Absolute Phase Bangalore

Shouldn't a generous return policy be considered same as a home demo?

No.

Most have some kind of return policies, especially when one buys online. I have enjoyed the same here in India when I bought my amp, as already described in one of my previous post. Thanks for your links, however, I have already written about this kind of return policy in my posts above. I have also described how for certain articles (like a TT cartridge) this return policy is not as generous, quite understandably so.

This is certainly not the same as a home demo with no strings attached. As I said, some dealers would still offer a home trial to some customers whom they trust, but I do not know of any dealer having home demo as a general policy with no purchase made upfront. The closest they can come (as far as a general policy is concerned) is for the customer to purchase first, then try at home for a period of time and then return the item without restocking fee (for example, see here Magneplanar Mini Maggie). The volumes are much larger there, so they may be able to do this with a few of the anticipated hot items for a limited period, but the question obviously remains what do they do with the returned items, what happens when some items are returned in less than perfect shape. Somebody somewhere will have to pay for it, and the sooner we understand that, the better it is.

More than thirty years ago, any thing could be bought, used (rather abused) and returned from Departmental stores in the US. Anything really means anything: shirts, umbrellas, electronic home appliances, even underwears. I have seen large scale abuse of this system not just by Asians, by Americans as well. I have also seen large scale abuse of free social benefits in Germany in the late eighties, especially when it came to health related and unemployment related benefits. There is no reason to think we Indians are the only species in the Universe to abuse a good system. Times had to change, and they have, both in the US and in Europe. As far as I know there are now more stringent checks to avail some of these benefits.

In an ideal world, the seller and the customer know their respective responsibilities. In such a world, the above benefits are good and will work. But we do not live in an ideal world.

There is no reason to think that I am trying to defend the dealers/sellers. There obviously has to be equal protection of customer interest. There exist a lot of gross violation of customer interest with people getting ripped off, as we all know and have suffered at times. But that is not the subject here, and we can discuss that some other time.

Finally, I want to reiterate the main points again. If you happen to be friends with a seller or the seller has faith in you for whatever reason, you may get certain benefits like a home demo with no strings attached. I do not think there exists any difference regarding this issue between India and any of the Western countries in general (there may be a few exceptions here and there both abroad and here, but they do not form the general trend). But what needs to improve in India is a consistent policy of returning stuff like our member "that guy" has given examples of in the above post. But no system will survive unless both the seller and the customer behave responsibly.

I have no knowledge of finances, business, management and most commercial issues. I am writing only my direct observations and conclusions made therefrom, conclusions which seem reasonable to me :).

Regards.
 
Shouldn't a generous return policy be considered same as a home demo?

These returns are very rarely tied down to "I don't like how it sounds in my home" or "how it plays with my other equipment". They are mostly put in place to give the customers confidence to shop online with a money back guarantee if things don't work out as planned or anticipated and especially for defective goods. I'm sure the customer is expected to do his own due diligence and only order after he feels fairly certain the equipment will work in his home environment (I'm talking of audio equipment here). If such a returns policy would be tied down to a home demo I'm sure there would be a lot of abuse of this system and also no outlet or company will let you home demo and return multiple items. Maybe once or twice and any N number of times as long as the equipment is defective and within warranty.

Coming to the links you have shared I believe most of them are retailers/stockists and not the manufacturers. Only Emotiva to my knowledge offers such a no questions asked returns policy.

Emotiva offers a 30-day, no questions asked, hassle-free returns policy, except for clearance products.

More than thirty years ago, any thing could be bought, used (rather abused) and returned from Departmental stores in the US. Anything really means anything: shirts, umbrellas, electronic home appliances, even underwears. I have seen large scale abuse of this system not just by Asians, by Americans as well. I have also seen large scale abuse of free social benefits in Germany in the late eighties, especially when it came to health related and unemployment related benefits. There is no reason to think we Indians are the only species in the Universe to abuse a good system. Times had to change, and they have, both in the US and in Europe. As far as I know there are now more stringent checks to avail some of these benefits.

