What to do to improve western classical music listening on my setup?

[gurujee]

What kind of classical music? Chamber/small scale works or orchestral?

I am a fan of larger-scale symphonies, and to my ears, the only system that has come close to replicating the sound of a live orchestra is a single-ended tube amp paired with high sensitivity speakers (ideally, horns). That said, if you have a small enough room, you can get by 91-92dB/W speakers as well.

IMO, you need the following things for orchestral works:
- a thick midrange supported by deep bass with somewhat smooth/warm highs
- a high dynamic range: if that is compressed, it affects how we perceive the music. An allegro without slam is an andante with pretensions!
- timbral accuracy: you want to hear not just leading edge of the instrument, but also the trailing edge and decay

For chamber music, you can give up a little on the high dynamic range and still be ok. And depending on your listening preferences, you may want something with a bit more neutral sound, albeit still somewhat smooth/warm highs.

Where exactly is your system failing right now?

Thanks so much for this detailed reply. Not a critical listener here. Listen to all that sounds right for the mood. Mahler symphonies, Debussy, Chopin, Rachmanioff concerto, nocturnes, etc.
The dissatisfaction is due to- The quite passages are hardly audible but the loud passages come with a bang all of a sudden.

1) I have been streaming 320kpbs MP3s and lossless ALACs - from Red Book to 24/192 - and while there may be a difference in quality, it is at best minor. Certainly not enough to make you go "this sucks" with one and "this is awesome" with the other. If it sucks with MP3s, it is going to suck with lossless - just marginally less so. And the reverse

2) You do not necessarily need more amplification unless you are listening at a very loud volume, in a very large room and your issues are the absolute crescendos. 1W will put out 87dB or so at 1m with a typical speaker - 81dB if you are sitting 2m from the speakers or 75dB if you are sitting a massive 4m away. The "100W" rated power of your amp will get you up to or over 99dB at around 64W - and maybe higher, if the sensitivity numbers are anechoic, vs in-room.

3) The difference in sound between amplifiers of suitable power is minimal - to the point that it is hard to differentiate between what is real and what is placebo. Let's put it this way - its gonna be the same as with 320kbps and lossless: going from one type of solid state amp to another is not to make the music go from "meh" to "awesome" - it will go from "meh" to "slightly less meh". At best. (To be clear, i am referring to the typical solid state amp you are going to get in this price range - which is likely Class D or Class AB with heavy dose of global feedback applied to make it measure well).

4) If you are hearing a huge difference between the 6007 and your AVR, it is likely equalization or some post-proc by your AVR.

5) If i had to make a wild-ass guess about your system - i will say that those Pioneers are biased to have a V-shaped FR, which is great for movies and may be ok for some types of music, but which sucks donkey dong when it comes to classical music. Eq it as the first option - otherwise, and i hate to say this, consider a different brand of speakers. Transducers are what make most of the tangible difference in sound quality. I will recommend Sonus Fabers (pretty much anything) or Indiqs (model depending on the type of classical music you listen to).

Thanks so much. I will try EQing first or will change the speakers.

 

[Bloom@83]

@gurujee :

Play this album on Apple Music to check your dynamics , soundstage , PRAT etc.

 

[manek]

Beautifully said!!!

western classical is all about Macro dynamics. and memory of a sound always seems better than the actual sound

Instead of changing anything try to place your speakers + sub in a more optimal way and see if it makes a difference.

So i agree with arj on the macro dynamics but there are equal amount of micro dynamics involved depending on the piece, composer etc.

The word used was “uninspiring”. I would interpret it as pale, listless, no slam, etc….list goes on.

You may have tried whats written below buy just thought I would write them down again.

There is a sealed box sub. Thats a great starting point. Sub placement in the room is crucial but you could start with the sub dead center between the speakers, adjust to compensate for timing electronically via avr or sub or physical placement. Also subs placed inappropriately muddy a lot of stuff that the main speakers may be doing right. Get that right first. Set the sub volume low so as to gently re-enforce the floor standers. Use without a sub and with floor standers Playing full range to see if it sounds better in any way. Placement of the floorstanders may need to change accordingly with proper toe-in.

Second, if you feel there is a lack of presence or a dip in the midrange, the toe-in will help or try the direct mode or try using the built in EQ of AVR. Nothing wrong in using EQ.

Third, make sure your source material is decent. Use apple music lossless mode 24/48. That will help.

