mandeep
Active Member
Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?
Very well said sir.
Again all the words above have more worth, than ton's and ton's of Gold
Very well said sir.
Again all the words above have more worth, than ton's and ton's of Gold
A discussion on DACs
- Thread starter music4mhell
- Start date
regeHA
Well-Known Member
Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?
You've apparently not heard enough DACs, but then neither have I.
But from what I've heard, for under $1000 I'd only go with either Schiit, Arcam, or the Chinese like SMSL.
Not of the so called "audiophile" brands make even decent DACs at under $1000, actually none of them probably make DACs that cost less than $2000.
Also, the real difference in more expensive DACs is not SQ, its upsampling to DSD and sample rates beyond the humble redbook and its a lot of internal filters - giving each DAC its own sonic signature. That's wrong though... DACs and cables aren't supposed to change the sound signature... actually nothing in music is supposed to, but everything does.
Anyways to get back to the point, there aren't many $1000 DACs that will outperform say a $100 or $200 DAC from the likes of Schiit or SMSL, unless you are talking of the higher end models from these companies (i.e. Schiit and SMSL) and that will start the cycle of comparing the higher end models to $2000 and $5000 DACs.
As DACs go the differences in SQ are minute and very subtle. Its about picking up increased soundstage, darker blacks, lower noise floor, etc. and most folks don't have equipment that picks up on these improvements. You will not find a difference of heaven and earth in terms of SQ if you are not looking for other specifics in terms of DAC performance.
You've apparently not heard enough DACs, but then neither have I.
But from what I've heard, for under $1000 I'd only go with either Schiit, Arcam, or the Chinese like SMSL.
Not of the so called "audiophile" brands make even decent DACs at under $1000, actually none of them probably make DACs that cost less than $2000.
Also, the real difference in more expensive DACs is not SQ, its upsampling to DSD and sample rates beyond the humble redbook and its a lot of internal filters - giving each DAC its own sonic signature. That's wrong though... DACs and cables aren't supposed to change the sound signature... actually nothing in music is supposed to, but everything does.
Anyways to get back to the point, there aren't many $1000 DACs that will outperform say a $100 or $200 DAC from the likes of Schiit or SMSL, unless you are talking of the higher end models from these companies (i.e. Schiit and SMSL) and that will start the cycle of comparing the higher end models to $2000 and $5000 DACs.
As DACs go the differences in SQ are minute and very subtle. Its about picking up increased soundstage, darker blacks, lower noise floor, etc. and most folks don't have equipment that picks up on these improvements. You will not find a difference of heaven and earth in terms of SQ if you are not looking for other specifics in terms of DAC performance.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?
At Venkat,
Does this conclusion ( the perc values ) apply to the end user's experience as well ? The listener ?
OR
Is this just something you see as a measurement but does not know how it applies to the listener ?
--------
I am in complete agreement with your viewpoint about the amount of money one need to spend for assembling a system. If one is very musically inclined, even a blu-tooth speaker will do. But then as you get to understand the demographic in the hifi hobby, there are many permutations and combinations with regards to " music appreciation capabilities ", " love for the highest fidelity sound ", " budgets " etc... which one cannot ignore. One person's " musical sound " could be another's recipe for disaster.
If one puts a high priority sticker on " love for the highest fidelity sound ", you cannot automatically infer that he is incapable of making a sound judgement.
-------
I am sure, if one were to DIY, the highest end dacs can be made at a fraction of the cost. The reason why prices are high is due to the business model which is beyond the users control. I think it is prudent to keep the prices aside when we discuss quality and performance. Price is best left to the user to decide because it is after all, part of the decision equation.
-------
At Venkat,
Does this conclusion ( the perc values ) apply to the end user's experience as well ? The listener ?
OR
Is this just something you see as a measurement but does not know how it applies to the listener ?
