What makes a system sound good at low volumes?

[Kannan]

Thanks Kannan. Well explained answer. What would you suggest could be a solution if the default preamp gain is higher and there’s no way to change the gain on the pre or the power amp. With my tube pre, I cannot use the volume knob above 10 am (it starts at 6 am position) as the volume gets too loud (above 90 dB). This is the case even with powerful power amp (dual mono 120 w per channel). I guess that’s because my BS speakers are 89 dB and pretty easy to drive. Is there an easy way to get around this apart from going for low sensitivity speakers? Or it’s something that I can ignore?

Most modern electronics do not have this option, but can be done with some knowledge of electronics.
That is why it is extremely difficult and extremely critical to match pre and power. This is where integrated amps give relief, but again the older integrated go into clipping easily as modern sources output 2 volts or sometimes even more from the balanced section.
What happens when it goes into clipping early is that we do not get the wider bandwidth on the volume to adjust to the needed listening levels.

So matching the impedance and the sensitivity between the output source (pre) and the power amp plays an important role.
Simply said, the preamp is one of the most important stages in the audio chain.

This said, at times having no pre and using the bit perfect volume on software based media players like a PC is a boon.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Normal gain structure of an amp is around 26 dB. Your Kinki has 2 settings. 26 dB and 22 dB. Your Denafrips is 2.3 v output. That’s a bit higher than normal. So 22 dB will also work well.

Prem, when I designed my phono preamp I had 42 dB gain which was sounding quite good. Later I added a line level preamplifier with a gain of 9.5 dB. So for CD player and tape deck that sounded perfect, that overloaded the phono stage. I later reduced the phono stage gain to 36 dB to match other sources.

 

[prem]

Hari, 36-48 dB is the gain most phono amps have in mm mode. 6-12 dB gain is what most pre amps have. And 18-26 dB gain is what most power amps have.

Overload also depends on output voltage of source and input sensitivity of amp. Most amps used in studios have typically a 1.55 v output voltage for the source and 1 v input sensitivity for the amp. Matching output voltage and input sensitivity is very important. For example if output is 1.5 v and input sensitivity of amp is 2 v, then it’s a bad mismatch. On the other hand if output is 2 v and input sensitivity is 0.3 v, then it will get overloaded. That’s also highly avoidable. In pro audio, they normally talk of output voltage and input sensitivity for matching

 

[essrand]

Sachin, he has also recommended components. That list is fairly interesting. He has classified them as A, B, C and entry level. You will find recommendations for power amps, pre amps, phono, digital, turntable, speakers and accessories. He seems to have a bias for Coincident Technology products but if you can ignore that bias it’s worth a read

It was based on that blog I bought my Coincident 300b amps. Didn't regret it , but yes a big bias for coincident.

 

[kratu]

I remember reading a discussion in this and the general experience was to keep the amp at the lowest gain with which it can drive the speaker at low volumes one generally listens to. Usually higher the gain higher the distortion and hence keep that at the lowest.

I wish most amps have adjustable gain. My headphone amp and phono preamp have these. It makes it easier to choose our preference. Although, I end up choosing the lowest gain for the same reasons you mentioned.

Do you think most amps have these? The other option is to choose the DIY route.

 

[bornfi]

With due respect to all techies here, what I have learnt over these years is that though electricity is needed to run the whole this itself becomes an issue with preamplifiers. At preamplification stage, signal is like a new-born kid and it needs to be handled delicately and the moment electricity is introduced to the box(preamplifier), the signal become heavily adulterated in the sense that you no longer get to hear what designer of the output stage of your source wanted you to. In my opinion/experience, even best of premaps mask details adds something of their own and robs music of its beauty.

Those who haven't experienced it yet, I would encourage trying passive preamplifier. If not, if you have integrated/preamplifier, you may want to get into an expensive experiment by replacing the volume pot by something like Alps RK50. I strongly doubt that quality of volume pot is the key and a bad one (in fact even the good ones such as Alps blue etc) kills the signal.

And the second thing is transportation of digital data (if you have DAC) for which I will keep repeating (until you all label me as PAGAL ), if you haven't read about Dante, you haven't realized potential of digital content and your DAC. Trust me that clarity and precise placement of notes in the space is one of the greatest contributor of listening at low volume.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Hari, 36-48 dB is the gain most phono amps have in mm mode. 6-12 dB gain is what most pre amps have. And 18-26 dB gain is what most power amps have.