Rip a cd you have thats also available on apple music. Make sure apple music version is lossless. Compare the two. If you find your cd rip sounding better you know where one of the problems lie.

 

[DB1989]

western classical is all about Macro dynamics. and memory of a sound always seems better than the actual sound

Instead of changing anything try to place your speakers + sub in a more optimal way and see if it makes a difference.

I was scrolling through the comments to see whether anybody has recommended speaker placement and as suggested, that's the first step that needs to be got right before changing speakers/amps/DACs, high bit rate music.

No doubt, changing the abovesaid components will make a difference to the sound reproduction but it may not necessarily be the improvement you were hoping for. Pumping more power into your speakers cannot overcome room nulls and peaks.

You've got a well respected pair of speakers driven by a very good AVR. You should have no problem in getting good dynamics and legibility. If in doubt, simply listen to the "flight of the cosmic hippo" playing through the Quad S2 driven by a Marantz SR7010 put up by @ssf on YouTube. The Quad S2s have a rather low sensitivity (around 86db), yet the dynamics were scintillating to say the least!

I often listen to music on my Marantz AVR (SR6013) as it has better synergy with some of my speakers than "purpose built for music" IAs. Suffice to say, it never fails to get my foot tapping!

In your system, it seems that the legibility and dynamic range has suffered due to the balance of the system not being right. Since EQing helped, you're on the right track. Get the positional EQ right and you can iron out remaining nasties through digital EQ. Remember, EQing cannot overcome nulls in the room.

First get the speakers positioned correctly and then the sub.

And before trying positional EQ with your speakers, do remember to switch off your sub!

P.s.: I won't get into the nitty gritties of positioning as there are already plenty of great setup guides on this forum.

 

[manek]

And try not to use the sub if you can when playing classical music and if you must pls set the avr to pass frequencies below 40-45 hz to the sub but pls ensure the sub only very gently re-enforces the lower freq’s. I cant stress on that much more. On my part enuff said .

 

[keith_correa]

Also, what is your sub crossed over at? What volume have you set at the sub? Is the sub volume "level matched"?

 

[gurujee]

@gurujee :

Play this album on Apple Music to check your dynamics , soundstage , PRAT etc.

Thanks so much. Sorry for late reply as was busy in the weekdays. Now I followed tips from other members. Did a speaker setup (though not much I can do for space issue) Ran audyssey again. I am yet to test this album thoroughly. but when checked the dynamism test track, the speakers still act dumb. I will do thorough check again.

So i agree with arj on the macro dynamics but there are equal amount of micro dynamics involved depending on the piece, composer etc.

The word used was “uninspiring”. I would interpret it as pale, listless, no slam, etc….list goes on.

You may have tried whats written below buy just thought I would write them down again.

There is a sealed box sub. Thats a great starting point. Sub placement in the room is crucial but you could start with the sub dead center between the speakers, adjust to compensate for timing electronically via avr or sub or physical placement. Also subs placed inappropriately muddy a lot of stuff that the main speakers may be doing right. Get that right first. Set the sub volume low so as to gently re-enforce the floor standers. Use without a sub and with floor standers Playing full range to see if it sounds better in any way. Placement of the floorstanders may need to change accordingly with proper toe-in.

Second, if you feel there is a lack of presence or a dip in the midrange, the toe-in will help or try the direct mode or try using the built in EQ of AVR. Nothing wrong in using EQ.

Third, make sure your source material is decent. Use apple music lossless mode 24/48. That will help.

Rip a cd you have thats also available on apple music. Make sure apple music version is lossless. Compare the two. If you find your cd rip sounding better you know where one of the problems lie.

Thank you for the tips. Did the subwoofer placement and placed inside the two speakers. Previously it was outside the right speaker (as an aesthetic choice) now the blending in with the speakers are little better. Playing full range also improves the output for classical music to a certain extent. Playing a ripped lossless track and apple music has almost the same impact as what I felt. At this point is it ok to think that the speaker's dynamic range is inefficient for producing classical music?

I was scrolling through the comments to see whether anybody has recommended speaker placement and as suggested, that's the first step that needs to be got right before changing speakers/amps/DACs, high bit rate music.

No doubt, changing the abovesaid components will make a difference to the sound reproduction but it may not necessarily be the improvement you were hoping for. Pumping more power into your speakers cannot overcome room nulls and peaks.

