Why are LCD/Plamas so costly ?

[Thad E Ginathom]

do note the world is bigger then this forum,millions of people in india still own 14" crts and that too only when the government provided them for free.
if they all start to buy flat panels when they can afford then,the prices will fall faster.

The world is bigger than India!

LCD TVs are far from new, and far from being a niche product.

NOTE: Link courtesy Thad E Imagination

LOL, thanks!

Last time I looked, a dosa cost about ten times as much in London as in Chennai. Anybody living in London on the minimum wage (and many do) is poor.

 

[BLASTO]

Common which TV company u belong to buddy? LCD swill be sold in footpaths after 5 to 6 years. In the name of R&D u can't loot the consumer. And for everybodys knowledge LCD consumes lot off electicity like a40'' lcd= 400watts Guess what will be ur power bill??:yahoo:

I think you have joined just two days back and are flaming at the members for no particular reason.

Browse through the forum and read my threads on my analysis before I bought a single TV. If I were from a TV company,I would have got one from my company with discounts.

Some people just wait and wait and wait for the prices to come down and thinking that they will get a better product cheaper. They only buy a product when it is about to die. I can imagine you saying that the LCDs will be sold in streets for 15k rupees and consoling yourself whenever there is a talk about LCDs.

Hi, Its a damn hype companys wanted to make a quick buck at the earliest. They know another 5 years down the line 42" LCD will cost not more than 15k. If u have money want to show off go and buy a LCD for 70k or so. call all ur neibours,relatives,friends & boost yourself. Or just use ur good old tv for 2 more years & buy a better featured LCD for 15k.

I can understand your frustration that you cannot buy an LCD TV now when your neighbour got one and is showing it off to you. But this is not a place to show it.

Get a 42" LCD for 15k and then you can come and talk here. Until then it is only assumption. And you are very ill informed when you say that 42" LCD takes 400 watts of power. Do your homework before posting rubbish.

 

[The_Falcon]

The world is bigger than India!

LCD TVs are far from new, and far from being a niche product.

LOL, thanks!

Last time I looked, a dosa cost about ten times as much in London as in Chennai. Anybody living in London on the minimum wage (and many do) is poor.

Name corrected..sorry for the goofup.

 

[madbullram]

Rajanravi: Everyone in the forum has there views and they have their needs and budgets. No one is insanely rich and blowing guns here. All of us share our experience and more importantly share our failures so that others don't. I suggest you mellow down on your statement and be objective to the need than going ahead with motherhood statements.

 

[psychotropic]

dude that is utter and total bullshit. a 46" LCD consumes roughly 200-250 watts. Why is it that you've joined this forum and are making broad sweeping statements and demonstrating to the world that you know nothing of what you speak?

Common which TV company u belong to buddy? LCD swill be sold in footpaths after 5 to 6 years. In the name of R&D u can't loot the consumer. And for everybodys knowledge LCD consumes lot off electicity like a40'' lcd= 400watts Guess what will be ur power bill??:yahoo:

 

[nirrej]

so nirrej what is your point?

Once incomes go up, adoption gets more widespread, and volumes increase (and yes cost of production decreases), the CE companies will be able to reduce the prices.

Volumes will not guarantee a reduction in prices.
There are many Nokia phones which sell more but prices haven't reduced,for these partcular models. Wheras prices of newly launched models with less sales have comedown heavily. 6303 which is a successor to 6300 (a 3 year old model) today sells for a price lesser than its predecessor.

My friend who owns a franchisee of a popular electronics chain,
tells me the margins in an LCD of size 40 and above is 30%.
Now do you understand why LCD's occupy the majority space in all retail stores!!

We all know that LCD as a technology is still not fully developed. The glamour and aesthetics associated with an LCD is what sells it, rather than the product. (aka Bose)

If a gamer or an Blu-ray owner buys a HD LCD it makes sense. But if you see, the majority of LCD buyers are people who watch only SD telecasts.
They buy an LCD because itz the "in-thing" without knowing about the serious limits it has in reproducing SD signals.

