4 Speakers

[sarge_in]

Yes, I've read rave reviews of his speakers. I wrote to him sometime back if I could sample his products anywhere in India and he did write back stating that he sells his speakers direct without any dealers in between.

BTW, does Jim Salk sell his speakers in kit form with cabinet build plans? That would knock off quite a bit of shipping cost and customs.

@OP, hope you don't mind some OT.

Yep, that's the advantage as well as disadvantage of ID brands - no dealers.

I don't remember reading about Salk kits in any of the posts. May be worth checking with him directly for anyone interested. But then again, you lose a big advantage that he offers - beautiful custom veneered cabinets!

 

[Dr.Bass]

Ribbon tweeters are not for everyone is what I hear generally. Some audiophiles whose ears I trust say that a ribbon tweeter lacks body in the highs so it is best used as an augmenter with a dome tweeter. I have heard a similar implementation in Dali Helicon and it was good. I am yet to hear a speaker where a ribbon tweeter does the full HF range (except maggie which is planar ribbon but it is a different case) so I cant exactly say how it sounds, but it was a caution for OP.

 

[ajay124]

Ribbon tweeters are not for everyone is what I hear generally. Some audiophiles whose ears I trust say that a ribbon tweeter lacks body in the highs so it is best used as an augmenter with a dome tweeter. I have heard a similar implementation in Dali Helicon and it was good. I am yet to hear a speaker where a ribbon tweeter does the full HF range (except maggie which is planar ribbon but it is a different case) so I cant exactly say how it sounds, but it was a caution for OP.

Dr. Bass

Have you auditioned the maggies? Especially the 1.6 or the 1.7's. I would be very interested in hearing your opinion about these speakers. Manav has heard them at Audiovision, Mumbai and he has was very impressed with them.
When an actual experience is not possible, one has to rely on instincts and opinions. Even if I auditioned all the four speakers with dealers, instinct would still play a big part, as I would still be 'guessing' how they would behave in my room with my components.

In my current set up, I feel that further damping is required, in order to control resonances and reverberations. The lower frequencies need to be controlled more efficiently. I am not a fan of heavy, pounding bass. Would prefer it to be a solid, but invisible presence, supporting the mids and highs. Held on a tight leash by the amp, and allowed to growl only when necessary. Would bass be less of a hurdle and more of a pleasure if I bought the Magneplanar 1.7's? Or the SF Cremona Auditor M's? Would the Esoteric SA10 be able to provide a far more cleaner, focused and detailed sound than the Arcam CD192? Would the Accuphase E450 be able to control and drive the speakers better than the Bryston BP6/SST 4?

After several months of confusion, the XLO power cords are firmly entrenched with the CD192, and the Volex with the BP6. No more doubts. They do exert a positive influence on the SQ. Every change is a compromise, but this compromise is finally 'music' to my ears. I had to tilt (up) and toe (in) the speakers a little bit, before these power cords started sounding 'right' to me. Dark arts! The 4B SST is still being powered by a generic cable, and this needs to be remedied. Ideally I would want identical power cords for all three units. All the IC's and speaker cables are Transparent Audio. But alas! from different series.

 

[Dr.Bass]

3. Maggie 1.7 : I have heard the 1.6 and it is a very nice speaker. The only major constraint is you need to place it around 4 feet from the back wall else it sounds too bright and fatiguing in the dynamic passages. Otherwise it is a very dynamic, fast, open and full sounding speakers. Another thing though, it has a "big" sound so the room has to be big. In anything less than 200 sqft it will be overwhelmingly imposing sonically.

If you have the space to provide as mentioned in my other post and the flexibility to treat the back wall a little, Maggies are superb speakers. They are great all rounders, have good bass (tight and authoritative) and they are very fast.

 

[sarge_in]

Ribbon tweeters are not for everyone is what I hear generally. Some audiophiles whose ears I trust say that a ribbon tweeter lacks body in the highs so it is best used as an augmenter with a dome tweeter. I have heard a similar implementation in Dali Helicon and it was good. I am yet to hear a speaker where a ribbon tweeter does the full HF range (except maggie which is planar ribbon but it is a different case) so I cant exactly say how it sounds, but it was a caution for OP.

