Why are most speakers rear ported instead of front ported ?

[Decadent_Spectre]

Home audio speakers come in all sizes, so no question of size restriction. Price point, again, home audio speakers cost much more than their pro counterparts, so, not restricted by price either. Aesthetics is probably the only aspect that is given equal or more importance than sound quality.



My observation has been that pro speakers are all about delivering maximum wattage. Their horn tweeters are designed to project and emphasise higher frequencies over a larger area, and have a tendency to sound harsh, and are also directional. Horns do an excellent job in an open area setting.

Soft dome tweeters, popular in home audio, have better dispersion, and they sound smoother, ideal for close-proximity listening conditions of a typical home audio set up. Again, exceptions to use of horn loaded tweeters in home audio exist, e.g Klipsch. They deliver higher dynamics, but can get fatiguing in a close-proximity environment.

But, there are pro speakers with horn tweeters that sound sweet, as well, exceptions exist, but they do come at a higher price point. I do agree that a well made pro speaker can sound fantastic, and at a much lower price than its home audio counterpart. It's just that their ABS enclosures that make them less than ideal, from a home decor point of view.

Side note : Just noticed your avatar, Disenchantment fan?

 

[aeroash]

Maximum wattage is a very limited way to describe it, they are mostly about offering high output

I agree, Higher Output is the correct term.

I don't know why you claim they have better dispersion.

I do not claim; I start the sentence with "My observation has been...."

To sum up your ferocity, I get it, you are crazy about Horn Tweeters!

Pro speakers are too large for homes

Well, studio monitors such as Genelec, Adam Audio, Kali, Sonodyne are slowly finding their way into people's homes. How's this for size?

 

[aeroash]

Side note : Just noticed your avatar, Disenchantment fan?

What's there not to like about LUCI !! Who doesn't like LUCI, who....who

As any well mannered, deeply religious, convent educated individual, I wanted to say 'Cool your tits' in the previous post, and then you brought up Luci, so everythings's fine now.

 

[keith_correa]

Pro Speakers! To have them as a reference for proving placement of ports is downright hilarious! Same for fidelity! I'm talking here about the majority of outdoor crap that they call "pro speakers". I know a lot of so called "manufacturers" of these types of speakers, have seen them build them and my head would explode if I tried to list down stuff they do absolutely wrong. For one they know diddly squat about acoustic theory, for the other they build stuff to go loud. Period! You think they care about midrange leakage? Or chuffing of ports? In fact chuffing is welcomed - I'm serious! The guys equate it with bass. The drivers they use are picked with no thought behind it. They're usually drivers with high distortion. Why? Because it doesn't matter for the course. And horses for courses. I'm not very knowledgeable either but I know the basics and they mess up majorly even there. So, please, let us not talk about bullet tweeters and the "horns" and bass bins used in the pro stuff in India in a hi-fi forum.

 

[efernand1]

Isn't this the intent of all speakers, bass or not?

All speakers intend to deliver bass....some are specifically designed / made to provide mid bass and highs and hence the need for subwoofers.

A Satellite speaker will deliver only mids and highs....bass needs to be managed / delivered by the subwoofer!

Hope that clarifies.

 

[Vineethkumar01]

Well since the port discussion has now turned into a pro speaker discussion, thought I might rant a bit too.. just because it is fun..
At the start let me make it clear that I am talking about products/drivers from internationally respected pro audio brands (eg: Faital pro, BMS, and so many other more famous and less famous brands) and not the cheap stuff that is often sold as pro audio products in India. Let me also make it clear that my personal experience with handling pro audio drivers/speakers is limited compared to typical "hifi" drivers. But I have been exploring a bit about the pro audio world and its application in home hifi setups for some time now. In general, the pro audio world is ages ahead in driver technology implementation and their research, and DSP capabilities compared to typical home audio products. The current best home audio drivers are no match to their 'pro audio' counterparts whether it is high frequency drivers (dome tweeters vs compression drivers (CDs) on horns), mid woofers/woofers etc. This is with respect to engineering aspects like ON and OFF axes frequency responses and directivity, SPL levels that can be achieved, harmonic and intermodulation distortion, power handling and reliability influenced by thermal and mechanical limits and other things. In fact regarding the question as to why the best pro drivers are not used in our homes if it is all so good with pro audio drivers, the answer can only be that it is mostly because of the "shapely speaker package" visual aspects and partly due to a typical consumer's (our) lack of understanding about the best in the pro audio world.

