4 Speakers

[Asit]

Thank God! I completely lost any confidence in my evaluations when I heard the previous comments by Dr.Bass on the Theil CS2.4. I decided to keep quiet because my understanding and experience is really nothing compared to people like him. But to tell you guys very frankly I started doubting myself and my judgement. Thank you Dr. Bass very much for the clarification.

In the other thread on power amps, following Manav and a few others, I suggested SOM to look for speaker upgrade first, and I mentioned a few speakers from ProAc, Theil and PMC because I simply liked some of these speakers when I heard them. I also like Contours and the the ATCs I heard, but sometimes they are harder to drive. Perhaps the ProAcs may sound slightly bright with his Brystons according to some reports. But after the previous post of Dr. Bass, I was repenting my suggestion in that thread, and was really thinking along the lines of not making any suggestions to anybody anymore. Now I feel a bit relieved.

Regards.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Asit, you are scaring me. I know my judgement about CS2.4 was way off since they are not the speaker I ever heard, but you should not have kept quiet if you felt you heard things otherwise. My experience is hardly anything compared to many other audiophiles I know so I can always go wrong is assessing a component. I apologize again for all this confusion.

I have not heard the 2.4 but if they are anywhere like the 3.6 then I would guess they must be very nice. Has anyone compared 2.4 and 3.6 ?

 

[Dr.Bass]

Dr. Bass

You might have 'goofed up' a little bit with the Thiel's (not something one would usually expect from you!). But I am certain that for learning about the ATC SCM 40, you're the man! So could you oblige with a longish review. Complete with details of accompanying components, room size, placement issues, music played, changing perceptions about the speakers with the passage of time. Has familiarity bred boredom and an urge for change?

How did you decide to buy them in the first place? Why did you do an 'interest check' soon afterwards? Did you have niggling doubts about the speakers? Are you planning to upgrade in the future? What kind of upgrades would you be looking at? I apologise for the intensive grilling, but there are only a few two channel afficionados on the forum ( may their tribe grow and become legions ) and you are one of them

Ajay, I will definitely write a bigger story on the ATC. Just give me couple of days. I strongly believe, one should not buy an ATC without knowing the big picture.

 

[Asit]

Asit, you are scaring me. I know my judgement about CS2.4 was way off since they are not the speaker I ever heard, but you should not have kept quiet if you felt you heard things otherwise. My experience is hardly anything compared to many other audiophiles I know so I can always go wrong is assessing a component. I apologize again for all this confusion.

Dr. Bass,
I immensely value your evaluations and always look forward to reading them. There is no doubt in my mind that you are miles ahead of me in terms of listening to many equipments and speakers. In addition, I am basically a musician and hence I have a handicap, my attention is quickly drawn to the music and I tend to overlook the nitty gritties of the equipments. I know we differed quite strongly on a CDP before, but that was more because of the context we were discussing that CDP,namely, we were discussing that within a very limited budget, and I still think that CDP in question is a decent one given the price. This aspect is important to me, because all my life I have had to make decisions with a smallish budget in hi-fi terms.

There is no need to apologize. Please keep up the good work with your very open views. Because of my profession as a physicist, we are almost trained to do that and express our views in an uninhibited manner. I appreciate that style very much and I am very much like that in my profession.

Ajay,
As I have said before, I do not have much to contribute here. Whenever I have the time, I read these threads to enrich myself. Good luck with your research on speakers.

Regards.

 

[heliumflight]

Ajay I definately like you to look at PMC. Till yesterday I had only read about TL technology but once I experienced it, it was something. If you like your much deep and low, I would highly recommend it.

--
helium
SB Classic> Beresford DAC 7510 MK4> Lyrita SET 2A3 + PMC TB2/ Vintage highly modified B&W DM4 > Lyrita ICs + Cables => MUSIC

 

[prem]

Hi Ajay124

Let me add another speaker in the mix. Its called Jazz Module. Priced at $4500. There is a more expensive model Dream Maker priced at $9000. Its from a relatively unknown company Audio Kinesis. I have interacted with the designer Duke in the past. I like the philosophy behind his designs. Duke knows his stuff and is constantly pushing the envelope. You can visit his site AudioKinesis - sound that moves you for more details

 

[deepakgang]

how about the single drive Rethym speakers we have...It would be nice if someone could comment on them..I wish to check them out when possible

 

[malvai]

I have not heard the 2.4 but if they are anywhere like the 3.6 then I would guess they must be very nice. Has anyone compared 2.4 and 3.6 ?

I have heard the 2.4 and 3.7. not side by side but in different set ups...

