A discussion on DACs

music4mhell

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As mentioned in my first post, my system consists of a no. of setups (Yamaha Rx-V663 with JBL SCS 200.5/Bose AM6/Boston XS 5.1 etc ) that i use from time to time as i get Bored with the so called sound signature's. when i get bored of a speaker system i switch to another.:), May be i need to invest in a very high end audiophile system, but i know myself i will soon get bored of that also and may need to buy some more stuff.

No sarcasm at all, my dear. Please share your views.

''those philosophy doesn't hold anymore'', why?

Have you ever tried any studio monitors ?
Initially i was about to buy a decent Floorstanding + integrated Amp (Budget - ~ 1-1.5 Lacs), but at the end i bought the studio monitors and sub from Genelecs.

And when i connected to Chord Mojo DAC, now that's heaven :)
 
Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?

Have you ever tried any studio monitors ?
Initially i was about to buy a decent Floorstanding + integrated Amp (Budget - ~ 1-1.5 Lacs), but at the end i bought the studio monitors and sub from Genelecs.

And when i connected to Chord Mojo DAC, now that's heaven :)

If you are in heaven, then you must have a great stereo setup of your liking, I'm more into Home theatre then stereo.

Have you tried these in a surround sound setup.
 
Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?

If you are in heaven, then you must have a great stereo setup of your liking, I'm more into Home theatre then stereo.

Have you tried these in a surround sound setup.

I will never ever try HT.
My reasons are,

1. I have to buy DVD/Bluray, which will cost me hell.
2. I have to buy an AVR and i can't use AVR's DAC for stereo. Dedicated stereo DACs are far far better that AVR's DAC any day.
3. Even if i will download movies which has 5.1 surround, that will be a lengthy process and time consuming.

So i checked all trade offs and spent around 2 Lacs on my current stereo setup.
And i know i don't need to upgrade this setup for next 5 years minimum :yahoo:
 
Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?

I will never ever try HT.
My reasons are,

1. I have to buy DVD/Bluray, which will cost me hell.
2. I have to buy an AVR and i can't use AVR's DAC for stereo. Dedicated stereo DACs are far far better that AVR's DAC any day.
3. Even if i will download movies which has 5.1 surround, that will be a lengthy process and time consuming.

So i checked all trade offs and spent around 2 Lacs on my current stereo setup.
And i know i don't need to upgrade this setup for next 5 years minimum :yahoo:

AVR is designed mostly for movies/surround sound, although some Brands like Pioneer, marantz etc do provide good stereo performance for music also, as i have read in many threads here.
 
Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?

AVR is designed mostly for movies/surround sound, although some Brands like Pioneer, marantz etc do provide good stereo performance for music also, as i have read in many threads here.

Yes they are good, but i am talking about the best of the best here.
Where a standalone good DAC like MDAC+ costs 95K,
chord Hugo 1.6 LAc
Benchmark media DAC is around 1.5 Lac

So i am talking on those range.
 
Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?

IMHO external DACs are always better. I used a budget SMSL (less than $100) and it performs much better than the internal DAC of the Onkyo 616.

Music is sublime, much better separation and detail. Obviously the higher up the chain DACs are game changers.
 
Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?

Yes they are good, but i am talking about the best of the best here.
Where a standalone good DAC like MDAC+ costs 95K,
chord Hugo 1.6 LAc
Benchmark media DAC is around 1.5 Lac

The pricing for these DAC have no meaning anymore. There are much cheaper DACs that claim equal or better performance than these.

Unlike automobiles where a BMW or a Merc will always have a value, electronics is a free for all. Anyone can buy the same DAC chips used by a Benchmark or a Chord, and design better circuits. And there are people who are doing just that.

Cheers
 
The pricing for these DAC have no meaning anymore. There are much cheaper DACs that claim equal or better performance than these.

Unlike automobiles where a BMW or a Merc will always have a value, electronics is a free for all. Anyone can buy the same DAC chips used by a Benchmark or a Chord, and design better circuits. And there are people who are doing just that.

1st Point, Chord doesn't use any DAC chip, it uses FPGA. In this world only 2 company(i am aware of) use FPGA in their DAC, PS Audio & Chord.