--------
I am in complete agreement with your viewpoint about the amount of money one need to spend for assembling a system. If one is very musically inclined, even a blu-tooth speaker will do. But then as you get to understand the demographic in the hifi hobby, there are many permutations and combinations with regards to " music appreciation capabilities ", " love for the highest fidelity sound ", " budgets " etc... which one cannot ignore. One person's " musical sound " could be another's recipe for disaster.
If one puts a high priority sticker on " love for the highest fidelity sound ", you cannot automatically infer that he is incapable of making a sound judgement.
-------
I am sure, if one were to DIY, the highest end dacs can be made at a fraction of the cost. The reason why prices are high is due to the business model which is beyond the users control. I think it is prudent to keep the prices aside when we discuss quality and performance. Price is best left to the user to decide because it is after all, part of the decision equation.
-------
Last edited:
square_wave
Well-Known Member
Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?
Even at a locked budget, depending upon the listeners music and high fidelity requirements, the amount one needs to spend on a dac will vary.
Listener A Listens to mostly pop and film music. Mostly listens at moderate to high volume
Listener B Listens to classical music and 80s jazz. Loves string quartets. Listens at low to moderate volume levels. Particular emphasis on tonal quality and capability of the system to assimilate details at low vol levels.
The entire system assembly for both these listeners will be vastly different. The percentage of money spend on various gear will also be different across the board. I have seen this happening many times over. All these broad generalizations are pretty much hogwash when you do focused system assembly.
Btw, staying true to the thread, bose needn't apply for listener B
Even at a locked budget, depending upon the listeners music and high fidelity requirements, the amount one needs to spend on a dac will vary.
Listener A Listens to mostly pop and film music. Mostly listens at moderate to high volume
Listener B Listens to classical music and 80s jazz. Loves string quartets. Listens at low to moderate volume levels. Particular emphasis on tonal quality and capability of the system to assimilate details at low vol levels.
The entire system assembly for both these listeners will be vastly different. The percentage of money spend on various gear will also be different across the board. I have seen this happening many times over. All these broad generalizations are pretty much hogwash when you do focused system assembly.
Btw, staying true to the thread, bose needn't apply for listener B
music4mhell
New Member
New thread, more Fun
Does any1 notice the change in Soundstage & musicality with change of DACs ?
Forget about all tech specs and jargon !
Does any1 notice the change in Soundstage & musicality with change of DACs ?
Forget about all tech specs and jargon !
For a long time I have been saying specs and measurement are important. The counter arguments have always been that audio is subjective and that measurement does not matter. That is one of the reasons that many manufacturers get away with ridiculous products at ridiculous prices.
One cannot argue that Andrew Jones is a good designer of speakers. He has delivered many times with products that punch way above their prices. How does he do it? He designs a speaker (including driver and cabinet) to meet some basic measurement and specs that he thinks are important.
I was quite shocked to know that he has been (many times) sending speakers to road shows based purely on their measurement, without even listening to them. That is the amount of confidence he has that a speaker that meets basic specs WILL sound nice.
See the interview below.
https://youtu.be/4Uhkmvd3XnI
Listen carefully where he says specs and measurement are as critical listening to equipment.
When we come to DACs, this gains more importance. As I have said before, DACs take a finite amount of data and manipulate them to create a analog curve. There is only so much you can do with finite data. If someone comes and says - my sampling technique is different, so I am able to extract hidden aspects of the music - I can only shake my head is frustration. In digital data there is nothing hidden. If you are reading the data differently and manipulating the data differently, you are altering the music. To the listener, it will sound different. But is it better? That is arguable endlessly.
As long as a DAC can convert digital data honestly without modifications and alternations - that is the best DAC you can lay your hands on. And this, believe me, can be easily measured in both the digital and analog domains. If this can be done by a 150$ DAC, a $15,000 DAC can only deliver 10-15% of change in performance. I am saying change and not improvement, mind you.
Enjoy the music.
Cheers
One cannot argue that Andrew Jones is a good designer of speakers. He has delivered many times with products that punch way above their prices. How does he do it? He designs a speaker (including driver and cabinet) to meet some basic measurement and specs that he thinks are important.