I have no idea about the 3.6.

I has the 2.4 for many months - driven by a 3BSST.

I was very impressed by what the 3.7 does at it price point. In fact it does many things right. And sounds as good as the Avalons at 2-3 times its price!

The 2.4, is just a tad bass shy in comparison to the 3.7. and a just a touch slower too in terms of the bass...

also, if you look at all the graphs and specs the 2.4 is actually tougher to drive. though in real world terms, my erstwhile 3 BSST drove them without breaking a sweat.

I think the Bryston / thiel or Bryston / PMC or the Bryston / Maggie combos can make many other expensive combos BLUSH.

of the three combo's mentioned, the best seems to be the Bryston/Thiel.

I say this in terms of both SQ and longevity.

If I look at purely SQ, especially keeping in mind Ajay's preference for Western classical, I'd say he will do very well to buy a Maggie 1.7 and close the chapter.

But then, we are a hot, humid tropical country where planar and electrostat panels die out faster than anywhere else.

hence form my POV, the Bryston / Theil 3.7 or even the 2.4 is the best bet.

And no. The 2.4 is not thin sounding or even bright sounding at all. It was a dynamic, fast and very wholesome sounding speaker with beautifully refined hi's.

And for the aesthetics, my wife really misses them! (she hates the way the 801's look!)

 

[prem]

Pl remember Ajay is getting an Esoteric. Its a very neutral cdp. In the wrong set up can sound very wrong.

 

[malvai]

It'll do just fine with the Esoteric Prem... The Thiel is a very revealing speaker. if ajay puts a bad sounding source, it'll sound bad. the Esoteric is a very detailed CDP. So the Theil will be a great pairing. IMHO.

 

[captrajesh]

If you are okay with buying without an audition, here is a speaker you could check out.

They sell direct.

Salksound HT3
HT3 - home

Merlin - the floorstanding model.

They make it to order but I believe they put speakers available for immediate delivery here once in a while.

 

[sarge_in]

They make it to order but I believe they put speakers available for immediate delivery here once in a while.

Yep, that's the Salks' only disadvantage. The lead time is between 45-60 days to build a custom pair. Unless you happen to find a pair on that board that strikes your fancy.

Also, as Jim Salk posted on that forum, there is a price increase coming July 1. Which models and how much unknown yet, but Soundscapes for sure.

 

[ajay124]

The man behind the machine

James Edward Thiel was born in Kentucky in 1947. He graduated in physics from the Kentucky University in 1968. In 1976, he founded Thiel Audio in Lexington, Kentucky, with Kathy Gormik as a business partner. Jim Thiel took care of the designing and engineering, while Kathy Gormik handled the sales.

"I wanted to have my own business and thought that loudspeakers were something that I would enjoy doing. I had been experimenting with loudspeakers for years, designing loudspeakers for people in rock'n'roll bands and things like that. I got tired of putting more and more effort into the design stage to get a speaker just right, only to make one, two, or three units. If I was going to put a lot of work in designing a product, selling thousands of the same unit would be more rewarding."-Jim Thiel in an interview with Stereophile.

The Thiel 01 was the first speaker released by the company in 1976. In 1978, Thiel Audio built their first 'coherent source' speaker, the Thiel 03. The design used sloping baffles to ensure that the sound from the various drivers reached the listeners ears at the same time.

The initial Thiel speakers used drivers outsourced from Vifa. As the company grew, Jim became more involved in the designing and manufacturing of the drivers and other components being used in his speakers. By the late nineties several components were being manufactured in house. For the CS6 the woofer, tweeter and mid range were all manufactured by Thiel Audio.

The Thiel 3.6 came out in the early 90's' and is generally considered to be one of the best speakers to have come out of the United States. It remained in production for close to 15 years and was finally replaced by the 3.7 in 2007.

The Thiel CS 2.4 with a new coaxial design, where the tweeter and mid range share the same voice coil, was released in 2003. The CS3.7 debuted in 2007. It was the last speaker that Jim Thiel built, before he passed away in 2009.

Thiel Founder, Jim Thiel shows new speakers, the CS3.7 and the SCS4 (CEDIA EXPO 2006)

 

[ajay124]

Yep, that's the Salks' only disadvantage. The lead time is between 45-60 days to build a custom pair. Unless you happen to find a pair on that board that strikes your fancy.

Also, as Jim Salk posted on that forum, there is a price increase coming July 1. Which models and how much unknown yet, but Soundscapes for sure.

sarge_in

Could you tell us more about the pricing and servicing policy of Salksounds. And about their popular models and the kind of source and amplification required to make them shine.