Will you buy a car or even a refrigerator which is not a fully developed one?
i mean a beta or test version. LCDs are in their beta stage as far as SD telecast is concerned, and that is what it will do in 98% of the homes which buy one. If we stop this mad rush to buy LCDs defnitely prices will come down to realistic levels. and this talk about companies spending billions of dollars in LCD R&D is not true.. even ISRO doesn't spend so much to develop those complicated rockets!!!

 

[nirrej]

i never said cars in 87 are better,i don't know from where u made that up.

i have seen cars made in 87 without a single visible rust,compared to todays cars from the same manufactures which starts to rust within 4 years,in the same house.so again quality does take a hit

when you say quality takes a hit..doesn't it mean the older ones were better?:lol:

in my village my great grandparents house was built in 1930s its steel gates which were installed a few years later were painted with red oxide the day it was installed,never again was it painted,no signs of rust even today,it looks old but no rust.where as my newer parents house whose gates were rebuilt some 10years ago located next to my great grandparents house,with all kinds of coating including spray painted with car paint started to rust within 5 years.

you cannot compare the local grillmaker and a modern car which uses good quality steel. If you see older amby's most of them will have rust. But if you check a older alto or santro you will not find any rust.. and mind you alto and santro are cheaper than an amby.

and just to clarify.....trivandrum is very much on the coast....shankhumukham beach and all that

Proper Trivandrum city as such is quite far away from the beach. And Trivandrum doesn't have as much humidity as Chennai..may be got to do with difference in wind directions..one is in the east coast and other in the west. and my ancestral house is in a place which is very near to Trivandrum. Nothing, even 30 year old bath fittings or iron grills have rusted.

 

[hemantwaghe]

Will you buy a car or even a refrigerator which is not a fully developed one?

On what basis you say that Car and engine is fully developed ? Till now the burning is inefficient with pollution -there are no practical Solar or Electrical cars and nuclear powered cars in science fiction was never made into prototype!!hyeah:hyeah:hyeah:
Again in past years we got more fuel efficient engines , BHP/Litere gone drastically up,safety features like Seat Belts,Air Bags,ABS are introduced and least some alternate fuels like CNG/LPG was introduced
SO AUTOMOBILE TECHNOLOGY IS ALWAYS WORK IN PROGRESS -AND FOR LAST 100+ YEARS PEOPLE ARE BUYING CARS!!! IF YOUR HYPOTHESIS OF PERFECT TECHNOLOGY IS RIGHT THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH BUYING PUBLIC!!hyeah:hyeah:
Like I was thinking that in 2020 I can buy 0 Emmission SUV which can give 2 Rs a KM output and auto foldabe while parking @ Rs 500000 - a small amount then - I bought my vehicle 3 years back. As per your guidence I should have waited but I am from general public bought it!hyeah::yahoo:

If we stop this mad rush to buy LCDs defnitely prices will come down to realistic levels. and this talk about companies spending billions of dollars in LCD R&D is not true.. even ISRO doesn't spend so much to develop those complicated rockets!!!

1) So you have acess to ISRO's budget fies ???-good ,also if they are publishing ,then to their balnce sheet too??
2) In India R& D quality is pathetic to best and accept that...and do not underestimate corporate research by MNC . Do you know P&G used sueer expensive and super powerful supercomputers to reasech potato chips?

Technology News: Computing: The Secret Lives of Supercomputers, Part 1

Even a consumer goods company like P&G [Proctor & Gamble] uses high performance computing extensively."

Proctor & Gamble used its supercomputer to solve a pesky manufacturing problem with Pringles chips. The snack maker had an issue with the design of the popular potato chip -- its design caused it to fly off the line during manufacturing, Corrado said.