2nd point, DAC chip has only 30-40% (IMHO) contribution on whole DAC system. Even LG V10 mobile and Audiolab MDAC+, both use ESS 9018 DAC chip.

3rd Point, Let's come to the architecture, there are 2 types of architecture, 1 is Multibit and other is Delta Sigma. Details google will reveal.

My personal point, SChiit's entry level DAC Modi is one of the best DAC for its value which is only $99. But they have their flagship DAC Yggdrasil which is $2299. Even on their website they reveal what's the difference, why it's high priced etc etc.

I was on the same boat like you 6 months back, but after some research i got to know the importance of a DAC.

Anyways i am just a newbie in this Audio world (1 Year old), so these are all my opinions and research.
Comments & criticism are welcome.:eek:hyeah:

My point was that every speaker will produce sound but the designers have designed it for a specific purpose. Say I have car speakers, studio monitors, PA system speakers, HTIB, sound bards, bluetooth or wifi speakers etc. All these will produce a decent sound to some extent but a car speaker is usually 2 to 4 ohms and may trip the speaker protection circuit of a typical AVR at high volumes, similarly the PA system speaker can be loud but it's spectrum can be limited. Similarly a studio monitor is designed for recording studios so the recording engineer or music director gets the true unadulterated sound. These speakers though very revealing may feel harsh or dry for usual listening by many people especially for home theater.

Home theatre speakers need a lot of dynamism as sound track can go from 10 dB to a 100 dB in a jiffy. At the same time they should be airy any provide an expansive sound field to generate the typical surround sound atmosphere. Studio monitors are typically lacking in the latter attribute as they usually have a narrow sweet spot as the lister is close by.

I am using studio monitors for music, movies, cricket match, youtube etc. I never felt it's harsh or dry. I feel it's perfect, but when i listen to other passive speakers, i feel the low & high freq are boosted up :(
 
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Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?

1st Point, Chord doesn't use any DAC chip, it uses FPGA. In this world only 2 company(i am aware of) use FPGA in their DAC, PS Audio & Chord.

PS Audio digital link III uses Burr Brown PCM1798DB IMO.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
FWIW, the PS Audio DirectStream DAC is the last word in DACs.

The likes of Chord 2Qute and Yggdrasil are excellent, especially in terms of how they perform and they cost, but PS Audio is a different league.

But then I've not heard MSB Analog DAC or even the $90,000 Select DAC, so they might have a thing or two to say about the DirectStream DAC, but for under $6000 the PS Audio DirectStream DAC will be a destination DAC for most high end systems.

Home theatre speakers need a lot of dynamism as sound track can go from 10 dB to a 100 dB in a jiffy. At the same time they should be airy any provide an expansive sound field to generate the typical surround sound atmosphere. Studio monitors are typically lacking in the latter attribute as they usually have a narrow sweet spot as the lister is close by.

I am using studio monitors for music, movies, cricket match, youtube etc. I never felt it's harsh or dry. I feel it's perfect, but when i listen to other passive speakers, i feel the low & high freq are boosted up :(

I can understand what both of you are saying, as I've experienced both sides of the coin personally.

I started with Genelec's and then shifted to the likes of Monitor Audio and KEF (because I wanted more entertainment) and now I'm also including studio monitors in my chain like the excellent JBL LSR305. And of course I've also used Bose quite extensively, not to mention the likes of Sony, Aiwa, Akai, Philips, etc.

Both have their pros and cons, and experience has taught me no single speaker, amp, DAC, etc. will do everything right (perhaps Raidho and Magico might). Otherwise we just have to do the best we can with our budget and other than that there really is no right or perfect way to do anything.
 
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Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?

The pricing for these DAC have no meaning anymore. There are much cheaper DACs that claim equal or better performance than these.

Unlike automobiles where a BMW or a Merc will always have a value, electronics is a free for all. Anyone can buy the same DAC chips used by a Benchmark or a Chord, and design better circuits. And there are people who are doing just that.