You are welcome to post information, links and pictures of other speakers in the mid- hi fidelity segment. Especially those which are priced in the 2000-5000 $ segment.

 

[sarge_in]

Well, the prices are all listed on the Salk website:

SalkSound home page

The only stuff not listed would be custom veneer - different prices for different veneers, that only Jim can provide you, or for other custom requests. Were you looking for anything else in particular? Also, you pay 50% deposit when you place the order, and the rest when the speakers are ready. He then ships the speakers out. I know they have shipped to several international customers, and handles all shipping / duties related stuff. Best to check with him nevertheless.

For servicing, see the FAQ on the website about warranty. I have never read a complaint about service from Jim.

Popular models:
1. SongTowers ~$2000
2. HT2-TL ~4200 -> I think this is the sweet-spot of their line-up.
3. HT3 ~$6000 -> their previous flagship model
4. SoundScapes ~$10K for the 10's -> current flagship model

Probably the best comparison you will find for ST:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=919069

Nuance is pretty knowledgable and helpful about several brands and how they compare to different Salk models.

Reviews:
Salk SongTower QWT Floorstanding Speaker Review — Reviews and News from Audioholics
Salk Sound Veracity HT2-TL Review — Reviews and News from Audioholics

For more info / discussion, try these:
Salk Signature Sound
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=939744

All 3 main people involved with the design (overall owner and builder - Jim Salk, crossover - Dennis Murphy, the TL cabinet - Paul Kittinger) post here regularly for advice etc.

Pictures of my (old) setup:
Audio bliss at last!

For source and amplification, I have seen people use all kinds of brands and models, ranging from cheap AVRs to Parasound, Bryston, Wyred4Sound, Anthem, McIntosh, Krell etc. The ST and HT2-TL are much easier to drive, even with an AVR. But they will of course shine with more power - something like 250watts will be more than sufficient. I have read people rave about AVA stuff, and even Jim used to demo his speakers in audio shows with AVA amps etc. Several people love their tube amps / pre-amps / DACs, though they are not as jazzy looking.

avahifi - avahifi

Many people use Parasound, esp their 2100 preamp as it has HT and sub passthrough for people using in dual HT/sound systems.

I drove the ST with an Onkyo TX-SR707 for a while with pretty good results. Then with a Parasound A52, which was obviously better but I suspect it made them a bit bright.

HT3 and SoundScape need much beefier amplification. Can't provide specifics as I have not read too much in detail about them as they were out of my budget.

Only caveat being that as the speakers are quite revealing and neutral, I will not use a brand that is known to be on the brighter side.

Also, all Salk models that I have read and also experienced a bit - they reveal any changes in upstream electronics quite clearly. So the speakers cease to be the weak point in the overall path.

Hope this helps!

 

[sarge_in]

And oh, my source is Sonos ZP90 -> Onkyo -> Parasound. Plan to get a pre-amp sometime in the future, and perhaps a DAC even later.

 

[captrajesh]

@sarge_in, have you heard 'Newform Research' speakers? They are made by a Canadian speaker company and I've heard rave reviews of their speakers which have ribbons that produce the sound spectrum of 1000Hz and above. This is their website

 

[sarge_in]

captrajesh - No, I haven't heard those, though I did come across their name a few times. So can't say how they compare to the Salks.

Btw, on ribbons, the RAAL ribbon tweeter that HT2-TL use (also available as custom request on ST - recommended!) is a very well-regarded one. I have read several posts that they have very minimal sibilance and goes down to about 1800Hz (from one of Dennis Murphy's post). And it seemed so too when I auditioned the HT2-TL briefly at an owner's place. No idea how that compares to the Newform ribbons you mention though.

One other brand I have read a fair bit about, but not heard, are from Earl Geddes:

Loudspeakers

Wonder if anyone here has heard any of these?!

 

[captrajesh]

One other brand I have read a fair bit about, but not heard, are from Earl Geddes:

Loudspeakers

Wonder if anyone here has heard any of these?!

Yes, I've read rave reviews of his speakers. I wrote to him sometime back if I could sample his products anywhere in India and he did write back stating that he sells his speakers direct without any dealers in between.

BTW, does Jim Salk sell his speakers in kit form with cabinet build plans? That would knock off quite a bit of shipping cost and customs.

@OP, hope you don't mind some OT.

 

[ajay124]

@OP, hope you don't mind some OT.

OP doesn't mind OT. You are welcome to fly as high, at any speed, and in any direction you like. As long as it interesting, informative, intelligent or ironical. And stays within the realms of civilized debate