That's interesting - I hadn't heard about that. I do know that ribbon tweeters are a bit more difficult to implement than domes, so may be specific to some products.

One thing that gets discussed often about ribbons is that their dispersion is not as good as domes. Horizontal is pretty close (but still lesser), but vertical is more limited. So if you do some listening while walking around etc, you may lose some of the HF. This also has the benefit of avoiding floor and ceiling reflections, so there are pros and cons. I have also seen recommendations of being careful of them if seating is more widely spread out, as their sweet spot tends to be smaller.

That said, all of Salks higher models come with the RAAL as standard, FWIW.

 

[ajay124]

If you have the space to provide as mentioned in my other post and the flexibility to treat the back wall a little, Maggies are superb speakers. They are great all rounders, have good bass (tight and authoritative) and they are very fast.

The space is there. My room is 14x25 feet. Current speakers are at a distance of 5 feet from the front wall and 3 feet from the side walls, with separation of 8 feet between them.

Front wall is made of wood and glass windows covered by moderately thick curtains. Half of the back wall has book/cd shelves. I open their glass panes when listening to music, to prevent the sound waves from directly hitting the glass. The other half is a solid wall. Treatment is not an option that I have ever considered or researched.

The maggies seem attractive as I already have a pretty decent box speaker. I don't want to part with the Vienna Acoustic's, therefore I feel a hybrid electrostat like Magneplanar 1.7, or a stand mount from SF/ATC may be an interesting second option.

 

[Asit]

Ajay,
I have not heard any of the current Maggies. But I practically lived with a pair of Magnepan speakers in 1987-88 during the final stages of my PhD days in the US. A dear friend of mine used to own them (He also had the Nakamichi Dragon). The friend was an engineer and obviously got a job (in Bell Labs) before I finished my PhD. He was also unmarried and bought a house in the suburbs, and a few of us used to practically live in that house.

I cannot remember the exact model number, probably some variation of the MGIII. They were about 6 feet tall, placed on the floor slightly inclined in his family room opening up to the backyard. As is usual in the US, the family room was quite large (something similar to what you have), but interestingly they were placed along the length of the room, rather than along the width of the room. If I remember correctly, they were placed at least about 10' apart, almost in the middle of the room. By then, I already have seen a few speaker placements right in the middle of the room, and hence it did not seem strange to me. But I remember he told me that the people who came to deliver the speakers tried many many positions for some time, and ultimately settled for that kind of placement.

The sound is still etched in my mind. Another maker that was making something similar but more expensive was Apogee.

Regards.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Asit is right in that the Maggies need some width to spread across the soundstage. Since the maggies themselves are about 2ft wide, in your case if you try to place them where you have currently placed your Vienna you are looking at a speaker to speaker distance of 5 feet (inner edge distance). If you move them apart by a feet each side then you have a decent distance of 7ft between the inner edges which is good but then your side walls will start speaking so you would require to put some kind of soft curtain on the side walls just adjacent to the speakers, are you open to that.

Coming over to room treatment, I have tried quite a lot of things at different locations in my room and I came to a conclusion that unless a room is really devilish one should not try any fancy treatment. A medium think carpet and curtains on the bare walls work the best not to change the sound much but still remove unwanted hardness, echo, edge from the sound. As it is commonly known, high frequency is easiest to tame followed by mids...as you go down in the frequency range it gets tougher to treat them. But then it is also important to remember that because highs are easy to absorb a little negligence in choosing a curtain can actually lead to drastically roll off (absorb) highs from the overall sound but then with some due diligence it is easy to treat a room simplistically and generally get rid of nuisance. Treating low frequency is beyond my current understanding of acoustic treatment.

I want to emphasize this, Vienna Acoustics is a relatively mild and smooth sounding speaker, the Maggies are very different that way. They will sound a lot more energetic, dynamic and a tad upfront compared to your current speaker. Unless you listen to it, you should be prepared for a recipe like that.

