4 Speakers

[Dr.Bass]

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Good choice of speakers. I have heard 4 out of the 5 speakers at different places. I have not heard the Sonus Faber Cremona but have heard the Guarneri Homage. As always I will not sugar coat my response, here you go:

1. Thiel CS2.4 : Bright and thin sounding speakers. I could not like anything about it.

2. Thiel CS3.6 : This is a nice speaker. Smooth, open, revealing and overall neutral I heard the 2.4 and 3.6 back to back in the same system so I could conclusively infer the overtly bright and thin presentation of 2.4

3. Maggie 1.7 : I have heard the 1.6 and it is a very nice speaker. The only major constraint is you need to place it around 4 feet from the back wall else it sounds too bright and fatiguing in the dynamic passages. Otherwise it is a very dynamic, fast, open and full sounding speakers. Another thing though, it has a "big" sound so the room has to be big. In anything less than 200 sqft it will be overwhelmingly imposing sonically.

4. ATC SCM40 : I own them. Obviously I like them . But, with ATC there are some excess baggages. You need to give them not just clean sounding electronics but also cables, power conditioning, isolation et al. It will expose any weakness through out the chain including your room acoustics. Are you ready to take the extra overhead ? Now, if you do not do any of these extra things you may still find it good but these extra little care would take things to a different level with ATC.

5. Sonus Faber Guarneri : Very smooth, full sounding speakers with great bass. But for my taste it sounded too soft and had a rolled off high frequency. It was a deliberately colored speaker which is great for certain kind of music.

 

[RAAGA]

Hi,



I recently heard the Sonus Faber Liuto .They are a must audtion speaker for any one looking for speakers in that budget.

As Arj has rightly said they have a certain magic,they make music.

Regards
Rajiv

Very true... happenned to listen to the Liuto floorstanders. Mesmirizing !

 

[sarge_in]

Wonder if you have heard about Salk Sound? They are an ID only company in US and sell direct, so able to cut out much of the dealer margins. They are very well regarded here in US on popular forums and known to compete with some of the very best speakers.

SalkSound home page

Owners hang out at this forum - Salk Signature Sound or at AVSForum as well.

The only disadvantage of course is it would be almost impossible to listen before purchase, and you would have to import them. But Jim ships the speakers to various countries so it may not be too bad.

Depending on the budget, you can go from ~$4200 HT2-TL, or HT3 or all the way to their flagship Soundscapes. Shipping and duties would be extra of course. It may not hurt to just call Jim Salk, the owner, and get some ideas. He is not at all a pushy kinda guy and may well provide you input even if u do not decide to buy from him.

 

[ajay124]

Dr. Bass

Thanks for your free and fearless appraisals. I don't really have a sweet tooth and would prefer more 'salt and vinegar' responses, rather than 'sugar coated' ones

1. Thiel CS2.4 : Bright and thin sounding speakers. I could not like anything about it.
2. Thiel CS3.6 : This is a nice speaker. Smooth, open, revealing and overall neutral I heard the 2.4 and 3.6 back to back in the same system so I could conclusively infer the overtly bright and thin presentation of 2.4

Based purely on comments from current/former/prospective owners of both speakers, it's seems that the 3.6 is a cut above the 2.4. While comments about both the speakers are by and large positive, what you have mentioned about the 2.4's having a bright edge, and the 3.6 being far more revealing, open and smooth, has been voiced by several users.

Does it have something to do with the Vifa drivers on the 3.6, and the switch to Thiel built coaxial metal diaphragm drivers on the 2.4 ? Also the 3.6 is far more 'weighty' 50+ kg each, as compared to 30+ kg each of the 2.4. Users seem to find the 2.4 faster and better on the highs and upper mids, but on the whole prefer the fuller, deeper, more imposing and dynamic sound of the 3.6. The deal clincher for me would be that a used 3.6 would be cheaper than a used 2.4.