I have spent some time in the US and even now make frequent/yearly visits and I have found the abuse is mostly by Indians and Mexicans/Hispanics (more so). Maybe its more in the regions I've stayed Los Angeles, San Diego, Denver (a little bit), & Colorado Springs.
 
Sir,
I have lost you here;
Can you shed some light ?
Please....
The part that I have marked in Green i.e.

Hi Bhagwan

Let me explain - it is undoubtedly ideal to make sure of the system delivering to your satisfaction in your own home, before buying, though there may be various constraints (commercials, trust, abuse etc. as Asit has pointed out in an articulate manner).

I merely said that it is not easy to immediately get the best results from high new quality equipment being tested from your own home, unless your system is already correctly optimized. For instance, I had to spend several weeks taming room boom and harshness, and it was quite an effort.

Hence if the equipment in question - say an amp - delivers faultlessly in a dealer's showroom, but does not in the home listening environment, the environment may be at fault, not the equipment. Hence a potential buyer who brings stuff home, and tries out, and is disappointed may be reaching the wrong conclusion.

But once the home environment is completely settled, I agree, for very high end equipment, a dealer demo may not be enough. A home demo would be needed before making a final decision.

Also, the sale does not take place in days - rather it takes months. In that time, I know from personal experience, dealers quickly sense the seriousness of the buyer, the need to build a relationship, and do send equipment across. even if they did not INITIALLY know the person. After all, they could be making 1.5l net if they can find a buyer for a 4.5l amp. In India, repackaging already demoed equipment as new seems so widespread a practice that they would not let such a minor (by their standards) dilution stand in the way of a lucrative sale opportunity.

On the other hand, if the dealer demo itself is unsatisfactory, a lot of pain would be saved. I have experienced that a lot in Adelphi, Singapore.
 
On the other hand, if the dealer demo itself is unsatisfactory, a lot of pain would be saved. I have experienced that a lot in Adelphi, Singapore.

I second that - other than the fact that Adelphi has a great collection of equipment under one roof, the quality of the demo. rooms in some cases is very substandard (worse then many in India IMO). At-least to me it was quite difficult to judge the equipment based on auditions there.
Cheers,
Sid
 
Hi Bhagwan

Let me explain - if the dealer demo itself is unsatisfactory, a lot of pain would be saved.

Sir,

There are 2 things; As I see it.

a]
Demo in Dealers Place is Good & it Sounds Poor @ Home.

b]
Demo in Dealers Place is Poor.

In the Case of [a] - if the client buys after he has auditioned @ Dealers place - he will be disappointed with the performance @ his house.

In the Case of - if the Demo @ Dealers place is poor - the product gets 'written' off by the potential client.

Therefore my simple submission is :-

Listen @ D & D's Place.
If it is liked - request for it to be sent to the house.

Assure the D & D that if it plays well - better than what you have - you will 100 % buy - price to be fixed - before hand.

Alternately, if the choice is between 2 CD Players - take both to your house - listen to both & decide which one is preferred & pay for that - That is the way I think one should proceed....
 
I work part-time as a demonstrator at an highend audio store in London. The Store has a simple policy to all our customers :

1. The customer is free to visit & take demos upon prior appointment in the showroom umpteen number of times till the customer is fully convinced what he's buying.

2. If the customer wishes to try it at the comfort of his home, he's 1st required to pay the full 100% price & the store is happy to set it up at his home - (if necessary).

3. In case the customer is not happy with the purchase, he can return his purchase with all the packagings, etc intact (just like how it came to him). And the Store will refund him 100% of his money. No obligation.
BUT the product must be scratch-less with all the packaging intact. Any misplacement & the return offer is void !!

However, I have hardly seen anyone take (2)/(3) route while mostly all buy once they're convinced & happy.
 
Coming to the links you have shared I believe most of them are retailers/stockists and not the manufacturers.

Yes. We are talking about dealers/retailers. AP is a dealer.