"They weren't aerodynamic enough," he explained. "P&G used a supercomputer to do an aerodynamic simulation and now produces Pringles that are aerodynamically sound and do not fly off of the assembly line."

Supercomputers are also used to examine diaper material so diapers can be made more absorbent and environmentally friendly.

...............

 

[nirrej]

On what basis you say that Car and engine is fully developed ?

I'm not saying car technolgy is Perfect. But it covers what is essential.
It can perform its duty as good as any other instrument or applliance for passenger travel which is similar or less priced.
Wheras an LCD cannot perform its duty of reproducing SD telecast as good as its lower priced sibling the CRT Tv.

Here is what Bill gates got back from GM when he made a mock of the car industry.
" IF the car industry were to follow the same route as Microsoft, we would all be driving cars that cost $25, that give 1000 miles/gal and crash at least twice a year killing everyone inside. You would have no idea what happened." :lol::yahoo:

So you have acess to ISRO's budget fies

ISRO's entire budget for FY09 is just 1 billion dollars, and this is for rocket science. This is public knowlegde and can be obtained from ISRO website or even wikipedia.
Samsung's R&D budget for FY08 was 5 billion dollars and this covers their entire range of semiconductors to other appliances.And LCD is one among these 100s of products

 

[psychotropic]

nirrej, it really sounds like you're arguing for the sake of arguing......how is it that you're saying an LCD or plasma can't put an SD picture as well as a CRT? The problems with viewing say a tata sky on a plasma is that the inherent defects of the picture (such as compression) are demonstrated......that is like saying a hi fi system is "not as good as" a crappy Sony music system when it comes to reproducing MP3. Please demonstrate to us how your claim is any different from this?

Whereas when it's DVD....(which is also SD), can you really start to claim that it looks better on a CRT?? LCDs or plasmas scale up the picture and I can personally state that on my 42" plasma a DVD looks incomparably superior to how it looks on my in-laws 29" CRT (which is the biggest size available in India). So it's misleading to say that LCDs or plasmas are not "fully developed".

LCD and plasma are evolving technologies as much or as little as automobile technology. If you can set out some factual points to support your contentions, that would be very welcome.

Now to prevent you from continuing to go around in circles as you have been doing, and to help everyone understand your points, if any, I would be very grateful if you could tell us

a) how is your claim that LCD/plasmas are worse than CRTs at displaying SD content (such as tata sky) different from a statement that an audiophile hi fi system is worse than a sony system for playing MP3s?

b) do you really claim that a DVD looks better on a 29" CRT than a 42" plasma? or a 32" LCD?

c) tell us how LCDs and plasma are 'evolving' technologies, as opposed to automotive technology

c) How is ISRO's budget, or Samsung's budget in any way relevant? So what if their budget includes other products? Why do they have to justify their pricing to you?? If you don't like the prices, don't buy them.....be happy with your CRT!

Thanks in advance.

I'm not saying car technolgy is fully devloped. But it covers what is essential.
It can perform its duty as good as any other instrument or applliance for passenger travel which is similar or less priced.
Wheras an LCD cannot perform its duty of reproducing SD telecast as good as its lower priced sibling the CRT Tv.

Here is what Bill gates got back from GM when he made a mock of the car industry.
" IF the car industry were to follow the same route as Microsoft, we would all be driving cars that cost $25, that give 1000 miles/gal and crash at least twice a year killing everyone inside. You would have no idea what happened." :lol::yahoo:



ISRO's entire budget for FY09 is just 1 billion dollars, and this is for rocket science. This is public knowlegde and can be obtained from ISRO website or even wikipedia.
Samsung's R&D budget for FY08 was 5 billion dollars and this covers their entire range of semiconductors to other appliances.And LCD is one among these 100s of products

 

[nirrej]

nirrej, it really sounds like you're arguing for the sake of arguing......how is it that you're saying an LCD or plasma can't put an SD picture as well as a CRT?

