality as good as Indian pressing for Hindi movies?

 

[Hiten]

I am trying to buy some used Hindi film music LPs on Discogs. I would like to know what is the difference in sound quality between original issue and reissue as shown in attached pictures, let's call the original the colored cover, and the reissue brown cover. There are several LPs like that.

Also, how are Pakistani EMI releases compared to Indian releases? Thanks.

My hearing is not good but yes original issues as you have linked (Pictured photo graph) comparatively have good quality. I have found them having good dynamics and clean sounding. (mostly Jackets and vinyl are thicker) As for modern pressing I noticed on some songs having low sound level compared to cd(Probably companies want them to be played on all quality of turntables giving moderately good sound without stressing the stylus).
My personal opinion is if we have digital format there is no need to process it again two times and have them on vinyl(Unless one has master tape and is pressed by well known engineer). Some bollywood recording are not good in the first place. So they will not sound good on any format. There are threads on this aspect in the forum.
Pakistani Vinyls are mixed affair. I understand only those which were not pressed in India are sought after; so better to have indian pressing. Avoid far eastern pressings of yesteryears. I guess Israel, Netherland, South africa also used to press bollywood vinyls. But I have never heard them so dont know.

For Record lable/logo identification you can follow below given link as rough guide
LINK
The pictures are no longer there as it is an old thread. but you will understand from description.
Regards

 

[finevine]

MATRIX_NUMBERS

 

[shafic]

MATRIX_NUMBERS

Useful one.

 

[Bhim Bhai]

As far as Angel vs Odeon pressings of Hindi film music is concerned, there shouldn't be much of ambiguity.
By now we all know the early era Odeon labels, when Angel labels were prevalent, were nothing but an Angel pressing with odeon labels for foreign markets. Anyone trying to differentiate sound quality between them is just wasting his/her time, IMHO.
As regards to later Odeon pressings of earlier Angel records, quite logically, the Angels sounded bold and open in comparison. But the catch is to get a nicely playable Angel copy in reasonable price. These records have become almost unobtainable nowadays. Whereas their Odeon counterparts are easier to get in great playing condition.
So it's up to the listeners to decide between a difficult to get, expensive Angel record with surface noise and pops n clicks and nice condition, easily available later Odeon print of the same record.
{(P.S. The biggest drawback I see of the Odeon pressings of later time is it's lesser show-off value on social media. The power of "I have a first press Angel" is way higher than having the Odeon one, irrespective of their present condition n SQ....)}

Regards

This isn’t true at all

In the 1960’s, there were Angel’s for Indian market and White Sticker Odeon’s for export market.

There are large differences between the audio fidelity of the same album dependant on whether it was released on Angel or White Sticker Odeon.

To say people are wasting their time to decipher a difference is simply wrong and slightly arrogant.

 

[bhaskarcan]

This isn’t true at all

In the 1960’s, there were Angel’s for Indian market and White Sticker Odeon’s for export market.

There are large differences between the audio fidelity of the same album dependant on whether it was released on Angel or White Sticker Odeon.

To say people are wasting their time to decipher a difference is simply wrong and slightly arrogant.

Hi,
First of all, I'm very sorry if I sounded "Arrogant" in my quoted post.
Then off course, what do I know!!

Thanks a lot for your well researched and well documented reply.
It will be very helpfull for all of us, if you kindly share some of the research materials and sources supporting your opinion here.

I am sure members here will be hugely benefitted by your vinyl wisdom.

Regards

 

[Bhim Bhai]

Hi,
First of all, I'm very sorry if I sounded "Arrogant" in my quoted post.
Then off course, what do I know!!

Thanks a lot for your well researched and well documented reply.
It will be very helpfull for all of us, if you kindly share some of the research materials and sources supporting your opinion here.

I am sure members here will be hugely benefitted by your vinyl wisdom.

Regards

I understand subtext. You are saying provide ‘evidence’.

There is no ‘opinion’ here that I need to support.

 

[bhaskarcan]

I understand subtext. You are saying provide ‘evidence’.

There is no ‘opinion’ here that I need to support.

Hello,
Ah, ok! Here I was eagerly expecting an academic discussion on my favourite subject with fresh insight from a new member. However now it seems I'm going to be disappointed.

You called a fellow member "untruthful", "Wrong" and above all "arrogant" just because your "Subjective opinion" or "Hunch" or "Gut feeling" (as you refuse to furnish any logical reasoning behind your 'opinion") didn't match with his.

It would have been nice, instead, if we had discussed, with proper citation, the various stages and processes of record making, starting from sound recording, mixing, mastering, Matrix allocation, mother/ stamper production and finally record pressing of Indian Film Music of the 60's. ((Which, at the end, would have made it clear that those Angels for Indian market and their corresponding Odeons for foreign markets are basically same records with just different labels indeed.))