Cheers

i second that. i bought an assembled dac kit with a ak4495 dac chip. modded the opamp section with a discrete opamp from linuxguru. it punches much above its weight with branded dacs with similar specs coming in at 3-4 times the cost

I was on the same boat like you 6 months back, but after some research i got to know the importance of a DAC.

i would be careful if i were you when i say that to venkat. even years ago, he's known a lot more than a lot of us ever will when it comes to audio systems
 
Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?

The pricing for these DAC have no meaning anymore. There are much cheaper DACs that claim equal or better performance than these.

Unlike automobiles where a BMW or a Merc will always have a value, electronics is a free for all. Anyone can buy the same DAC chips used by a Benchmark or a Chord, and design better circuits. And there are people who are doing just that.

Cheers

i second that. i bought an assembled dac kit with a ak4495 dac chip. modded the opamp section with a discrete opamp from linuxguru. it punches much above its weight with branded dacs with similar specs coming in at 3-4 times the cost

And its such a good thing too. Especially for folks without the $$$ to spend on $15,000 and $35,000 DACs.

I bought 2 SMSL DACs on Amazon.com, one around $100 and one less than $100, and both have simply amazed me with their performance. I can get an idea how good the HiFiBerry DAC must sound just based on this.

DIY will yield even better purchase, unfortunately beyond my skills. I'm waiting on a friend though, once he has some free time I'm planning on the Soekris R-2R DAC. Might not be as good as my Schiit Multibit, but then it might. Never know unless you try, but I've heard good things about the Soekris and even bought the board, but its lying idle as DIY is beyond my scope.
 
Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?

i second that. i bought an assembled dac kit with a ak4495 dac chip. modded the opamp section with a discrete opamp from linuxguru. it punches much above its weight with branded dacs with similar specs coming in at 3-4 times the cost

Thanks - were you able to close the lid after the LF03 Installation? Perhaps I need to start a separate thread on the LF02 and LF03 discrete opamps. The current work (not yet completed and tested) is a slightly-modified LF03 with a JFET input stage, mainly useful as a JFET opamp upgrade or in applications where very high input-Z is mandatory.
 
Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?

FPGA is also an integrated circuit designed and made by companies such as Xilink or Altera. Your Chord and others need to choose an FPGA and design their circuit around it. Again, that can be done by anyone.

I just wish people overcome this thought process that the more you pay, the better sound you get. Sound delivery has the law of diminishing returns firmly embedded. Schitt, to sell a 2000$ product when their 400$ product delivers well, has to use a lot of marketing techniques. If you keep everything else the same, and just switch the DAC, will the 2000$ DAC deliver five times better results? It will not. Because if it does, the $400 one is failing miserably.

Look at the specs below.

BIFROST
----------
Frequency Response: 20Hz-20KHz, +/-0.1dB, 2Hz-150KHz, -1dB ?
Maximum Output: 2.0V RMS?

THD: <0.005%, 20Hz-20KHz, at max output?
IMD: <0.008%, CCIR?
SNR: >109dB, referenced to 2V RMS

YGGDRASIL
----------
Frequency Response, Analog Stage: 20Hz-20Khz, +/-0.1dB, 0.5Hz-200KHz, -1dB
Maximum Output: 4.0V RMS (balanced), 2.0V RMS (single-ended)

THD: Less than 0.006%, 20Hz-20KHz, at full output
IMD: <0.007%, CCIF, at full output
SNR: > 117dB, referenced to 2V RMS

So what are the improvement? Wider frequency range (which you cannot hear in any case), minor improvement in IMD, increase in gain, and an 8 dB improvement in SNR.

As I said before, keeping everything else the same and ignoring the .001% improvement in IMD, the only significant difference is the 8 dB improvement in signal to noise ratio. The wider frequency range has no meaning as the human ear cannot hear it. That means the Yggdrasil is delivering a 7.3% overall improvement in sound over it's own Bifrost. Even assuming that you give them grace for channel separation, better circuitry, better filters, and an improved realtime clock, you can say the Yggdrasil delivers 30% (4x7.3%) better sound than the Bifrost. BUT, the price is 500% better!! Is that justified? Certainly not. Then how are they able to sell? That is where marketing and control over client thoughts come in. You start small, design a low priced unit well, gain client trust and then wham - out comes a product that is priced at 10 times your introductory product prices. Look at Oppo. They started with a DVD player at some 200$. It was praised to heaven and accepted as the de facto industry standard. Now they don't have any product at less that 1500$. The justification? Better products, better DAC, blah blah blah. In Blu-ray, I firmly believe, if you take the data and transmit it properly, you cannot go wrong. A 200$ Blu-ray player should do that easily. Every company has products suited for various price points and this is how most companies work.