You've got a well respected pair of speakers driven by a very good AVR. You should have no problem in getting good dynamics and legibility. If in doubt, simply listen to the "flight of the cosmic hippo" playing through the Quad S2 driven by a Marantz SR7010 put up by @ssf on YouTube. The Quad S2s have a rather low sensitivity (around 86db), yet the dynamics were scintillating to say the least!

I often listen to music on my Marantz AVR (SR6013) as it has better synergy with some of my speakers than "purpose built for music" IAs. Suffice to say, it never fails to get my foot tapping!

In your system, it seems that the legibility and dynamic range has suffered due to the balance of the system not being right. Since EQing helped, you're on the right track. Get the positional EQ right and you can iron out remaining nasties through digital EQ. Remember, EQing cannot overcome nulls in the room.

First get the speakers positioned correctly and then the sub.

And before trying positional EQ with your speakers, do remember to switch off your sub!

P.s.: I won't get into the nitty gritties of positioning as there are already plenty of great setup guides on this forum.

Thanks. I followed PS audio Paul's speaker placement advice again and rearranged my setup. (though the space issues impose restriction, only 1 feet from back wall) Thanks again. It improved the overall sound of my system but for classical it still suffers. For example, i played Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture, the first few 35 seconds are almost silent and after 40 seconds it starts to be audible. I applied dynamic volume in avr which certainly compensates for the audibility issue of quite passages but the sound becomes uneven with dip and dive.

And try not to use the sub if you can when playing classical music and if you must pls set the avr to pass frequencies below 40-45 hz to the sub but pls ensure the sub only very gently re-enforces the lower freq’s. I cant stress on that much more. On my part enuff said .

Oops, I have not done this. Will test and tell.

Also, what is your sub crossed over at? What volume have you set at the sub? Is the sub volume "level matched"?

Sub is crossed at 60 by audyssey (i sometimes set it to 80 when listening to some new bollywood tracks)
Volume on sub is around 40/50. Can you please hint towards 'sub volume level matched'?

 

[bobbyndd]

I think you have reached a saturation point with the current Pioneers Go for the kill!

 

[manek]

Thanks so much. Sorry for late reply as was busy in the weekdays. Now I followed tips from other members. Did a speaker setup (though not much I can do for space issue) Ran audyssey again. I am yet to test this album thoroughly. but when checked the dynamism test track, the speakers still act dumb. I will do thorough check again.

Thank you for the tips. Did the subwoofer placement and placed inside the two speakers. Previously it was outside the right speaker (as an aesthetic choice) now the blending in with the speakers are little better. Playing full range also improves the output for classical music to a certain extent. Playing a ripped lossless track and apple music has almost the same impact as what I felt. At this point is it ok to think that the speaker's dynamic range is inefficient for producing classical music?

Thanks. I followed PS audio Paul's speaker placement advice again and rearranged my setup. (though the space issues impose restriction, only 1 feet from back wall) Thanks again. It improved the overall sound of my system but for classical it still suffers. For example, i played Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture, the first few 35 seconds are almost silent and after 40 seconds it starts to be audible. I applied dynamic volume in avr which certainly compensates for the audibility issue of quite passages but the sound becomes uneven with dip and dive.

Oops, I have not done this. Will test and tell.

Sub is crossed at 60 by audyssey (i sometimes set it to 80 when listening to some new bollywood tracks)
Volume on sub is around 40/50. Can you please hint towards 'sub volume level matched'?

Btw a good 1812 overture recording has to have a large dynamic range. The first 30-35 seconds are meant to be soft, very soft and as the piece goes along it will get louder. So I am not sure what is it that you are trying to achieve. And why would you only evaluate your system on this one piece when there is tons of other stuff written by Tchaikovsky and other composers ? From Tchaikovsky’s plate try Francesca de Rimini, Romeo and Juliet, March Slave, the second symphony called The little Russian, the 5 th symphony last movement, etc…From the other composers Beethoven 5th and 9th, Verdi Requiem, and the list goes on. Also I dont quite know what you meant by saying speakers have reached their dynamic limits ? What exactly are you missing ?

BTW in classical music it is not uncommon to have extremely soft passages(virtually not audible) which slowly build up as the piece is played. It all depends on the conductor and sometimes bad mic placement and sometimes its intentional so as to highlight the dynamics of that passage played.