From an engineering point of view, a fundamental aspect where pro audio drivers and "hifi" home audio drivers differ is in the focus on some engineering aspects. With typical home audio drivers, their intended use will be in a 2 to 3 way speaker in a shapely package that fits into typical box dimension ideas that people have about speakers. This also means that the lower frequency drivers often have to provide a sufficient low frequency extension with their limited sizes and low box volumes. This often translates to lower sensitivity, lower max power handling, and the trade offs related to all the non linearities and distortions handling due to the "no free lunch" idea . Typical good pro audio drivers are not constrained by the above limits of very low frequency handling and size. Therefore they can take bigger sizes which in addition to enabling better acoustic coupling with air ( and efficiency), also allows flexibilities in terms of them being able to take the best in the driver technologies available. Whether it is related to power handling or distortion handling. Regarding high frequency driver technology, many experts consider 'dome tweeters' as a fundamentally flawed technology compared to compression drivers w.r.t the kind of wavefronts they emit. How they translate to listening experience at home is another matter. CDs on horns are the ultimate in high frequency directivity control which is one of the most talked about aspects these days by almost everyone out there thanks to ASR and other forums.

Just think about the increasing popularity of dome tweeters on waveguides in speakers these days and about how good they measure and become benchmarks for home hifi speakers for people who are more concerned about the objective aspects. Where do you think the idea of waveguides and horn loading come from?
And the 'harshness' that people often associate with CDs on horns are due to reasons like the break up modes of the compression driver not handled properly, pattern flips in ON/OFF axis frequency responses etc. The best CDs on the best horns have moved beyond all that and it is just us who are stuck with these past ideas. Take a look at CDs like: https://faitalpro.com/en/products/HF_Drivers/product_details/index.php?id=502020185 and https://celestion.com/product/axi2050/ These when loaded on the right horns leave our home audio HF driver leagues behind in terms of frequency response, directivity, sensitivity and SPL limits. For the best horns for home use (in addition to good pro audio horns), try https://at-horns.eu/edge.html and Mabat's thread here: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/acoustic-horn-design-the-easy-way-ath4.338806/ (In fact this has been termed as the best horn thread available to mankind.. )
For shapely packages with pro audio drivers, look for ideas here: https://josephcrowe.com/

I am just skipping the DSP related aspects as there is no comparison between pro audio and home audio in that aspect. Active/passive directivity control down to the low frequencies and FIR filters are like piece of cake in pro audio world. It is just us who are still thinking that MiniDSP and EQ is a big thing.

In short, the best in audio technology is available in the pro audio world (and to make it more interesting, available at much lower costs). If we just equate typical pro audio products commonplace in India to the best in pro audio world, it is just us who are at a loss.

 

[efernand1]

Pro Speakers! To have them as a reference for proving placement of ports is downright hilarious! Same for fidelity! I'm talking here about the majority of outdoor crap that they call "pro speakers". I know a lot of so called "manufacturers" of these types of speakers, have seen them build them and my head would explode if I tried to list down stuff they do absolutely wrong. For one they know diddly squat about acoustic theory, for the other they build stuff to go loud. Period! You think they care about midrange leakage? Or chuffing of ports? In fact chuffing is welcomed - I'm serious! The guys equate it with bass. The drivers they use are picked with no thought behind it. They're usually drivers with high distortion. Why? Because it doesn't matter for the course. And horses for courses. I'm not very knowledgeable either but I know the basics and they mess up majorly even there. So, please, let us not talk about bullet tweeters and the "horns" and bass bins used in the pro stuff in India in a hi-fi forum.

We all have the internet today and can find many links and videos on speaker designs, how to make etc etc. and what not!

In the old days (20 years +) it was all on how good are your hearing skills and experience you have with the gear then and the gear now. I may not be technically certified but I have made my own amplifiers and speakers doing a lot of mix and match with different brands and stuff since college days and end of the day as long as it works well for you...why not....I am sure it was good as many around the area appreciated what I had and have traded up over the years selling those off to happy users. Sound Quality matters first to me.

This is an open forum and everyone's input is counted. I didn't see a banner or rule anywhere which stated posts are exclusive and needs a special permission to be responded to. The only reason I am responding here is because I was the one who spoke about bins, bullet tweeters or horns. I have been using a lot of stuff at home and even professionally since my school days ....so let's avoid trying to prove who is better than the other. Everyone is entitled to a view and can post based on his experience or professional certification.

If someone feels this is offensive, go ahead and report it and we can take the matter further as required as I have past experience where finally the so called Wannabe Experienced person who seemed to be throwing his weight around and Witch Hunting got BANNED!

