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About price disclosure in "For Sale" section

Wharfedale EVO4.4 Speaker

ubitoo

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Without pointing towards any specific posts, I have noticed, more often than not, listings in the "For Sale" section include a reference/comparison price which is a recently quoted price by some local (to the seller) dealer or some random number (eg. "This item currently goes for 2L") without any verifiable links/documents and does not necessarily have any relation to the price at which the equipment was purchased.

I would not say this is dishonest but definitely feels out of place and adds a layer of opaqueness in an otherwise trustworthy forum.

Would a rule like (below) be of help?
In addition to the price at which you are willing to sell your item, if you quote any other price (eg. current market price) for reference or comparison, you are required to also provide the price at which the item was purchased by you.

The point being: If the seller chooses not provide any reference price, then are also free to not provide the purchase price. But if they do, then providing purchase price is mandatory.
 

drkrack

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I had mentioned this issue in a previous discussion and possible solution, pasting them here because I am unable to locate it. Considering the amount of cyber fraud happening our classified section needs few changes I think.

" I have seen people buying from US and mentioning Indian Mrp for sale or selling it at a higher price than they paid (mostly dealers in disguise). Profiteering should not be allowed in a enthusiasts forum like this. But the premise of classifieds section becomes so complicated, as most of the sellers will definitely get a better price on HFV than Olx etc, so will that be considered as profiteering? No.

Sellers won't sell it here, unless they're assured of better price here, considering the issues involved like following the guidelines of HFV classifieds section and some amount of post Sale responsibility (which is nil in case of Olx selling), should be worthwhile. So it should be seller friendly as well.

This section works if and only if it's mutually beneficial for seller and buyer, so cribbing regarding the pricing is useless. " Its His Item for Sale, so his Price ; its your Money for Buying, you Bargain " should be the moto here. I don't buy the product irrespective of the deal, if there's at least 10 -15% discount over the best selling price for less than 6 months old items (best selling price in India if its an Indian purchase, US if its US purchase ). I mostly take the Audiogon or hifishark prices as reference when buying high-end used items. So ultimately the decision lies with the buyer.

My suggestions is to make the sellers more responsible, instead of dictating the Selling price :

1. Make a mandatory template to be filled ( the template itself shouldn't be user editable), don't approve the 'For Sale' thread without all fields filled
2. Clearly how old the item is? A basic information missing in most threads. Admissible for Vintage items, but what about others? How long you've been using it, if lying unused, how long?
3. Any history of in warranty or out of warranty Service carried out, including the details of Mods and the costs incurred
4. Field for mentioning Purchase price ( Exact cost incurred, USD conversion rate at the time of buying and customs paid etc)! not the MRP of the item ( which can be googled easily). Make this field optional IMHO. Invoice or soft copy are great if available. Also where did you buy it from? If you are expecting a price higher than what you bought it for, you automatically agree to pay 10% of the earnings or Rs 100 whichever is higher to HFV for maintaining the website! Failing which you'll not be allowed to post further in sales section.
5. Mention the Exact Model number ( missing in many threads) also the serial number!
6. Clear pictures with HFV handle, the front and rear of the device either posted on HFV and HiRes uploaded to image hosting websites links
7. A video of the device playing with low and high volume, in case of open to shipping and picture of the serial number of the device. Especially important when sellers want to be paid upfront.
8. A rating system for seller & buyers, the amount of transaction he carried out on HFV and the impression from the other dealing party, with a section for comments available publicly for everyone to read.
9. Anything above this, like verification of seller identity or the condition of the product can be done at a price, with a verified listing badge at a cost of course.
10. Make validity for Sale threads to a Maximum of 30 days, after which it will be deleted or can be reposted only after adding fresh pictures with date.
11. Not eligible to post in 'For sale threads' if you don't have 30 mandatory posts in the forum ; a endorsement from the well known member is must for your initial sale thread, Especially important if you are open to shipping and expect the buyers to pay beforehand.
12. Separate Section for ' Not Owner Sale posts ' ( even when you're selling on behalf of friends) Where anyone can post anything ( according to mandatory Sale thread guidelines) and a nominal fee of Rs 100 per Item needs to be paid upfront to HFV for listing it. Even Gifted items and Items won in contests can be sold here.
13. No question of adding 'no lowballing' or 'don't crap my thread' sentimental posts if you haven't mentioned the purchase price incurred by you. You're in a market section, and trying to sell a product without mentioning the clear credentials, better get used to this! But keep the order of civility in discussions.