It is easy to discern the 'truth' from the 'bs', and I am not going by 'paid' reviews where 90 % of the 'opinion' can be safely ignored and only the 10% of basic info (probably provided by the manufacturer) counts. Ditto for the comments. It is relatively easy to distinguish between the four categories of comments. Knowledgeable and based on actual experience, knowledgeable but based on limited or no experience. Seemingly knowledgeable but based on vested interest. And well meaning but based on nothing

 

[GeorgeO]

I listened recently( in the US) to Sonus Faber's Amati-only $20K a pair! Works of art!

 

[ajay124]

I listened recently( in the US) to Sonus Faber's Amati-only $20K a pair! Works of art!

George
You seem to have spent a big chunk of your US holiday, indulging in audiophilia! Did you get to do any sightseeing? I have made 6-7 trips to Europe, but never felt the urge to visit the US. Guess I prefer the 'old world' to the 'new world'

 

[Rajiv]

rajiv

What were the other components in the chain? What was the size of the room ? Did you play any music which required the speakers to work really hard? Can you post your impressions in greater detail?

Hi,

Ajay,I heard the Sonus Faber Liuto's at Decibel Audio at Madras.

The room is quite big at around 15X20 with high ceilings.The amps were Parasound Pre/Power and a Nad Cd player.I am not certain of the models.

I listened to listened to Bluegrass,Jazz,Folk,C&W. Acoustic Bluegrass music can really expose a speakers shortcomings.


The Liuto's are very smooth sounding speakers .The bass is quick and plucked string bass is reproduced very well. The highs are extended and smooth with no grain.Some may think that the highs are rolled of,but it is absence of grain that gives this impression. The midrange is where the magic of this speaker lies.Vocals are reproduced superbly.

The Liuto's may not be the most "neutral" speakers around but they have the ability to connect the listener to the music.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[doors666]

have you considered diy. very rewarding
you will spend the same amount of time auditioning as you will in making new speakers, at the fraction of the cost.
I personally would never buy another set of speakers.

 

[GeorgeO]

doors666

Amen to that! I've been a member of that club for the past decade.

 

[GeorgeO]

Ajay

Someone who was one of the founders of a well known Indian software company-since then bought out, invited me to his place in Connecticut last month. This guy is now a very HNI, and enjoys a life of leisure and pleasure. Hearing that I was an audiophile, he was very keen to show me his gear.We finally ended up drinking a lot of "chai pani + biskoot" and on my way out got a brief session with his speakers. It is definitely going to be a port of call on my next trip, though.

Well the trip also included some Puerto Rican rum in San Juan ,PR, and some Greek ouzo in Manhattan(very similar to local arrack, though flavoured with anise(whant we call soumf-I wouldnt call either of them audio-unless you call the buzz I got in my ears afterwards "audio related"!

 

[arj]

Dr. Bass

Thanks for your free and fearless appraisals. I don't really have a sweet tooth and would prefer more 'salt and vinegar' responses, rather than 'sugar coated' ones

1. Thiel CS2.4 : Bright and thin sounding speakers. I could not like anything about it.

I think the Theil 2.somethng is the only thiel speaker i have heard it.It was being run with a pair of vincent monoblocks and the owner was comparing them to some B&W 700 series floorstander (way back in 2003) i do not recollect the sound that much but the thiel was definitely the winner and i started not liking B&Ws from that pooint ..always carried the impression that they are bright /thin with too much bass and dont do vocals well and rather liked the thiel for evertthing except the power requirement.

While i would not like to generalise the above notion about thiel. Dr Bass has a good pair of ears so all i can assume is that the ancialliary equipment was not in synergy with the speaker (I can understand why dealers do that !)

 

[pdhanwada]

have you considered diy. very rewarding
you will spend the same amount of time auditioning as you will in making new speakers, at the fraction of the cost.
I personally would never buy another set of speakers.

My words out of your mouth.

THe DIY world is crazy. Yesterday I saw a web page which contained the info related to building electrostats too. You name it it is there on the net.

With WEB being available I guess it is far easier than probably 10 or 20 years ago. Getting intrested in that. But need to be patient. Take lot of time understanding speaker building issues. May be we need to start off with a low budget ones first and go after to make better ones.

More importantly, we will save money and get to learn a lot and also get lot of satisfaction.