 

[keith_correa]

If someone feels this is offensive, go ahead and report it and we can take the matter further as required

I don't think anyone finds it offensive. Why should it be offensive to anyone? Hilarious, yes! Offensive, no!

as I have past experience

Good for you!

This is an open forum and everyone's input is counted.

Yes

I didn't see a banner or rule anywhere which stated posts are exclusive and needs a special permission to be responded to.

You didnt see it because there isn't any.

where finally the so called Wannabe Experienced person who seemed to be throwing his weight around and Witch Hunting got BANNED!

Everything is not as it seems.
Wow! "BANNED"! And in capital letters too!!? I'm scared! And am quaking in my boots. Not!
And, please stop playing the victim card. This is not the first time you've done it and now it's starting to get very boring.

so let's avoid trying to prove who is better than the other.

Yes, let's avoid that.

Everyone is entitled to a view and can post based on his experience or professional certification.

Yes.

 

[efernand1]

I don't think anyone finds it offensive. Why should it be offensive to anyone? Hilarious, yes! Offensive, no!

Good for you!

Yes

You didnt see it because there isn't any.

Everything is not as it seems.
Wow! "BANNED"! And in capital letters too!!? I'm scared! And am quaking in my boots. Not!
And, please stop playing the victim card. This is not the first time you've done it and now it's starting to get very boring.

Yes, let's avoid that.

Yes.

As mentioned earlier you seem to be Witch Hunting as you follow my posts or even others to know so much. Possibly you may be more experienced than me, good for you, everyone is a King in their own spirit.

If you are bored, move on, others will read and make sense of what's posted. This website belongs to someone else and let him decide accordingly. Everyone is knowledgeable and would suggest to all to share their opinions in the right spirit and avoid trying to be the Mr Know it All and put others down. Keep posts / opinions generalized, we are all here to guide and help each other, that's what this forum is all about isn't it?

 

[keith_correa]

As mentioned earlier you seem to be Witch Hunting as you follow my posts or even others to know so much. Possibly you may be more experienced than me, good for you, everyone is a King in their own spirit.

I'm neither following you nor anyone else. Please, please don't be under that delusion. And if I followed you to know "so much", then i know where that would lead me. Probably, nowhere! I'm neither more experienced than you nor do I claim to be. All I did was post about what I felt I know based on knowledge that I possess currently. And i don't claim that the knowledge that I have is correct - it's in good spirit. What I certainly don't do is claim that people are witch hunting me and play the victim card. You may feel you're a "King" and you're entitled to that opinion. I'm not one!

If you are bored, move on, others will read and make sense of what's posted.

No, I will certainly not move on when it comes to debunking stuff. I said I'm bored of you playing the victim and have not said I'm bored of posting or of this thread. Especially when I think there is something of value to be contributed or something to be debunked. Please do not make this into something that it is not and go off in a tangent.

This website belongs to someone else and let him decide accordingly.

Decide what? Where is all this even coming from?

Everyone is knowledgeable and would suggest to all to share their opinions in the right spirit and avoid trying to be the Mr Know it All and put others down.

Can you please point out where I tried to put you down in any of my posts here? And please pipe down with the "Mr. know it all" stuff. You are doing exactly what you mistakenly claim that I'm doing.

Keep posts / opinions generalized, we are all here to guide and help each other, that's what this forum is all about isn't it?

Yes, I agree in general but not with the keep opinions generalised part. A specific question or point needs a specific answer else it does not have any value.

Enough said. Let's leave this behind us and let's move on. I certainly will.

 

[Vineethkumar01]

Since I myself brought things like directivity control in this thread, couldn't help sharing this one. Request Mods to please remove/move this post if this seems to get the focus away from the topic of discussion.

We hear people using terms like directivity left, right and center these days, just looking at graphs. How do we audibly identify it. Here are examples with how directivity is controlled with CD on horns (By the way these speakers use good faital pro drivers which are also reasonably priced in India.):

In both videos notice how the sound in the higher frequencies quietens down as we move away, off axis of the horn to the left or right. and how the loudness comes back when we move towards on axis. That is directivity control in action. Depending on horn profile and the CD attached to it, the control varies to different range of frequencies. (What is the advantage? well we dont illuminate the side walls with radiation much so less smearing of the intended sound output)

For comparison, here is dipole mid radiation pattern in action:

For more comparison, here is cardiod mid radiation in action:

Hope it helps Notice horns for the highs and pro audio drivers everywhere..