Only Emotiva to my knowledge offers such a no questions asked returns policy.

Maybe you want to read the return policies of the following manufacturers/sellers (they all implement the risk-free-trial concept, though to different degrees):

Crutchfield
LessLoss
JansZen
Audiophilleo
Benchmark
Tactlab
Sonos
Audioaffair
Anthony Gallo (Gallo direct)
Amazon

And don't forget Bose. They have a great return policy in the US.

I agree that a risk free trial may not be possible for all products. (I tried looking for a dealer who will let one try a McIntosh at home and couldn't find one).

As for no strings attached home trials, there are reasons why it doesn't make sense. What happens if you damage the item, or decide to run away with it. At that point, if you have given the seller nothing but your word, the whole deal is out of the legal framework and there is no way to enforce the verbal contract. The kind of home trial that Bhagwan is talking about seems more like 'family and friends' policy. That is *not* scalable and I am not surprised that no seller is offering it as a general policy. A robust return policy sounds like a very good alternative to me.
 
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The kind of home trial that Bhagwan is talking about seems more like 'family and friends' policy.

I have sent audio gear to people I have never met;
If any person that I sent gear to - in Cochin / Hyderabad / New Delhi / Pune etc were to walk into my office - I would not recognise them.
I just sent gear to persons that showwed interest in audio - simple.

Yes, I have been hurt by this policy - I had sold Argento Speaker Cable to Greece by Fedex & never got paid for it.
But then I have sold Bertram in Canada & Still Points in Russia & California & Denmark & got paid for it - I always ship first & get paid later - I do believe that people in Audio are generally trustworthy & they have a right to try before they buy.
BTW - My Bertram Optima XLR Copper 2.0M is on Demo in HK for the past 1 + Month - not been paid for it as yet - I just shipped it to an audiophile for his trial;;;; The ref came to me from my web site via an email.
 
A robust return policy sounds like a very good alternative to me.

There you have hit the nail on the head, according my own judgement.

When I got my amp with a return policy (as written in one of my previous posts), that arrangement was not just verbal. In the package, there was a printed document with the terms and conditions of the return (these T&C were already discussed before with the seller). That paper I may still have in the original packaging. However, I am not sure if this policy is a general policy adopted by the dealer. I have not seen any statement regarding that as a general policy in the websites of any of the dealers I am familiar with, at least in India.

Regards.
 
I work part-time as a demonstrator at an highend audio store in London. The Store has a simple policy to all our customers :

1. The customer is free to visit & take demos upon prior appointment in the showroom umpteen number of times till the customer is fully convinced what he's buying.

2. If the customer wishes to try it at the comfort of his home, he's 1st required to pay the full 100% price & the store is happy to set it up at his home - (if necessary).

3. In case the customer is not happy with the purchase, he can return his purchase with all the packagings, etc intact (just like how it came to him). And the Store will refund him 100% of his money. No obligation.
BUT the product must be scratch-less with all the packaging intact. Any misplacement & the return offer is void !!

However, I have hardly seen anyone take (2)/(3) route while mostly all buy once they're convinced & happy.

this is perfect. However, once you give a money to a dealer in India, you may never get a refund.
 
However, once you give a money to a dealer in India, you may never get a refund.

This varies from dealer to dealer. But on the whole, in India with monetary matters, the "trust factor" is a big issue - from both, the dealer & the customer's sides. Unless of course as fellow FM Asit says that the dealer had a wonderful Return Policy charted out in his case for his purchase of the Leben.

Hence, the customer is lax to pay full 100% for it, take it home with all the loving care (more than he would to his wife + kids :lol:) for the moment, set it up, try them & see if it floats his boat.

And if not, he packs it back just the way he got it, takes it back to the dealer for a refund - only to be told - Oh!! you messed up this edge slightly or mucked up the Factory packing so how do you think I will sell it now & so on - so that the dealer can get rid of the customer.