Thanks
Pandu

 

[reignofchaos]

I had heard the CS2.4 at audio people a couple of years ago. The electronics were all Pathos and cables were all straightwire. I did not feel they were thin sounding at all with that combination.

Before this audition, I heard a bunch of crap from Klipsch and Monitor Audio with Musical Fidelity and Bryston electronics and after those horrible auditions, the Thiel + Pathos was a breath of fresh air. Yes the speakers are a wee bit to the forward side of neutral but they were not harsh or bright at all in that setup.

I guess its all about synergy so I'd definitely recommend you audition thoroughly before putting your money down. The price seems to have gone up significantly since then. Jalan was willing to offer me the demo pair of CS2.4s for 2.5 without any negotiation. I'm sure he'd have gone lower if I had pressed.

Happy speaker hunting!

 

[ajay124]

It has been my experience over the last one year, that jazz sounds good on speakers far more easily than rock or classical music. Jazz has a smoothness and groove, which is very easy to like, once you start 'bopping' and getting a feel of the revolution that Bird and Diz began in the mid 40's. And falling in love with the sound of Duke, Satchmo, Ella, Lady Day and the 'unforgettable' Cole, is not the hardest thing in the world. I would be wary of auditioning a speaker with only smooth sounding jazz. I have done it in the past, trying to judge a speaker by only it's ability to play jazz, but I think a multi genre approach is essential while auditioning.

Good rock music like Cream, Allman Brothers, Jimi Hendrix, Stevie Ray, Ten Years After, has a jagged edge which sounds harsh on some speakers, and dull and boring on others. I caught a glimpse of an affinity between Dynaudio and rock music on my Dynaudio Audience 122. Made me feel that the Focus and Contour series pared with a powerful amp may be the ticket to rock nirvana. Dynaudio sound was smooth neutral, responding well to bursts of power, and it seemed that the higher series of the Dyn's, paired with a big amp, would be able to punch like a Frazier or Cassius Clay.

Orchestral classical music needs it all. Detail, dynamics, tonality, power, the ability of a system to pick up the slightest, softest note, and the ability to handle the highs like a champion high jumper. Most speakers, and badly integrated systems would fail with Mahler or Shostakovich. One would have to be fairly familiar with the symphonies of Mahler and Shostakovich, to even begin being able to understand, where the speaker is succeeding or failing. Personally my technical knowledge of speakers and also classical music is zilch. I merely play it 'by the ear'. Something I have been doing all my life

 

[arj]

I would be vary of auditioning a speaker with only smooth sounding jazz. I have done it in the past, trying to judge a speaker by only it's ability to play jazz, but I think a multi genre approach is essential while auditioning.

Good rock music like Cream, Allman Brothers, Jimi Hendrix, Stevie Ray, Ten Years After, has a jagged edge which sounds harsh on some speakers, and dull and boring on others.

coulnt agree with you more on this !

Rock..even dire strats tell you if the speaker is a lazy one or not ! many a shops in singapore have frowned at my Dire straits/Floyd and eagles cds when i brought them for audition in the past. but they do tell a lot.

 

[ajay124]

arj

The music we carry along for an audition, influences the impressions we carry back of the speakers auditioned. There are so many variables when we audition speakers at a dealer....The size of the room, ambient noise, the quality of power being fed to the components, the quality of the source, amp and cables. One would assume that the dealer has got the synergy and placement right, but this may not always be the case. How do you filter out all the 'colors' and discover what the speaker is actually doing?

Does a brief audition with a dealers set up have any meaning? Only if the dealer has gone to the same lengths as an enthusiastic audiophile would, to set up the audition. By and large dealers and their sales people in India are neither audiophiles nor great lovers of music. They may be pleasant, helpful, patient and hospitable. At least the good ones. But very few of them would have the time or the inclination to tweak a set up the way an audiophile would. Therefore the proof of the pudding, in this case the abilities of the speakers, would be gradually revealed, only after we have paid for and bought them home. For a lot of stuff that I buy, I find that a thorough research on the net is enough. Once I arrive at a buying decision, I pay and get the stuff home. I am not saying that's a great way to buy a pair of speakers, but folks who do not have direct access to a dealer, may not have any other option. With proper research, I believe it is possible to make a good decision, at least when buying new. The guys living in metros where the dealers are based, may have the extraordinary privilege of a home audition. They are the lucky ones!