 

[sarge_in]

Coming over to room treatment, I have tried quite a lot of things at different locations in my room and I came to a conclusion that unless a room is really devilish one should not try any fancy treatment. A medium think carpet and curtains on the bare walls work the best not to change the sound much but still remove unwanted hardness, echo, edge from the sound. As it is commonly known, high frequency is easiest to tame followed by mids...as you go down in the frequency range it gets tougher to treat them. But then it is also important to remember that because highs are easy to absorb a little negligence in choosing a curtain can actually lead to drastically roll off (absorb) highs from the overall sound but then with some due diligence it is easy to treat a room simplistically and generally get rid of nuisance. Treating low frequency is beyond my current understanding of acoustic treatment.

Quite true! The usual recommendations of treating first reflections is quite useful though in case one of the sidewalls is at a different distance from the other. If not, reflections have been known to expand the apparent soundstage width, as long as they don't muddy up the sound too much. Treating first reflections is also very useful if you have too many hard surfaces reflecting sounds. Bass traps in the corners of rooms seems to be a universal recommendation to tame the LF. If you get serious about this, getting the equipment to measure the FR in your seating location should be the first step to identify problem areas and then treat accordingly.

 

[ajay124]

Dr.Bass

Since the maggies themselves are about 2ft wide, in your case if you try to place them where you have currently placed your Vienna you are looking at a speaker to speaker distance of 5 feet (inner edge distance). If you move them apart by a feet each side then you have a decent distance of 7ft between the inner edges which is good but then your side walls will start speaking...

I have already done those calculations and feel that if I place them in front of the 14 feet short wall, I would need to compromise. Either place them at a reasonable distance from the sidewall and compromise with the distance between them, or vice- versa. Based on the speakers I have auditioned at home or with dealers, I have never been happy with a separation of less than 7/8 feet for floor standers.

I would want a minimum of three feet distance from the sidewalls, a separation of 8 feet and a sweet spot which is 8-10 feet away. A conundrum, as these placements would not be possible if I wanted to fire the speakers down the 25 feet length of the room.


The other option would be to place them along the long wall, firing down the reduced 14 feet length. They would have sufficient distance from the side walls and between them. But I would have to re-think the entire room for that placement. If I placed them 3 feet from the front wall, and found a listening position, three feet away from the back wall, I would be sitting at a distance of 7-8 feet from the speakers. I have no idea what that would do to the SQ, and to the look of the room!

 

[ajay124]

Should I buy speaker a,b,c,d?

Most speaker threads tend to focus on brands, with little or no attention paid to the interaction between the speaker and room.

I may be wrong, but I feel that getting this interaction right is more important than auditioning a few brands, buying one, and hoping for the best. Most buyers tend to start with a preconceived notion and preference for a particular speaker. I did this last year. Twice! I began with a speaker and then built a system around it. The speaker sort of decided which amplifier and CD player I should buy. It also decided my final cash outlay, which turned out to be more than twice what I had originally budgeted.

In retrospect I believe that I should have first addressed the question of whether to buy a tower or a stand mount. And how each of them would interact with my room. I began with the assumption that my 400sq feet room was 'big' and I need a 'big' tower and a 'big' amp. I now tend to think of my room as mid sized rather than big. I have spent hundreds of hours trying to to tame the lower frequencies and to make my system sound less boxy. Perhaps a simpler and cheaper solution would have been to buy stand mounts rather than towers. Perhaps I did not require a 4B SST and a less beefy, more refined amp (Accuphase E450?) would have been a better option?

I would be willing to sacrifice a little bit of bass response, if I could gain more transparency, detail, smoothness and punch by doing so. But without a sub. Better to stick with a tower and let the designer integrate the bass response, than try to do it myself and make a mess of it. The smaller box of a stand mount, now seems to me, is a virtue rather than a 'sin'.

 

[arj]

ajay,
speakers show the most "personality" and its very important to get them right..of course taking into account the room and the budget. i have found tone and timbre to vary so much from speaker to speaker . while amplification /room does change many things there is something about the presentation (the soul ? ) that remains constant.
everything else is a function of the amp and the room (and cables)

unfortunately i have never been able to buy a speaker after only an audition..only after a study/research etc to understand what the speaker (and he designer) is all about..as the only way to hear it right is to hear it in your own room with your own amplification.