Abroad, there's something called "demo unit" which the dealer gets from his country distributor/importer at a reduced price. Sometimes, with serious customers, stores can pass on the "demo unit" to the customer for home trial & if the customer likes it, he can return the same back the way he got it & pick up a brandnew Fresh unit. Or else, take his refund.

Presumably this system does not work in India. Or does it, am not aware ?
 
This thread brings up a lot of issues of buying audio gear here in India. Its hard on dealers to take a risk on a customer with whom they have no previous experience. I'd like to bring up the difference between margin and profit.

Dealers may have a discount of 40% or more/less on a product. Its important to realize that this is not his profit but its a margin in which the dealer has to spread costs for all sales in his establishment - not just the one deal. Working out the numbers will explain a lot.

1. Amplifier/Speakers with list price of about 2.5 L
  • Dealer Price at 50% = Rs 1.5 L
    (price at which dealer buys from manufacturer)
  • Duties, freight, insurance, local taxes = 31%
  • Basic Price after duties & taxes = 1.5 L + 46,500 = Rs 1.96 L
  • Margin (Selling Price - Basic Price) = 2.5 L - 1.96 L = Rs 54,000
  • Assuming Sale at discount of 5% then Margin = Rs 41,500
  • Dealer Profit = Margin - Expenses = Rs 41,500 - expenses

    What has to appreciated here is that expenses are very difficult to quantify even for well established businesses much less a small sized business. But with a margin of Rs 40,000 you can expect to have services like home demos etc. which should cost the dealer about Rs 4K approx. on the high side

2. Amplifiers/Speakers with list price of about 1 L
  • Dealer Price at 50% = Rs 50,000
    (price at which dealer buys from manufacturer)
  • Duties, freight, insurance, local taxes = 31%
  • Basic Price after duties & taxes = 50,000 + 15,500 = Rs 65,500
  • Margin (Selling Price - Basic Price) = Rs 35,000
  • Assuming Sale at discount of 5% then Margin = Rs 29,500
  • Dealer Profit = Margin - Expenses = Rs 29,500 - expenses

    Again at this level you can expect to have pretty decent service given the margins that the dealer has assuming costs of about 3K on the high side.

3. Amplifiers/Speakers with list price of about 40K
  • Dealer Price at 50% = Rs 20,000
    (price at which dealer buys from manufacturer)
  • Duties, freight, insurance, local taxes = 31%
  • Basic Price after duties & taxes = 20,000 + 6,200 = Rs 26,200
  • Margin (Selling Price - Basic Price) = Rs 13,800
  • Assuming Sale at discount of 5% then Margin = Rs 11,800
  • Dealer Profit = Margin - Expenses = Rs 11,800 - expenses

    Here and below it starts to get tricky because with service costs still at about 3K, you really can't expect to have premium level service. The bulk of business in audio gear is at this level and it really depends on the dealer and the customer here. The margins are not really that bad for the numbers here but this may not be the case for all dealers.

* these numbers are for dealers directly importing the product. If you are dealing with a sub-dealer then he probably works on 10% - 20% margin or less so things become more difficult. By putting the numbers out there you can see where the dealer is coming from. In case something goes wrong you can see the hit the dealer will be taking on the item.

If you are buying a product that comes closer to Consumer Product price levels then you have to expect to be dealing with a mass product supplier like CROMA. The higher up you go you start dealing with more boutique sellers who are likely to sell higher end but you have to give them the margins to offer you the service you expect.

We also have to be a little realistic about the service level expectations. While we like the customer to be king, the truth is we are one of many customers that they deal with. The dealer has a right to refuse your request but you have to be reasonable with your request/expectations.
 
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We also have to be a little realistic about the service level expectations. While we like the customer to be king, the truth is we are one of many customers that they deal with. The dealer has a right to refuse your request but you have to be reasonable with your request/expectations.

Sir,

Nice Post; Articulate.

However, 1 small thing that crosses my mind.

If a Product is Listed @ US $'s 2,000/- in USA.
Does it have a MSRP [Maximum Suggested Retail Price] of Rs. 115/- K here ?