* deleted my previous post as it was OT!

 

[ajay124]

Higher models from PMCs, Theils and ATCs.
The best speaker you can afford from the sonus faber line.
Blumenhofers.
If you are okay with buying without an audition, here is a speaker you could check out.
They sell direct.
Salksound HT3
HT3 - home
Merlin - the floorstanding model.

squarewave

'Blumenhofer' is a word I associate with you, just as 'Esoteric' is a word I associate with Prem and 'ATC' with Dr.Bass. Because I first heard these names in their posts.

Can you post your impressions about the various Blumenhofer models, especially the one you own. Has anybody on the forum, or outside, bought speakers from Salksound. I checked out the link which you had posted, and they seem to be very well built.

 

[Dr.Bass]

My apologies guys, after reading some of the comments by Arj and ROC I had a doubt, I went back and googled out different Thiel speakers and I discovered that the speakers I had auditioned were CS1.6 and CS3.6 side by side. I have NOT heard the 2.4 as yet. The 1.6 sounded thin, bright and rather dry. Sorry for the goof up

 

[ajay124]

Dr. Bass

You might have 'goofed up' a little bit with the Thiel's (not something one would usually expect from you!). But I am certain that for learning about the ATC SCM 40, you're the man! So could you oblige with a longish review. Complete with details of accompanying components, room size, placement issues, music played, changing perceptions about the speakers with the passage of time. Has familiarity bred boredom and an urge for change?

How did you decide to buy them in the first place? Why did you do an 'interest check' soon afterwards? Did you have niggling doubts about the speakers? Are you planning to upgrade in the future? What kind of upgrades would you be looking at? I apologise for the intensive grilling, but there are only a few two channel afficionados on the forum ( may their tribe grow and become legions ) and you are one of them

 

[sarge_in]

squarewave

Has anybody on the forum, or outside, bought speakers from Salksound. I checked out the link which you had posted, and they seem to be very well built.

I bought the Salk SongTowers (with the OW2 dome tweeter) about 6 months back, and have been thoroughly enjoying them since (I am in US). They were EXTREMELY musical, balanced and revealing - I started listening to music much more than I ever did before I got them. Bass was pretty good for 5" drivers, but I sometimes saw myself wanting some more. The midrange is where it really shines - very flat and crystal clear voices. Their biggest plus was resolution and imaging - I have honestly not heard it quite like that in so many other speakers I have auditioned. The top range was very good for a dome tweeter, and for me struck a very nice balance between providing all the details without being bright. However, over time I became aware of a bit of sibilance, but honestly this could have been due to any number of other factors - the amp (Parasound A52) - I really suspect this one as the culprit, or my quite big untreated room with wood floors (I have been treating it since - still to see how it works out). So anyways, I sold them earlier this month and currently have the HT2-TL on order, that have the ribbon tweeter and are known to be very smooth, along with much better bass from 7" drivers. When I auditioned the HT2-TL at a local owner's place, it did not seem to have any sibilance at all and I was very impressed.

Of course, one big attraction of the Salk speakers is that you can customize it to your heart's content - veneer, color, caps, front/rear porting, even different drivers and tweeters if you want (all at a price, of course). One example - I am getting magnets installed on the REAR of my speakers to hold the magnetic grill when I am listening without the grills

For reference, I compared the SongTowers a bit to B&W CM9, Paradigm 100, Focal 836V, Focal 1037 with Be tweeter and there was just no comparison. I preferred the ST over all of these by a pretty comfortable margin. The closest ones were Focal 1037 and then the 836. The CM9 just plan SUCKED.

The HT3 and esp the Soundscapes are at a different level altogether, from what I have read and compare with the likes of best of Vandersteen, Wilson Audio and other pricey brands.

Like I mentioned earlier, calling Jim Salk may be worth a shot. He is a very upfront and honest guy and has been well known to even recommend cheaper speakers depending on individual requirements and situation.