I'm not arguing becoz i don't have any work to do..i've been saying this in all my previous posts in other threads too..
All professionals know that no LCD can reproduce SD signals as good as a CRT. Just compare a sports channel or News channel with a ticker at the bottom. And please dont complain signals are compressed. Thatz the way it is and we cant change that, unlike in music where you can buy uncompressed audio CDs

do you really claim that a DVD looks better on a 29" CRT than a 42" plasma? or a 32" LCD?

DVDs were never compared here.
The resolution of a DVD is higher than SD telecast.
It is 720 X 576

tell us how LCDs and plasma are 'evolving' technologies, as opposed to automotive technology

any technolgy that doesnt beat its predecessor is seen as evolving

How is ISRO's budget, or Samsung's budget in any way relevant?

Wanted to point out that even rockets have lesser R&D budgets, as people were claiming that LCD makers burn billions of dollars for R&D

 

[hemantwaghe]

Here is what Bill gates got back from GM when he made a mock of the car industry.
" IF the car industry were to follow the same route as Microsoft, we would all be driving cars that cost $25, that give 1000 miles/gal and crash at least twice a year killing everyone inside. You would have no idea what happened." :lol::yahoo:

Never tell OLD stale Jokes and that to partially

Here's If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics -

1. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash twice a day.

2. Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.

3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull over to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue. For some reason you would simply accept this.

4. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.

5. Only one person at a time could use the car unless you bought "car NT", but then you would have to buy more seats.

6. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive - but would only run on five percent of the roads.

7. The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single "General Protection Fault" warning light.

10. The airbag system would ask "are you sure?" before deploying.

11. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.

12. GM would require all car buyers to also purchase a deluxe set of Rand McNally road maps (now a GM subsidiary), even though they neither need nor want them. Attempting to delete this option would immediately cause the cars performance to diminish by 50% or more. Moreover, GM would become a target for investigation by the Justice Dept.

13. Every time GM introduced a new car, car buyers would have to learn to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.

14. You'd have to press the "Start" button to turn the engine off.

hyeah:hyeah:hyeah:

 

[square_wave]

Truth to be told, most people should just buy the current phased out model at a cheaper price.
Most people use Lcd 's to watch cable tv, up-scaled dvds etc.. Only a small percent of their usage is true-hd.
I have a friend who did almost 6 months of research before buying an Lcd tv. After six months he does not even know the contrast ratio of the TV. He does not care. He has a blu ray player and some half dozen discs which are gathering dust now. 90 percent of the time it is cable, rented dvds etc...

The market has to really mature - software - hd-cable etc...before we should put our hard earned money on a state of the art panel.

For HT enthusiasts with state of the art gear and endless supple of blu ray discs it is a diferent story.

 

[hemantwaghe]

Wanted to point out that even rockets have lesser R&D budgets, as people were claiming that LCD makers burn billions of dollars for R&D

Again for the sake of arguing what new "path breaking" technology devoloped by isro.With all due respect can you name any scientist who won Noble working in Indian labs in past 20 Years? Or any Software branded product like Windows or Adobe or Oracle from indian firms?

My older example I've told you P&G used supercomps to analyse Chips. Anyone can give rough costing of such project? And what about sunk cost in technologies like HD -DVD,oled.SACD ,UMD etc???

 

[psychotropic]

"all professionals" who?? professional what? I am a professional....a doctor is a professional.....who are you referring to? Again, instead of citing the higher authority of some dubious 'professionals' why don't you explain to us how the CRT produces SD signals better?

And let me clarify some factual things for you so that you don't make these same wrong arguments again. The resolution of DVDs is standard definition 480i for NTSC (or 576i for PAL).....which is the resolution at which DTH providers are supposed to be broadcasting....the only difference between the DTH images and DVD is compression, so comparing DVDs to DTH is EXACTLY like comparing audio CDs to MP3s.