Once you get the speaker right it is a question of finding the right amp to marry it with..and yes the synergy can be chemistry or a damp squib irrespective of the pedigree of the amp (any subtle connects to marriage are intentional )
if you hear a Maggie, a single driver , horn etc i believe you will know exactly what you will like. especially since you have a very clear preference for the kind of music you listen to. and if you get what you like and want to do the best for it, you will need to find the best amp for it.

regarding Standmount vs floorstander..my personal opinion is it does not matter. Just go my the speaker that does you music well. there are floorstanders which dont do enough bass and standmounts, with the right amplification which do ! (while floorstanders are a bit less than a bookshelf as it is in the VFM factor. moment you start factoring in a good Stand..these difference become much smaller)
if you ask me the best possible speaker which might go with the bryston..i might also suggest the Harbeth monitor 40 although that is well over most budgets but one of the better speakers for orchestral works
this is Richard green (Of TAS's ) room
http://www.regonaudio.com/REG Listening Room.html . his articles on the home page are pretty interesting too. other than being a reviewer, he is a mathematician teaching at the UCLA and a Violin player.

 

[sidvee]

ajay,
unfortunately i have never been able to buy a speaker after only an audition..only after a study/research etc to understand what the speaker (and he designer) is all about..as the only way to hear it right is to hear it in your own room with your own amplification.

I concur with this statement wholeheartedly. The best - unfortunately not always practical here in India - is to audition speakers in ones own room. A close second best again IMO would be to audition the speakers in a room similar in construction and dimensions to ones own room/sitting position/speaker location and if possible even the type and arrangement of furniture and of-course the electronics. I believe that room acoustics/listening position play a huge role in determining the sound of a system more so than any other component in the chain - unless one is planning to use some form of equalization. This also leads me to the conclusion that - to be able to enjoy any speaker to its best potential (whether it is floor standing or book shelf or any other design) - a printed or net based speaker review, is only a starting point which has to ultimately culminate in the listener actually auditioning these in either of the aformentioned locations. That is the approach I used for my recent purchase of the Shl5's and I am quite satisfied with the outcome.
Just my 2 paisa
Cheers,
Sid

 

[ajay124]

arj, sidvee

I agree that thorough research is essential. I would rather upgrade on the basis of extensive research over a period of time, than on the basis of a couple of hurried auditions. My threads on power conditioning and cdp's helped me to hone in on the exact product I wanted. I feel that buying threads should not be stretched beyond a point. There comes a moment when you have to pull the trigger. Otherwise one can keep on going around in circles, ultimately making the wrong decision out of sheer frustration, confusion and desperation.

A speaker upgrade would have to wait until my new cdp has settled down and shown it's true potential. With the Arcam Cd 192 everything is very cosy and good. But I feel the Esoteric SA10 is going to be a game changer. Hopefully it will reveal how far the Bryston's and VA's can go. In the meantime I will be on the lookout for a pair of great stand mounted speakers. All suggestions would be welcomed!

 

[anm]

that's the reason I want to audition in ppl's home and not only at dealers. Room sizes, and lack of too much treatment in a real room is closest to auditioning at home.

 

[ajay124]

ATC speakers from Acoustic Engineers.

I would appreciate any information/insight about their passive and active speakers. International and Indian pricing and availability. New and used.
Especially for these models:

Entry Series
SCM 7
SCM 11
SCM 19
SCM 40
Tower Series
SCM20SL AT
SCM50SL AT
Classic Models
SCM20SL
SCM50

 

[Bluu]

These are available in Bangalore for sure (Palani). The SCM-11 is around 90K-1L (+/- 10K). You should ping Dr Bass since he owns one of these beauties! The SCM-30 or SCM-40, not sure.

I haven't heard them yet but I've heard that they are incredibly unforgiving speakers. However, get the entire chain right and you're in for a treat!

 

[prem]

Hi Ajay

If you are looking at ATC, consider ATC active.

 

[Bluu]

If you are looking at ATC, consider ATC active.

Prem, any particular reason for this?

 

[ajay124]

Hi Ajay

If you are looking at ATC, consider ATC active.

Prem

How are the active towers and stand mounts priced? Buying an expensive active would require saying goodbye to the Brystons and Vienna Acoustic's. And later if I wanted to go back to passives, I would have to again start hunting for amps and speakers. Would the ATC actives be worth all the effort involved?