I don't think there will be any issues whatsoever if such mandatory listing disciplines are followed. Hopefully Mods may make amendments if possible."
 

asliarun

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I'm not really sure what your point is, and i actually disagree with you. If your concern is that sellers are saying "this item currently lists for X rupees", and even if they are inflating it or say, they are quoting MSRP instead of quoting real on-the-ground prices, how is that an issue? A buyer should be aware of how much that item normally sells for or should do some due diligence on their own. The internet is also there for easy verification.

I also don't agree on sellers needing to post their own purchase price. I've never understood how that helps? All that matters is the current price of that unit. As a buyer, why are you so interested in seeing how much profit or loss the seller is making? I mean, if the seller discloses that information, that is their prerogative. But why force them?

This is a second hand buying/selling platform. Rules should be focused on making sure that a selling post discloses pertinent and accurate information necessary for a transaction - which is selling price, age and condition of equipment (using a non-subjective way like Audiogon formula for determining condition of equipment), detailed high resolution pictures of equipment from all sides, disclose and identify dings and visible or invisible damage and things not working, accessories that will be provided along with the equipment, warranty coverage if any, how it will be packed and shipped and insured, and details about how and when money will change hands. And maybe some details on how and when the transaction will be closed - meaning what happens if buyer notices a malfunction or issue that occurred during shipping etc. (although this last point is usually unspoken protocol or a gentleman's agreement kind of thing).
 

spirovious

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I remember once l has crossed one FM on his Nad amp sale thread,others were not happy and was suggested "Lena hai to lo or forget".
Then posts in sale thread were not allowed.With upgraded forum,its possible now.

On seller side, all information about product should be correct(physical and working condition).
Buyer can verify real price from sellers purchase history and bargin.
 

Nikhil

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Ha! Everybody wants rules when they are buying and no rules when they are selling!

The Sale Forum is provided on here as a free service to the audio community.
We expect that forum members will obey an honor code of having transparency towards fellow members.

No amount of rules & regulations are going to control those who willfully break them.
However, there is some amount of safety built in when you buy from well known forum members.
Before you purchase look up the members activity and behavior on the forum.
That usually will indicate what kind of person you are dealing with.



.
 

Naturelover

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Before you purchase look up the members activity and behavior on the forum.
That usually will indicate what kind of person you are dealing with.
That's the best indicator by far, and especially so when the seller has low post count and prospective buyers are hesitant.
Apart from that, I do believe FMs near the seller will be willing to check out the item for fellow FMs.
This a very friendly forum is what I have seen in personal interaction with numerous members.
 

sanjivnayak

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This is not an online selling platform and a buyer today becomes seller tomorrow. May be a person while posting an item for sale also looks for something to buy. As such it is always advised to inspect the items physically and accordingly take a call. If it is not possible to check the item then go by your luck. There is one catch in sale post, " Item can be shipped at the buyer's cost and risk". And anything may happen in transit. Good luck for your next purchase.
 

efernand1

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I guess one should do his homework (buyer / seller) and document ...detail the sale as much as possible (honestly) so that transparent good deals are made. HFV is a great platform and yes there are instances where things are sold quite less and there are instances where some bargain like the veggie market!

All have their restricted budgets and target price,,,,,,each one should be respected.....provide an offer...if too low or not acceptable, just say no.....
 

flute

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It seems only one moderator is here to clarify all doubts in the forum.Hope others to be here for clarification.
 

Fiftyfifty

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Honestly speaking the original question has not been answered .
I believe there original question has been fully answered by the moderator! The current rules are more than adequate to provide a framework for honest transactions between buyer and seller. Adding further restrictions may not be advisable. The general principles of buyer beware, due diligence, etc. apply here as in any sale transaction in business
 
D

Deleted member 38504

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It seems only one moderator is here to clarify all doubts in the forum.Hope others to be here for clarification.
Waiting eagerly for you to start in the “for sale” thread.
What Nikhil says is absolutely true. The mods are working full time. In their free time, they moderate and do their best to keep the forum clean. Everyone wants rules when they want to buy anything. When they want to sell, the same rules don’t want to be followed. Filtering is impossible. If unsure, don’t buy. Like others rightly said, learn more about the seller and his quality of posts.