Therefore the LCDs and plasmas are not at fault for the blocky picture you get on your tata sky, it is tata sky that is responsible. The high definition displays reveal all defects in the picture, and cannot be said to be flawed for that reason. If you have motion blur issues, you must be referring to older LCDs, the newer ones have addressed this almost completely, but why bother with LCDs.....go for plasma....cheaper and superior picture.....no motion blur whatsoever!

Again, before you pipe up about Tata Sky.....the fault is with the compression, not with the devices.....please tell me if you have any arguments to support your claim that it is the devices (the FPDs) at fault.

"any technology that doesn't beat its predecessor is seen as evolving" - This is predicated on your completely non-factual claim that FPD technologies are inferior to CRT. As I have demonstrated above, that is some completely misguided nonsense. Yes, CRTs have areas in which FPDs are still catching up, but if you compare both technologies as a whole, the CRTs (at least the ones available in India) are substantially inferior to the FPDs.

Also, to compare what HD displays can do with SD content is unfair. What about HD content, have you seen an HD image on an HD display? Can you still claim that the CRTs available in India can even hold a candle to them?

And about the R&D budgets, so you're saying you agree with those people right? that Samsung has a large R&D budget and that is factored into the pricing? Does your point contradict their claim in any way?

Anyways, in short, the FPDs available in India are far superior to the CRTs available here. Not only do they do a much better job with SD content, with HD content, it's not even in the same league. The fact that DTH operators show compressed images, can't be held against the FPDs, but if watching DTH is your sole purpose, then yes, you may be happy with a 29" CRT, but that's absolutely no ground to knock the FPDs!!!

Their pricing of course is another matter and dictated by market forces. One of the reasons they are able to sustain this pricing of course, is the clear fact (clear to everyone except your apocryphal 'professionals') that they are dramatically superior to the CRT displays available here.

I'm not arguing becoz i don't have any work to do..i've been saying this in all my previous posts in other threads too..
All professionals know that no LCD can reproduce SD signals as good as a CRT. Just compare a sports channel or News channel with a ticker at the bottom. And please dont complain signals are compressed. Thatz the way it is and we cant change that, unlike in music where you can buy uncompressed audio CDs



DVDs were never compared here.
The resolution of a DVD is higher than SD telecast.
It is 720 X 576



any technolgy that doesnt beat its predecessor is seen as evolving



Wanted to point out that even rockets have lesser R&D budgets, as people were claiming that LCD makers burn billions of dollars for R&D

 

[BLASTO]

I'm not arguing becoz i don't have any work to do..i've been saying this in all my previous posts in other threads too..
All professionals know that no LCD can reproduce SD signals as good as a CRT. Just compare a sports channel or News channel with a ticker at the bottom. And please dont complain signals are compressed. Thatz the way it is and we cant change that, unlike in music where you can buy uncompressed audio CDs

Plasmas produce SD signals as good as CRT or better for the size. Only when the signals are blown up, the imperfections also get blown up. They are not readily visible in smaller sizes and that that is why the signals are still produced inferior in india.

Go to any European or US cities and see the SD telecast. It is as good as DVD because there is a huge population owning flat panels there and the telecasters will lose market if they don't do something about the quality.

It is incorrect to brand the TV as bad when you don't have access to good enough signals. Good signals will be produced only when . Even now BIG TV with a Plasma gives you comparable or superior picture compared to CRTs.

With the case of LCD, It is a technology limitation! I for one think that response time and viewing angles cannot be improved so much so that it becomes as good as CRTs or plasmas. So how much ever it evolves, it is going to stay behind until it is replaced by another technology like oled.

DVDs were never compared here.
The resolution of a DVD is higher than SD telecast.
It is 720 X 576

SD telecast of DTHs is 576i? Bad quality has to do with the compression rather than resolution for the most part.

any technolgy that doesnt beat its predecessor is seen as evolving

Even anything that beats its predecessor is an evolving technology until there is further scope for improvement. Even CRT can be evolving if the companies did not abandon him.