 

[sunder]

The quality of the low frequency will be enhanced in the front ported speaker system, when it is delicately combined with the breath air from the port. Vintage 3 way , 4 way speaker boxes gave exemplary sound quality which usually came with the Japanese combo systems & rack systems. Those items were loved by everyone who have different tastes in listening music in all genre of music.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

I agree, Higher Output is the correct term.


I do not claim; I start the sentence with "My observation has been...."

To sum up your ferocity, I get it, you are crazy about Horn Tweeters!


Well, studio monitors such as Genelec, Adam Audio, Kali, Sonodyne are slowly finding their way into people's homes. How's this for size?

View attachment 67727

What's there not to like about LUCI !! Who doesn't like LUCI, who....who

As any well mannered, deeply religious, convent educated individual, I wanted to say 'Cool your tits' in the previous post, and then you brought up Luci, so everythings's fine now.

No I wouldn't say I like "Horn Tweeters" rather pro speakers.

I wouldn't exactly term studio monitors as the posterchild for pro speakers. Technically yes they are professional speakers used in a professional capacity but I wasn't referring to these. I was referring to normal pro speakers used for high output in the portable,installation,touring and cinema markets. To be sure there are smaller speakers in pro audio but most are not small unless you look at the specific commercial installation segment which have small speakers for use in offices/businesses rather than out and out high output pro use. Often used in ceiling these would make for good atmos speakers I think. There are studio monitors that are relatively large as well. In my opinion studio monitors sound poor for music listening and are best left to their duties as a monitor for which they are intended.

I wouldn't have expected someone who is a "well mannered, deeply religious, convent educated individual" to like the character of Luci or even watch Disenchantment. Nor would I expect them to use terms such as "Cool your tits".

Pro Speakers! To have them as a reference for proving placement of ports is downright hilarious! Same for fidelity! I'm talking here about the majority of outdoor crap that they call "pro speakers". I know a lot of so called "manufacturers" of these types of speakers, have seen them build them and my head would explode if I tried to list down stuff they do absolutely wrong. For one they know diddly squat about acoustic theory, for the other they build stuff to go loud. Period! You think they care about midrange leakage? Or chuffing of ports? In fact chuffing is welcomed - I'm serious! The guys equate it with bass. The drivers they use are picked with no thought behind it. They're usually drivers with high distortion. Why? Because it doesn't matter for the course. And horses for courses. I'm not very knowledgeable either but I know the basics and they mess up majorly even there. So, please, let us not talk about bullet tweeters and the "horns" and bass bins used in the pro stuff in India in a hi-fi forum.

Hi keith, it would seem your experience is perhaps based on the local "soundwalla" or more accurately locally made pro speakers which fit the bill you describe. Their crossover work is poor, driver quality is poor and no though is given to design. Of course these local Indian "soundwalla" DIY speakers can hardly be called pro audio other being designed to go loud for the cheapest price possible. Many of them use very low quality locally made drivers as well, they often don't even bother with something like P Audio (which isn't good to begin with). As a side note chuffing is a concern with high air velocity at the ports, pro speakers tend to have larger ports than home speakers and are often tuned much higher, they also use drivers with typically lower xmax/xmech and said drivers rarely operate at maximum mechanical travel so I don't believe chuffing is a problem. At least I haven't heard of it being a problem in a pro speaker. I encourage you to listen to proper pro speakers that are typical yet have some degree of quality to showcase what a moderately priced pro speaker can do. QSC and EV are good places to start. Please do keep an open mind. All the best .

 

[aeroash]

@mods, please consider moving posts from #37 onwards to a new thread 'Pro Audio vs Home Audio'.

 

[aeroash]

Since I myself brought things like directivity control in this thread, couldn't help sharing this one. Request Mods to please remove/move this post if this seems to get the focus away from the topic of discussion.

We hear people using terms like directivity left, right and center these days, just looking at graphs. How do we audibly identify it. Here are examples with how directivity is controlled with CD on horns (By the way these speakers use good faital pro drivers which are also reasonably priced in India.):

In both videos notice how the sound in the higher frequencies quietens down as we move away, off axis of the horn to the left or right. and how the loudness comes back when we move towards on axis. That is directivity control in action. Depending on horn profile and the CD attached to it, the control varies to different range of frequencies. (What is the advantage? well we dont illuminate the side walls with radiation much so less smearing of the intended sound output)

For comparison, here is dipole mid radiation pattern in action:

For more comparison, here is cardiod mid radiation in action:

Hope it helps Notice horns for the highs and pro audio drivers everywhere..

This has elevated my interest. I can't wait to hear a pro audio setup in a home setting. I've only heard pro speakers in an open air environment.