I was quite shocked to know that he has been (many times) sending speakers to road shows based purely on their measurement, without even listening to them. That is the amount of confidence he has that a speaker that meets basic specs WILL sound nice.
See the interview below.
https://youtu.be/4Uhkmvd3XnI
Listen carefully where he says specs and measurement are as critical listening to equipment.
When we come to DACs, this gains more importance. As I have said before, DACs take a finite amount of data and manipulate them to create a analog curve. There is only so much you can do with finite data. If someone comes and says - my sampling technique is different, so I am able to extract hidden aspects of the music - I can only shake my head is frustration. In digital data there is nothing hidden. If you are reading the data differently and manipulating the data differently, you are altering the music. To the listener, it will sound different. But is it better? That is arguable endlessly.
As long as a DAC can convert digital data honestly without modifications and alternations - that is the best DAC you can lay your hands on. And this, believe me, can be easily measured in both the digital and analog domains. If this can be done by a 150$ DAC, a $15,000 DAC can only deliver 10-15% of change in performance. I am saying change and not improvement, mind you.
Enjoy the music.
Cheers
regeHA
Well-Known Member
To add to what Venkat said, you need to keep in mind most "boutique" speaker brands don't even have the necessary R&D capability or even the $$$ to sink to actual R&D. That's one reason they "play it by ear" literally.
Take a company with actual R&D like JBL. I've been listening to their $300 a pair LSR305 and it images unlike anything I've heard before. It will go toe to toe with speakers at any price point in this department, it's so good, and it all comes down to actual R&D and measurements that let them deliver a speaker so good at such a price point.
I've heard speakers that cost 10 and 20 times more that don't image so well... that's what subjective actually does, all about emotional coloring, but fails in vital departments like imaging, soundstage, noise level, etc.
Take a company with actual R&D like JBL. I've been listening to their $300 a pair LSR305 and it images unlike anything I've heard before. It will go toe to toe with speakers at any price point in this department, it's so good, and it all comes down to actual R&D and measurements that let them deliver a speaker so good at such a price point.
I've heard speakers that cost 10 and 20 times more that don't image so well... that's what subjective actually does, all about emotional coloring, but fails in vital departments like imaging, soundstage, noise level, etc.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
Good measurements are the building block to a capable design. The key word is building block .
Knowing what to measure is important. Knowing what cannot be measured is important as well. The resulting design choices as a result of all these are key to a fantastic design. There is difference between "capable" and "fantastic".
saikatbiswas82
Well-Known Member
I did indeed.New thread, more Fun
Does any1 notice the change in Soundstage & musicality with change of DACs ?
Forget about all tech specs and jargon !
Setup #1
Couple of months back we had a meet in Kolkata. We had a chance to listen to 3 DACs side by side at FM Koushik's place.
Setup was like B&W 602 S2 with Quad 306+34.
DACs we listened to -
1. Benchmark DAC 2
2. Emotiva Stealth DC1
3. Diyinhk DIY AKM dac
Source was laptop.
Each dac sounded different to me.
Setup #2
Last month I had a chance to listen to two other DACs in my setup.
Setup was - Monitor Audio BX2, AmpCamp, Raspberry Pi with Hifiberry Digi+
DACs we listened to-
1. Peachtree DAC-iT
2. PS Audio Digital Link III - Cullen Modded
Each sounded different to me.
IMHO.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Last edited:
Each and every DAC will sound different. In fact, if you change any part of the chain, the sound will change.
Being different does not mean being better.
Cheers
Might not be better, but you have to choose one signature which suits a person best as per own taste and ear and it really involves lots of sessions and auditions around......... I doubt if there is any shortcut!
Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?
so true. when you start listening to classical / jazz music it really show cases a good setup and vice versa. the difference is not that apparent when listening to pop, some types of rock. for that sort of music as long as the sound is big, it works well. and for music like rap, hip hop, trance etc, i always feel it sounds better on a professional rig - just big clean sounds with no complexity in the music
Even at a locked budget, depending upon the listeners music and high fidelity requirements, the amount one needs to spend on a dac will vary.
Listener A Listens to mostly pop and film music. Mostly listens at moderate to high volume
Listener B Listens to classical music and 80s jazz. Loves string quartets. Listens at low to moderate volume levels. Particular emphasis on tonal quality and capability of the system to assimilate details at low vol levels.
The entire system assembly for both these listeners will be vastly different. The percentage of money spend on various gear will also be different across the board. I have seen this happening many times over. All these broad generalizations are pretty much hogwash when you do focused system assembly.
Btw, staying true to the thread, bose needn't apply for listener B
so true. when you start listening to classical / jazz music it really show cases a good setup and vice versa. the difference is not that apparent when listening to pop, some types of rock. for that sort of music as long as the sound is big, it works well. and for music like rap, hip hop, trance etc, i always feel it sounds better on a professional rig - just big clean sounds with no complexity in the music
Beast_of_burden
Active Member
Gents,
While on the subject of affordable DACs, the chord Mojo has been getting stellar reviews as does the ifi Nano and Micro. The Mojo is 40k INR and the ifi micro 499 USD, in the same ballpark. Anyone hear these?
And if anyone has heard the AQ dragonfly, are the Mojo and Micro a significant step up? In my mid fi system comprising BW 600 series and Denon PMA 1500R, I am looking for something that doesn't cost too much but represents a break from the ordinary.
Why doesn't the Cambridge Dacmagic get much respect?
While on the subject of affordable DACs, the chord Mojo has been getting stellar reviews as does the ifi Nano and Micro. The Mojo is 40k INR and the ifi micro 499 USD, in the same ballpark. Anyone hear these?
And if anyone has heard the AQ dragonfly, are the Mojo and Micro a significant step up? In my mid fi system comprising BW 600 series and Denon PMA 1500R, I am looking for something that doesn't cost too much but represents a break from the ordinary.
Why doesn't the Cambridge Dacmagic get much respect?
Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?
Using vinyls via Rega RP3 nearly killed my CD listening ,ear fatigue on extended listening as compared to the Rega was the major factor and entry level denon and marantz CD players were found deficient in that aspect.
Added a metrum octave (many times the cost of the CD player ) and the fun was back in digital.Inference(personal of course) , the metrum was less fatiguing than the internal DACs of entry level CD players(Denon pma700AE,marantz cd 6004).Other factors like tonality,saturation,and ability to unravel complex pieces have not been considered though Im sure these played a part in the less fatiguing and relaxed sound of the metrum.
PS: metrum hardly has any output stage.
Cheers
Since I have aquired an external DAC for CD listening recently, my personal observations are:Even at a locked budget, depending upon the listeners music and high fidelity requirements, the amount one needs to spend on a dac will vary.
Listener A Listens to mostly pop and film music. Mostly listens at moderate to high volume
Listener B Listens to classical music and 80s jazz. Loves string quartets. Listens at low to moderate volume levels. Particular emphasis on tonal quality and capability of the system to assimilate details at low vol levels.
The entire system assembly for both these listeners will be vastly different. The percentage of money spend on various gear will also be different across the board. I have seen this happening many times over. All these broad generalizations are pretty much hogwash when you do focused system assembly.
Btw, staying true to the thread, bose needn't apply for listener B
Using vinyls via Rega RP3 nearly killed my CD listening ,ear fatigue on extended listening as compared to the Rega was the major factor and entry level denon and marantz CD players were found deficient in that aspect.
Added a metrum octave (many times the cost of the CD player ) and the fun was back in digital.Inference(personal of course) , the metrum was less fatiguing than the internal DACs of entry level CD players(Denon pma700AE,marantz cd 6004).Other factors like tonality,saturation,and ability to unravel complex pieces have not been considered though Im sure these played a part in the less fatiguing and relaxed sound of the metrum.