Wanted to point out that even rockets have lesser R&D budgets, as people were claiming that LCD makers burn billions of dollars for R&D

Iam not sure about the dollars posted here but it is unfair not to include the R&D cost and calculate cost based on manufacturing cost. Employee salary/building/infrastructure, everything adds to cost of TVs.

 

[kaushik]

About the thread ...
the LCD and projector prices are unreal as compared to the the mfg cost , mfrs try to make margin balancing the loss in providing the TV etc as the LCD etc are evolving fast , they soon have to change the fabrication setup for new versions and next factor is the cream of the market,new product .Specially bigger LCDs sizes give better margin to them.

psychotropic,

LCDs give better picture than CRT if video resolution is proper . But i have seen in basic LCD tvs... settop boxes signals look ok (from a distance) but if you feed nornal good cable signal ,crts produce better picture... may be the video processors have to evolve..or may be marketing trick.

Marketing trick, because people buying LCDs easily buy STB..so that some ok picture comes.. common analog signals are bad in most areas too .

This way the STB companies booking maximum customers.
After landline digital STBs become popular , the satellite STBs will loose a major share of the market.

 

[nirrej]

"all professionals" who?? professional what? I am a professional....a doctor is a professional.....who are you referring to?

and i'm no arm chair expert who googles and gives suggestions.
I head a team of graphic professionals and currently my team is working on the post-production of a Prime-Time serial on the Sun Network.
I'm very much in the thick of the action and i know things first hand.

FYKI in India it is PAL and not NTSC.
DVDs are 576p and TV broadcast is 576i, plus it is compressed.
If you want to see the difference play a DVD from a good player like Oppo or even Pioneer. No Indian TV broadcast will even come closer.

And also most of the footage shown on edutainment channels were shot
decades back and have to be upconverted. This results in conversion loss.

The fact that DTH operators show compressed images, can't be held against the FPDs, but if watching DTH is your sole purpose, then yes, you may be happy with a 29" CRT

That is what i've been saying in all the posts.
You can't improve the quality of SD signals, but you can change your TV.
I too own an 32" LCD but i don't use it for SD viewing. It's in my room and used only for watching movies..Period

 

[nirrej]

Again for the sake of arguing what new "path breaking" technology devoloped by isro.With all due respect can you name any scientist who won Noble working in Indian labs in past 20 Years? Or any Software branded product like Windows or Adobe or Oracle from indian firms?

tell me one researcher from Samsung or P&G who got the nobel prize?:yahoo:
Not that they don't deserve. Nobel prize is given to only one individual in one particular field. It's more like the oscars. Just because Adoor Gopalakrishnan or Santosh Sivan never even got nominated, they can't be counted as medicore directors. And don't under-estimate Indian Scientists. Do you know that they developed their own Super computer decades back when the technology was denied to us by USA.

 

[psychotropic]

hey nirrej, no disrespect at all to your credentials.....but DVDs are 576i....not 576p...which is why one of the steps that your DVD player or TV does while 'scaling' the image is de-interlacing.

and i'm no arm chair expert who googles and gives suggestions.
I head a team of graphic professionals and currently my team is working on the post-production of a Prime-Time serial on the Sun Network.
I'm very much in the thick of the action and i know things first hand.

FYKI in India it is PAL and not NTSC.
DVDs are 576p and TV broadcast is 576i, plus it is compressed.
If you want to see the difference play a DVD from a good player like Oppo or even Pioneer. No Indian TV broadcast will even come closer.

And also most of the footage shown on edutainment channels were shot
decades back and have to be upconverted. This results in conversion loss.



That is what i've been saying in all the posts.
You can't improve the quality of SD signals, but you can change your TV.
I too own an 32" LCD but i don't use it for SD viewing. It's in my room and used only for watching movies..Period