It is the irony of the human mind. When you spend so much money, your mind will force your to justify the spend by saying you are hearing something faar faar better. As I have said many times before, measured, none of the products can show more than 10-15% improvement in sound. Whatever else you are hearing (as improvement) is in your mind and, of course you are welcome to it.

You might very well ask the question as to what I am trying to say here. My advise to everyone is simple. Stop chasing meaningless dreams of upgradation. Balance your system in terms of pricing and specs. Plonking a 2000$ DAC on a 1000$ system is not going to solve anything. It is like taking a truck engine and showing it into a Maruti 800. Your 2000% DAC uses the revered AKM chip. So does your Onkyo amplifier. We get into long arguments as to why one is better than the other. It is better for the DAC to be closer to the source. It is better for the DAC to be closer to the speakers. Brand X uses better components. Brand Y delivers better results. The whole world is talking about brand Y. I have heard brand Y, and I swear I have yet to hear anything better. It is a game changer. It is going to disrupt the industry. Just talking about SNR is stupid. Timing, real time clock, filters, and channel separation make all the difference.

Does any of this matter? Start listening to the music, and stop chasing technologies.

You know what? My less than 150$ Asus sound card has better SNR than both the Bifrost and the YGGDRASIL! Connected to a tube based amp and my single driver speakers, the sound is seriously good. I don't see the value of constantly looking for anything else. I have wasted over 4 years in search for the perfect sound, when I already have had it at home all the time. And believe me, I have listened to some really serious equipment. My ears have never heard more than a 10 to 15% improvement in sound. And that too, when I listened as an auditioner and not as a lover of music. Most important, I really cannot afford those equipment. The ones who can have no time to listen to music.

I now prefer to just listen to music.

Cheers
 
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Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?

Thanks - were you able to close the lid after the LF03 Installation? Perhaps I need to start a separate thread on the LF02 and LF03 discrete opamps. The current work (not yet completed and tested) is a slightly-modified LF03 with a JFET input stage, mainly useful as a JFET opamp upgrade or in applications where very high input-Z is mandatory.

yes there was enough clearance to close the lid, despite having to use an adaptor since there wasnt clearance at the bottom. am lucky since being an assembled kit, theres a lot of space inside.

you should start a separate thread - your opamp is an inexpensive hack to upgrading a dac and sound quality.
 
Re: Are you a BOSE hater/basher? why?

Does any of this matter? Start listening to the music, and stop chasing technologies.

You know what? My less than 150$ Asus sound card has better SNR than both the Bitfrost and the YGGDRASIL! Connected to a tube based amp and my single driver speakers, the sound is seriously good. I don't see the value of constantly looking for anything else. I have wasted over 4 years in search for the perfect sound, when I already have had it at home all the time. And believe me, I have listened to some really serious equipment. My ears have never heard more than a 10 to 15% improvement in sound. And that too, when I listened as an auditioner and not as a lover of music. Most important, I really cannot afford those equipment. The ones who can have no time to listen to music.

I now prefer to just listen to music.

Cheers

Aaap ne to dil pe le liya :) Maaf kar do is nadan bache ko, i just got released :eek:hyeah:

Anyways, i got it what you are trying to say.
I also agree with you on law of diminishing factor/ marginal utility function as per macroeconomics.

My mojo cost me 45K and Hugo costs 1.6 lac. But ppl prefer Mojo over Hugo.

You said there will be little difference between $1000 & $2000, and i totally agree.

But will you say the same when i will compare one $100 & $1000 DAC ?
IMHO, a big "NO".
 
A beautiful, well-constructed speaker with class-leading soundstage, imaging and bass that is fast, deep, and precise.
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