Otherwise there is always olx.
 

sidvee

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. Everyone wants rules when they want to buy anything. When they want to sell, the same rules don’t want to be followed.
Let me add one more thing, everyone wants lowest price in the world while buying, whereas they want highest price while selling. Let the market determine the pricing of a product, not by rules and regulations. That will never work.
Cheers,
Sid
 

srinisundar

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Let me add one more thing, everyone wants lowest price in the world while buying, whereas they want highest price while selling. Let the market determine the pricing of a product, not by rules and regulations. That will never work.
Sid

Well Said. Getting the new prices or currently selling prices are not so difficult to get now days.. Just search the google you will get it.. Your product is well worth and interest to the buyer it will fetch the required price.. Thatz it..
 
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sidvee

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Adding to Srini's comment above, if one wants specific Audio component information subscribe to:

https://bluebook.audiogon.com/
http://www.usedprice.com/items/audio/index.html
http://www.kruipen.com/

and many more sites like this.
Agreed above are US$ pricing, but buyer will get a clear idea what international prices are and then it is upto the buyer to decide whether offered price by seller is a good value or not.
With internet access and in the back office capital of the world, I find it strange that people cannot find out what the actual used value of a component is and then decide for themselves whether to buy or not.
Cheers,
Sid
 

powerslave

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I think we should refrain from speculating or passing commentary on mentality of people or even placing people into buckets like buyer vs seller . While price negotiation is a bilateral conversation between individuals and can happen over PMs , leading comments on price on opening post like xyz retails for N when it does not are definitely misleading to lot of folks . Now as much as we can push the burden of verification on to someone who is buying the question is shouldn’t we simply make it a rule for people to only put the expected price ? I say this because if we do not expect seller to reveal what he or she actually bought the object for then by same principles we shouldn’t entertain idea of inserting a statement on lines of this retails for X hence asking for Y . It should be plain and simple I expect Y . Let justifications or questions on pricing happen on PMs or private channels . My point being we discourage buyers from posting directly on sale threads when pointed questions are asked , why not address the root issue itself ? For what it’s worth I recently bought two components on HFV transactions were smooth and great so no complaints irrespective of how long the stuff lasts (that’s luck ) .
 

flute

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Right now I don't have anything to sale .I will start posting once I have anything for sale section.Anyway thanks for your suggestion.
 

rpmahale

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Instead of pricing of the product, what most important is the truth about products age, Physical and operational conditions matter the most. Price can be verified and concluded from various sources but working condition can't. In some cases physical examination of the product is not possible, it is just the trust of FM which push the deal ahade. It's all the depends upon the seller to quote the product price but he must also remind that this is not a profit making portal , we help some genuine audiophile to purchase his dream product. All the way buyer have full liberty to negotiate on the seller price considering the facts of the product. The most important is the trust between FM in the transactions is the key for success of classified section. I truly believe and appreciate the moderators for believing on FM and provide such a key platform for needy sellers and buyers. Hope smooth transaction will take place between FM with satisfaction at both ends.
 

ubitoo

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Wow! This thread took off in ways I did not initially expect.

While I completely agree with many of the points and counter-points presented by fellow FMs including buyer's responsibility of verifying facts. I want to mention that a very large portion of Indian users are new to internet and vulnerable to unsafe things online. Furthermore, we could agree that beyond the usual Marantz, Dali etc. there is not enough pricing transparency in this industry.

Again, without mentioning specific posts, there have been more than a few instances where a reference price was mentioned (in addition to selling price) which makes the deal/discount look sweeter than it really is and kind of feels "out of place" to someone having more information. Simply put my proposal was: If a reference price is included it better be the price at which the item was purchased. No point in mentioning random price the seller saw online or some dealer quoted them recently. If they do not want to disclose their purchase price just quote the selling price and move on.

To clarify concerns of FM @asliarun, I have no intention of knowing the seller's profit/loss nor I suggest that disclosure of purchase price be forced. The seller is free not to quote any reference price at all.

In conclusion
However, at the end of the day, it was only a suggestion and I see merits in both sides of the debate. I really thank fellow FMs for considering and discussing the topic. The etiquette that was maintained by everyone in the ensuing debate is also appreciated. I am sure community rules will evolve as needed with time. Thanks, everyone!
 
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