Overload also depends on output voltage of source and input sensitivity of amp. Most amps used in studios have typically a 1.55 v output voltage for the source and 1 v input sensitivity for the amp. Matching output voltage and input sensitivity is very important. For example if output is 1.5 v and input sensitivity of amp is 2 v, then it’s a bad mismatch. On the other hand if output is 2 v and input sensitivity is 0.3 v, then it will get overloaded. That’s also highly avoidable. In pro audio, they normally talk of output voltage and input sensitivity for matching

Thanks Prem for the insights. My jfet input preamp has an input sensitivity of 1v and output voltage of 2.95v. so they approximately translate to around 9.2 dB.

 

[Hari Iyer]

With due respect to all techies here, what I have learnt over these years is that though electricity is needed to run the whole this itself becomes an issue with preamplifiers. At preamplification stage, signal is like a new-born kid and it needs to be handled delicately and the moment electricity is introduced to the box(preamplifier), the signal become heavily adulterated in the sense that you no longer get to hear what designer of the output stage of your source wanted you to. In my opinion/experience, even best of premaps mask details adds something of their own and robs music of its beauty.

Those who haven't experienced it yet, I would encourage trying passive preamplifier. If not, if you have integrated/preamplifier, you may want to get into an expensive experiment by replacing the volume pot by something like Alps RK50. I strongly doubt that quality of volume pot is the key and a bad one (in fact even the good ones such as Alps blue etc) kills the signal.

And the second thing is transportation of digital data (if you have DAC) for which I will keep repeating (until you all label me as PAGAL ), if you haven't read about Dante, you haven't realized potential of digital content and your DAC. Trust me that clarity and precise placement of notes in the space is one of the greatest contributor of listening at low volume.

I tackled both these issues as follows,
- used a dual lead acid chargeable battery for my preamplifier
- don't have any volume control knob for my preamplifier ( my tube power amp already has that )

 

[newlash09]

With due respect to all techies here, what I have learnt over these years is that though electricity is needed to run the whole this itself becomes an issue with preamplifiers. At preamplification stage, signal is like a new-born kid and it needs to be handled delicately and the moment electricity is introduced to the box(preamplifier), the signal become heavily adulterated in the sense that you no longer get to hear what designer of the output stage of your source wanted you to. In my opinion/experience, even best of premaps mask details adds something of their own and robs music of its beauty.

Those who haven't experienced it yet, I would encourage trying passive preamplifier. If not, if you have integrated/preamplifier, you may want to get into an expensive experiment by replacing the volume pot by something like Alps RK50. I strongly doubt that quality of volume pot is the key and a bad one (in fact even the good ones such as Alps blue etc) kills the signal.

And the second thing is transportation of digital data (if you have DAC) for which I will keep repeating (until you all label me as PAGAL ), if you haven't read about Dante, you haven't realized potential of digital content and your DAC. Trust me that clarity and precise placement of notes in the space is one of the greatest contributor of listening at low volume.

Hi bornfi

Your above post got me intrigued about dante. Can you please elaborate a bit please. Iam already running a roon setup with a dedicated end point and it is sounding bloody superb. It finally after 3 years of heart breaks and bank breaks that I arrived here. My one year roon subscription ends in jan 2020. Though I am really happy with roon and won't hesitate to pay the usd700 for a life time license when the time comes. I wouldn't mind looking at alternatives at this point, before I take the lifetime plunge. Thanks in advance for your time

 

[bornfi]

Hi bornfi

Your above post got me intrigued about dante. Can you please elaborate a bit please. Iam already running a roon setup with a dedicated end point and it is sounding bloody superb. It finally after 3 years of heart breaks and bank breaks that I arrived here. My one year roon subscription ends in jan 2020. Though I am really happy with roon and won't hesitate to pay the usd700 for a life time license when the time comes. I wouldn't mind looking at alternatives at this point, before I take the lifetime plunge. Thanks in advance for your time

I started this thread https://www.hifivision.com/threads/interest-check-dante-aoip-tour.73385/#post-828788 long ago. Please go through it and let me know if you have any specific question.

In short, Dante is nothing but another format signal of which travels through only Ethernet cables so, at source end, you convert signal to Dante format and then at the target, Dante to SPDIF/AES. Though everybody's perception is different, this was kind of eye-opener for me. It is from the pro-world where they can handle hundreds of channels so, pretty robust. Ironically, associated products aren't highlighted for Hifi instead they suggest it for conference rooms and Skype.

 

[newlash09]

I started this thread https://www.hifivision.com/threads/interest-check-dante-aoip-tour.73385/#post-828788 long ago. Please go through it and let me know if you have any specific question.

In short, Dante is nothing but another format signal of which travels through only Ethernet cables so, at source end, you convert signal to Dante format and then at the target, Dante to SPDIF/AES. Though everybody's perception is different, this was kind of eye-opener for me. It is from the pro-world where they can handle hundreds of channels so, pretty robust. Ironically, associated products aren't highlighted for Hifi instead they suggest it for conference rooms and Skype.