We could have referred to another similar phenomenon during the same time period involving Decca and London labels and similar controversy involving those two labels.
And the record companies' decision to use different labels for the same albums was just a commercial requirement and had nothing to do with technicalities.

But sadly, what we experience here, that you choose the path of unnecessary name-calling and personal attack, without adding anything of value to the forum.
The decorum of the forum could have been maintained in a more civil manner, specially from a New Member here.

I sincerely hope that next time when you would like to take part in some academic discussion as this one, you'll have your research and homework properly done.

Best regards

 

[Bhim Bhai]

Hello,
Ah, ok! Here I was eagerly expecting an academic discussion on my favourite subject with fresh insight from a new member. However now it seems I'm going to be disappointed.

You called a fellow member "untruthful", "Wrong" and above all "arrogant" just because your "Subjective opinion" or "Hunch" or "Gut feeling" (as you refuse to furnish any logical reasoning behind your 'opinion") didn't match with his.

It would have been nice, instead, if we had discussed, with proper citation, the various stages and processes of record making, starting from sound recording, mixing, mastering, Matrix allocation, mother/ stamper production and finally record pressing of Indian Film Music of the 60's. ((Which, at the end, would have made it clear that those Angels for Indian market and their corresponding Odeons for foreign markets are basically same records with just different labels indeed.))

We could have referred to another similar phenomenon during the same time period involving Decca and London labels and similar controversy involving those two labels.
And the record companies' decision to use different labels for the same albums was just a commercial requirement and had nothing to do with technicalities.

But sadly, what we experience here, that you choose the path of unnecessary name-calling and personal attack, without adding anything of value to the forum.
The decorum of the forum could have been maintained in a more civil manner, specially from a New Member here.

I sincerely hope that next time when you would like to take part in some academic discussion as this one, you'll have your research and homework properly done.

Best regards

Hello,
Ah, ok! Here I was eagerly expecting an academic discussion on my favourite subject with fresh insight from a new member. However now it seems I'm going to be disappointed.

You called a fellow member "untruthful", "Wrong" and above all "arrogant" just because your "Subjective opinion" or "Hunch" or "Gut feeling" (as you refuse to furnish any logical reasoning behind your 'opinion") didn't match with his.

It would have been nice, instead, if we had discussed, with proper citation, the various stages and processes of record making, starting from sound recording, mixing, mastering, Matrix allocation, mother/ stamper production and finally record pressing of Indian Film Music of the 60's. ((Which, at the end, would have made it clear that those Angels for Indian market and their corresponding Odeons for foreign markets are basically same records with just different labels indeed.))

We could have referred to another similar phenomenon during the same time period involving Decca and London labels and similar controversy involving those two labels.
And the record companies' decision to use different labels for the same albums was just a commercial requirement and had nothing to do with technicalities.

But sadly, what we experience here, that you choose the path of unnecessary name-calling and personal attack, without adding anything of value to the forum.
The decorum of the forum could have been maintained in a more civil manner, specially from a New Member here.

I sincerely hope that next time when you would like to take part in some academic discussion as this one, you'll have your research and homework properly done.

Best regards

Oh dear lad.

My decorum is absolutely fine. You feel embarrassed hence your emotional response.

It is wrong and arrogant to spread misinformation. There is a difference between Angel and White Stickered Odeon pressings of the 60’s.

What is worse is you’ve then repeated your error again and then arrogantly and wrongly told me to do my homework and research properly.

I shouldn’t even be providing this considering the tone of your message sent on the 28/01/24, however you need to learn;

I have ample experience of collecting both types and have vast knowledge into particular albums and the fidelity of each variant.

I expect a swift apology.

 

[bhaskarcan]

Oh dear lad.

My decorum is absolutely fine. You feel embarrassed hence your emotional response.

It is wrong and arrogant to spread misinformation. There is a difference between Angel and White Stickered Odeon pressings of the 60’s.

What is worse is you’ve then repeated your error again and then arrogantly and wrongly told me to do my homework and research properly.

I shouldn’t even be providing this considering the tone of your message sent on the 28/01/24, however you need to learn;

I have ample experience of collecting both types and have vast knowledge into particular albums and the fidelity of each variant.

I expect a swift apology.

Hi again,

What's there in the video? Nothing but a Subjective Comparison between two pressings. And in the comment section of that same video many have even opined that Angel sounded "Better" ( I nor agree neither disagree with their very subjective opinions).

You can keep repeating your Subjective Opinion and just because you "think" a particular label sounds comparatively better, it doesn't change the Fact that 60's Angels and Odeons were indeed identical pressings with different labels for different markets.