@Vineethkumar01 could you please direct me to a pro audio setup in either Bangalore or Delhi, would love to hear firsthand what this magic is all about.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

This has elevated my interest. I can't wait to hear a pro audio setup in a home setting. I've only heard pro speakers in an open air environment.

@Vineethkumar01 could you please direct me to a pro audio setup in either Bangalore or Delhi, would love to hear firsthand what this magic is all about.

You might find this difficult as most users in India do not use pro speakers at home. I assume you wanted to listen to pro speakers in a home setup as you have heard them in an outdoor setup.

 

[keith_correa]

Hi keith, it would seem your experience is perhaps based on the local "soundwalla" or more accurately locally made pro speakers which fit the bill you describe. Their crossover work is poor, driver quality is poor and no though is given to design. Of course these local Indian "soundwalla" DIY speakers can hardly be called pro audio other being designed to go loud for the cheapest price possible. Many of them use very low quality locally made drivers as well, they often don't even bother with something like P Audio (which isn't good to begin with). As a side note chuffing is a concern with high air velocity at the ports, pro speakers tend to have larger ports than home speakers and are often tuned much higher, they also use drivers with typically lower xmax/xmech and said drivers rarely operate at maximum mechanical travel so I don't believe chuffing is a problem. At least I haven't heard of it being a problem in a pro speaker. I encourage you to listen to proper pro speakers that are typical yet have some degree of quality to showcase what a moderately priced pro speaker can do. QSC and EV are good places to start. Please do keep an open mind. All the best .

You're right and I know! That's why I mentioned "pro stuff in India" in my rant. There are tons of local guys here in Mumbai who throw together a cabinet, drivers, stick a pipe in it and call it a bass reflex box. They haven't grown [wrt knowledge] one bit in all these years! If they are "sophisticated" they cover it with felt like lipstick on a pig. They have many big names as their clients too.
I know that there are lot's of excellent pro drivers mainly coming out of Europe. Sadly these locals don't use them at all. I've seen very good designs [sonically] from very few - almost all that I've seen use sealed boxes!

 

[aeroash]

Google scraped my search history and promptly added this to my Youtube recommendations feed.
I know these are not pro speakers, but horns galore.!

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

You're right and I know! That's why I mentioned "pro stuff in India" in my rant. There are tons of local guys here in Mumbai who throw together a cabinet, drivers, stick a pipe in it and call it a bass reflex box. They haven't grown [wrt knowledge] one bit in all these years! If they are "sophisticated" they cover it with felt like lipstick on a pig. They have many big names as their clients too.
I know that there are lot's of excellent pro drivers mainly coming out of Europe. Sadly these locals don't use them at all. I've seen very good designs [sonically] from very few - almost all that I've seen use sealed boxes!

Sealed boxes? In pro audio? In mid range perhaps but usually not for woofers. While pro woofers can be used sealed they usually aren't in actual pro speakers. Can you link to these sealed pro speakers? Assuming you meant woofers here.

Edit : I am talking about regular speakers here of course, not monitors.

 

[Vineethkumar01]

This has elevated my interest. I can't wait to hear a pro audio setup in a home setting. I've only heard pro speakers in an open air environment.

@Vineethkumar01 could you please direct me to a pro audio setup in either Bangalore or Delhi, would love to hear firsthand what this magic is all about.

Unfortunately, I don't know of anyone except @Decadent_Spectre, who uses a well tuned (to his tastes) pro audio-based speaker set up at home. I too am looking for some one nearby who has a good pro audio driver-based set up to experience it live. But I haven't found any one yet.
My interest in the pro audio driver-based setups was piqued by many experts on diyaudio forum moving towards such systems from regular hifi driver-based setups. Hence I started learning more about them.
It is also hard to get reasonably good quality drivers in small numbers in India.
Recently I had asked a Faital pro distributer in india about availability of some drivers and most of the good ones I wanted are not available at the moment.

However when an opportunity presented itself, I grabbed a pair of 15inch Faital pro 15PR400 drivers shown in pic 1 (the same drivers used in the calpamos speaker build by tony gee in one of the above videos) for a future DIY build.
My current thought is to pair the above driver with a 1inch or 1.4 inch compression driver loaded on a CE360 or CE460 waveguide/horn by Mabat (after asking him which one suits this woofer better) in a free standing configuration like shown in attached pic 2 (pic copied from a study (here: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/2-way-waveguide-speaker-build-abec-modelling.357792/) about this which was done by FM fluid on diyaudio forum). This will be a DSP crossover based 2-way active system.

So maybe in time, I will have at least a small experimental pro audio based set up at home.