Thanks a ton..Will check it up

 

[arj]

I wish most amps have adjustable gain. My headphone amp and phono preamp have these. It makes it easier to choose our preference. Although, I end up choosing the lowest gain for the same reasons you mentioned.

Do you think most amps have these? The other option is to choose the DIY route.

dont think this is much of an option in most amps unfortunately, but it plays a part in choice of components ie for a Phono choose one with min gain which keeps the overall gain of the system enough to drive the speaker.. i prefer that at around 10-11 o clock position the amp runs the speaker load enough.
While we can talk about the quantity of gain, the quality of the gain is more important..so there could be components with higher gain which are better than lower alternatives, Or same component working better at the higher gain setting than the lower gain one for a particular Speaker-Amp

 

[COOLDUDE7808]

Essentially its about listening to all the frequencies ....this cannot be done unless you raise the volume OR low frequencies are boosted when the volume is low ...that's where loudness button comes in


old amps had loudness button , which is absent in most of the new amps ...marantz PM6006 has that ...the other option is equalizer to boost frequencies ...or sub woofer also does the job to some extent ... unfortunately there is this audiophile propaganda against loudness and equalizer options ,that it distorts sound ...so people are advised to try different cables , placement, something under and over the player , change curtains , put a mat , etc etc ...

AVR's have this audyssey options which also does the job ....

 

[rahuln]

Yes, the loudness control helps and its not just on the old amps but its there on the new one such as Yamaha N-R803. One of the key reasons for me to get this amp is due to loudness control as I use my system quite often for background music at low volume. Not only it has loudness control but an auto option (YPAO volume) which adjusts the sound based on current volume.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Ok, let me share my experiments and experience over the past couple of days which could be of some relevance here. I discovered that my system had some boom in the bass and a bloom in the sound. I made two changes/adjustments.

I realised through this thread that my Lyrita tube preamp has much more gain than my humble Castle Knight 2 speakers need. I couldn’t do anything to lower the gain as there’s no setting for that. However, I tried changing the interconnect between my DAC and the pre. Earlier I had the Lyrita IC - which is quite transparent but also uncontrolled. Now, this was purely intuitively (not supported by established logic) that I wondered what if I replace it with a more controlled IC? I dug out my old Van den Hul Hybrid IC which is known to tame sound and that’s precisely what it did! The bloom (not the boom) vanished as a result. The sound is now what I can term as ‘less hot’. It makes for easier listening at higher volumes and on heavier music.

Secondly I realised that the large French (Glass) window on the side of the left speaker was reflecting sound and also creating standing waves (hope that’s the right term) in the corner behind that speaker. This was leading to the bass boom. I tried listening with the window open - something that I always avoided. And there was a big difference. The bass got tightened (as the bass absorption was 100% now). Naturally the details in the treble as well as the vocals improved. I cannot keep the window open always and need to try out solutions like bass traps, but that’s for later.

Coming to the relevance to this thread, as a result of reduced (almost eliminated) bloom and boom due to the above, the low volume fidelity of my system has improved significantly. Now I can go to upto 66 dB avg vol till which the music sounds good (no loss of detail and the liveliness intact). Below this there is a gradual loss, but is listenable till about 63db. Below that I don’t feel like listening to it. I can live with this for now. Surely better amplifiers and speakers can improve this further, but am glad I am realising more of the potential that existed in my current system.

 

[mpw]

music sounds good at low volumes when :-

a. there is nobody at home
b. the maid is absent for the day - so no clanging of vessels while washing them in the kitchen sink
c. a good single malt on the side

 

[flute]

I prefer with no controls

An ideal system should be with no controls

No bass or treble controls

 

[Nitin K]

I prefer with no controls

An ideal system should be with no controls

No bass or treble controls

That would be true in an idealistic scenario. But imperfect recordings, small speakers or personal tastes would necessitate tone controls to balance sound to a certain extent.

music sounds good at low volumes when :-

a. there is nobody at home
b. the maid is absent for the day - so no clanging of vessels while washing them in the kitchen sink
c. a good single malt on the side

Please add the noise of the pressure cooker too to the list.

 

[Hari Iyer]

I prefer with no controls

An ideal system should be with no controls

No bass or treble controls

I too prefer no bass and treble controls. Hence replaced them with a 31+ 31 band graphic equaliser.

Please add the noise of the pressure cooker too to the list.

How about the annoying doorbells too.

 

[Nikhil]

Here is what I do in JRiver to improve low level details for my setup
I use both Volume Leveling and Adaptive Volume.








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