Kindly learn the History of vinyl production in India, specifically DumDum, Calcutta, (in this context), otherwise your self proclaimed "vast knowledge" sounds hollow.

And finally, if you're confident that I am knowingly spreading misinformation, as you nicely claim, you're welcome to report those so called "misguiding posts" to the moderators.

Regards

 

[Bhim Bhai]

Hi again,

What's there in the video? Nothing but a Subjective Comparison between two pressings. And in the comment section of that same video many have even opined that Angel sounded "Better" ( I nor agree neither disagree with their very subjective opinions).

You can keep repeating your Subjective Opinion and just because you "think" a particular label sounds comparatively better, it doesn't change the Fact that 60's Angels and Odeons were indeed identical pressings with different labels for different markets.

Kindly learn the History of vinyl production in India, specifically DumDum, Calcutta, (in this context), otherwise your self proclaimed "vast knowledge" sounds hollow.

And finally, if you're confident that I am knowingly spreading misinformation, as you nicely claim, you're welcome to report those so called "misguiding posts" to the moderators.

Regards

Oh my. Your response is deeply and profoundly mortifying.


1. I have NEVER stated what label I 'think' sounds comparatively better. I have simply stated there is a difference in audio fidelity between Angel and Odeon pressings. Not once have I stated my own personal opinion about preference between the two.

2. I highly advise you to research deeper into the Everything Analogue YouTube Channel, where the creator, one of the foremost vinyl collectors of Bollywood music in India talks about the differing use of pellets in the production at DUM DUM between Angel and Odeon, which causes the differences in audio fidelity between the two.

3. The creator of the channel, Jai Viraat Singh can be contacted at [email protected]. He has vast knowledge, owning both Angel and Odeon copies of the same album. I'm sure he can share his vast knowledge, and you may learn something that will be useful in your life.


Lastly, and most amusingly


4. 'What's there in the video?' you ask. Firstly, ask yourself, why would the creator be making a comparison video between Angel and Odeon?

5. This is the description of the video the creator states;

"After numerous discussions around the sonic qualities of Angel and Odeon labels; I finally decided to make a video. So here it is with the same song, same turntable, same cartridge, and same settings. Listen carefully, enjoy the song and do comment on which one you like the most. "​

6. There is not ONE SINGLE comment on the video where any person has stated the two sound exactly the same.

7. Comments are of people talking about about the difference of the audio fidelity between the two pressings they just heard audio clips of.

• You have repeated your misinformation THREE times now without any sense of awareness.
• There is not only my experience to draw from, but 35 comments on the video.
• There is also audible evidence of a difference between the two pressings.

There is nothing more I can say or do. Either a person admits and says they are wrong, and they'll learn to be better for the future, or they embarrass themselves deeply.

 

[bhaskarcan]

Oh my. Your response is deeply and profoundly mortifying.


1. I have NEVER stated what label I 'think' sounds comparatively better. I have simply stated there is a difference in audio fidelity between Angel and Odeon pressings. Not once have I stated my own personal opinion about preference between the two.

2. I highly advise you to research deeper into the Everything Analogue YouTube Channel, where the creator, one of the foremost vinyl collectors of Bollywood music in India talks about the differing use of pellets in the production at DUM DUM between Angel and Odeon, which causes the differences in audio fidelity between the two.

3. The creator of the channel, Jai Viraat Singh can be contacted at [email protected]. He has vast knowledge, owning both Angel and Odeon copies of the same album. I'm sure he can share his vast knowledge, and you may learn something that will be useful in your life.


Lastly, and most amusingly


4. 'What's there in the video?' you ask. Firstly, ask yourself, why would the creator be making a comparison video between Angel and Odeon?

5. This is the description of the video the creator states;

"After numerous discussions around the sonic qualities of Angel and Odeon labels; I finally decided to make a video. So here it is with the same song, same turntable, same cartridge, and same settings. Listen carefully, enjoy the song and do comment on which one you like the most. "​

6. There is not ONE SINGLE comment on the video where any person has stated the two sound exactly the same.

7. Comments are of people talking about about the difference of the audio fidelity between the two pressings they just heard audio clips of.

• You have repeated your misinformation THREE times now without any sense of awareness.
• There is not only my experience to draw from, but 35 comments on the video.
• There is also audible evidence of a difference between the two pressings.

There is nothing more I can say or do. Either a person admits and says they are wrong, and they'll learn to be better for the future, or they embarrass themselves deeply.

Ok then it's decided.
You stay with your Subjective opinion & "vast knowledge" derived from some "Hearsay". I have no interest in what you "think".

And let us, the lesser mortals, remain happy with the FACT of actual vinyl making procedure learned from the Stalwarts of Record Making industry in India.