PS: metrum hardly has any output stage.
Cheers
Last edited:
what are the odds that this could simply be confirmation bias? after all your mind is at the center of perception, not the equipment? think that's where measurement and Only measurement matters anything else is "special pleading"
Audio_Freek
Well-Known Member
Hi All,
Just like to share my experience with a DAC which currently in Use at my Set-up. Yes, its Infamous Modi UBER 2.Let me share my observation.
Playing CD's
1. Blu ray-->DAC-->Amp-->Speaker - More clarity\could hear some BG Music as well and good while playing Movies (Could say 25% improvement from Analogue out of Blu ray)
2.Blue Ray-->Amp-->Speaker (This is Normal, and significant improvement compared to paying the
3.CD Player-->DAC--Amp-->Speaker-- Thee is no Much\noticeable difference compared to CD Direct ,Just that the Music is more accurate and missing the Warmness coming from CD Direct.
4.CD Player-->Amp--Speaker - The Sound is warn and Full
Playing Digital Files (FLAC\WAV)
1. Blu ray-->DAC-->Amp-->Speaker -Extra BG and clarity on instrument added voice for some tracks are lively. I could say its again 15-20% Improvement compared to Analogue output from Blu Ray.
2.Laptop -->Amp-->Speaker -- Low gain and no much improvement on SQ compared to be played from CDP\BLU Ray Player (Obviously)
3.Laptop -->DAC-->Amp-->Speaker -- Yes , I could notice a good difference when played through the DAC, More gain, More clarity (In the sense I could find the Difference in few Mins only)
Conclusion
1.If you have nice CD Player, then dont try DAC at all
2.In case you have Any Bluray with Analgue Out, Just try audition DAC then Decide on whether you really want One.
3.If you have a laptop as Source with no good Sound card, Pls go ahead for Nice DAC (External) Since you could feel the difference and might be used to connect other sources as well (varible input options available in Non USB Dac's)
Note: Please dont try to argue on my comments, Since I just posted the observation I felt. Observation made with the current SET-up only
Just like to share my experience with a DAC which currently in Use at my Set-up. Yes, its Infamous Modi UBER 2.Let me share my observation.
Playing CD's
1. Blu ray-->DAC-->Amp-->Speaker - More clarity\could hear some BG Music as well and good while playing Movies (Could say 25% improvement from Analogue out of Blu ray)
2.Blue Ray-->Amp-->Speaker (This is Normal, and significant improvement compared to paying the
3.CD Player-->DAC--Amp-->Speaker-- Thee is no Much\noticeable difference compared to CD Direct ,Just that the Music is more accurate and missing the Warmness coming from CD Direct.
4.CD Player-->Amp--Speaker - The Sound is warn and Full
Playing Digital Files (FLAC\WAV)
1. Blu ray-->DAC-->Amp-->Speaker -Extra BG and clarity on instrument added voice for some tracks are lively. I could say its again 15-20% Improvement compared to Analogue output from Blu Ray.
2.Laptop -->Amp-->Speaker -- Low gain and no much improvement on SQ compared to be played from CDP\BLU Ray Player (Obviously
)3.Laptop -->DAC-->Amp-->Speaker -- Yes , I could notice a good difference when played through the DAC, More gain, More clarity (In the sense I could find the Difference in few Mins only)
Conclusion
1.If you have nice CD Player, then dont try DAC at all
2.In case you have Any Bluray with Analgue Out, Just try audition DAC then Decide on whether you really want One.
3.If you have a laptop as Source with no good Sound card, Pls go ahead for Nice DAC (External) Since you could feel the difference and might be used to connect other sources as well (varible input options available in Non USB Dac's)
Note: Please dont try to argue on my comments, Since I just posted the observation I felt. Observation made with the current SET-up only
A beautiful, well-constructed speaker with class-leading soundstage, imaging and bass that is fast, deep, and precise.
Similar threads