If the Answer is yes, then what you state is 100 % accurate & we Indian persons cannot ask for anything from the D & D.

However, my Limited Exposure to products in India tells me that the the US $'s 2/- K product in India is Sold @ Rs. 150/- K ++
Can other FM's add to this ? Please...
 
Margins in India on a per capita basis is thicker. But I don't blame the dealers because the volumes are low in India.

It's usual for DnDs in India to have a 20-50% over-marking on US prices. It doesn't hurt in small ticket items that much, but in case of expensive items? Well, most people would love to take other routes.

PS: Margin vs profit applies equally to US. Expenses are even higher in US. Most entry level hifi dealers don't even have staff who knows the product they are selling. They just seem to expect everyone walking their door to be a bass freak and screeching highs lover.
 


If a Product is Listed @ US $'s 2,000/- in USA.
Does it have a MSRP [Maximum Suggested Retail Price] of Rs. 115/- K here ?


If the buying price is $2,000 then you have a Landed Cost of $2K + 31%.
Landed Cost = $2K+ $620 = $2,620
Landed Cost (Rs) = $2,620 * Rs55/dollar = Rs 1,44,100
Selling Price = Rs 1.44L + 20% or more


If the dealer gets a 40% Resale Discount ($2K less 40%)
Landed Cost = $1.2K+ $372 = $1,572
Landed Cost (Rs) = $1,572 * Rs55/dollar = Rs 86,460

Selling Price of Rs 115K by which you mean a straight conversion of the USD price in Rupees is a decent margin for the dealer depending on his resale discount.

MRP is another subject altogether. But you can say that a manufacturer will specify to a dealer some price level to stay at.
 
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Nikhil, Bhagwan, the numbers I remember for a particular make was SGD 8800 (USD/SGD was 1.33 at that time, so this was USD6,600). USD / INR was 45 at that time, so INR 297k. In India I got a price of 400k. So effectively 1.33x.

For smaller items like ipad etc. the effective exchange rate is much closer ~1.1x of current market rates, instead of the 1.33x in previous example.
 
Internationally, HiFi sales are :

Manufacturer >>>> Country Distributor >>>> Nationwide Dealers >>>> Customer or end-user

"Country Distributor" is strictly not supposed to sell to the end user. He does not also have any demo facilities nor a Showroom. He buys bulk, imports, custom clears & maintains stock in a warehouse.

"Nationwide Dealers" are appointed by the Country Distributor to represent the brand & perform Sales promos etc, demos, dealing in a retail fashion with the end user.

On several Highend gear, the manufacturer gives the products to the Country Distributor at 50% pricing. Some very exclusive products are also given it at 33.3% pricing.

In India, on most occasions, the Distributor & Dealer is one & the same. Hence, max profits are eaten by 'this fellow' who plays the distributor & dealer roles together.
 
Internationally, HiFi sales are :

On several Highend gear, the manufacturer gives the products to the Country Distributor at 50% pricing. Some very exclusive products are also given it at 33.3% pricing.

In India, on most occasions, the Distributor & Dealer is one & the same. Hence, max profits are eaten by 'this fellow' who plays the distributor & dealer roles together.

2chFreak careful how you put it. To say that this is "eaten by this fellow" is misleading. The discount is not given for nothing. They are expected to lift product in bulk quantities and handle countrywide distribution and that can be a risk. A country distributor/dealer I know was asked by one company they work with to pick up 250 units of a particular product. This is not talking about the interest costs etc to cough up the money up front.
 
A country distributor/dealer I know was asked by one company they work with to pick up 250 units of a particular product. This is not talking about the interest costs etc to cough up the money up front.

I would hate to prolong this OT discussion on this Thread hence this is my last post.

However, all manufacturers will push numbers/volumes. That's what they're there to do. Hence, 250 pcs is NOT something unusual. In India, it can be a nightmare !! As its yet to be a mature market. Nevertheless, with strategic pricing, distributors & dealers surely can penetrate enough as buyers are many ... western markets are saturated with buyers today.
 
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