Affordable Music PC with External DAC

Arjun, the laptop needs to be as cheap as possible but I quite like the idea of a small netbook from ASUS loaded with Windows 8 or the most basic Lenovo machine..The netbooks should be had for around 18,000 and the Lenovo laptop comes for Rs.25,000 with an i3 processor and 4 GB RAM which is more than sufficient....

Thad, IMHO every device needs to be used for what it does best....marrying a phone and a PC will make everyone go crazy as they currently doing....

Panditji, for this price + the USD500 DAC , bhagwans suggestion on the iPod is the best in price and quality. itwill give you the Best sound and its built in Dac is far better than the cheaper USB ones available. If you feel up to it you can get the iPod classic and get it modded by redwine audio...that will make the sound better than most entry level cdps. http://redwineaudio.com/mods/imod
You will just need to do a one time conversion of your flacs to either apple lossless (Or 320 Kbps mp3 )
While net books Are a dead investment in 18 months...can't be used for anything. The iPod will go on and on. I still have a 2nd gen iPod bought in 2003.. Used it in my car till last year until the battery gave up.
 
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I'd also like to chime in and try to dissuade you from getting a Netbook for Music PC duties. I think it would be a better idea to prep a bare-bones PC for this. You could build one under 17K for sure, perhaps for 15K. Use a fanless Atom board or an E350/E450 AMD board. They run cool without any extra effort on our part, esp. if you can use an airy cabinet. That would eliminate the biggest source of PC noise.

You would be in full control of future upgrades to the PC in terms of swapping out components. Repairs if any, would be far cheaper and easier. You'd be able to use it longer. And perhaps, you might get better sound: I have the impression that the USB ports of netbooks tend to be optimized for lesser power usage, than for performance. I could be wrong here, but I do think I've read this a few times in various places.

I would also support your inclination towards not using a phone to control the PC. Unless you really need an internet connection on it for a purpose other than remote control, you will be able to leave the PC without any antivirus, which itself would be a good thing IMHO. Just use a cheap monitor (you can buy used, or use your TV, or buy a 14/15" panel for about 3K) and a mouse. A KB can be plugged in from the home PC as and when needed. The KISS principle always bears great results, in my experience.
 
antivirus is a must - to be left out :) AV is gonna introduce all kind of problems in your music pc. Using mac/ ubuntu (linux) can keep your life very simple without a worry about viruses.
 
... The iPod will go on and on. I still have a 2nd gen iPod bought in 2003.. Used it in my car till last year until the battery gave up.

OT

I have the same model which I bought in 2002, I think. 2nd gen, 20GB, non-color. These are still the best sounding iPods IMHO. The battery in mine gave up the ghost a couple of years back. But it still works in my Car, via the Alpine iPod interface. I use it to store & play some albums (that I'd like to have with me always) in WAV.

BTW, the battery can be replaced for about 3K, I think. Kits are available online.
 
Thanks for all your suggestions...they do make sense but my problem is that I am not very good with technology and it would be very difficult for me to make a Music PC due to my limited knowledge unless somebody builds it for me ... If that can be done then, then a music PC makes a lot of sense... Let me try and find somebody who can make such a PC... Please do suggest if anyone knows or has got one made for themselves....

In that case, I should be able to use the Optical out into a decent DAC and maybe get better sound...

I am not open to an iPod as I would be lazy to convert music into a particular format...a PC/Laptop gives me the flexibility to play all kinds of files as and when I download them and would save me the hassle and time of having to convert the files into one format everytime..
 
You would be in full control of future upgrades to the PC in terms of swapping out components. Repairs if any, would be far cheaper and easier. You'd be able to use it longer.
This sums up exactly why my advice has always been against puchasing portable devices unless portability itself is required --- or it is a lifestyle decision to match the furniture.

For an audio machine, these days, the lifestyle aspect is taken care of by cabinets that simply don't look at all out of place in the hifi rack.
I would also support your inclination towards not using a phone to control the PC. Unless you really need an internet connection on it for a purpose other than remote control, you will be able to leave the PC without any antivirus, which itself would be a good thing IMHO.
It is LAN connection between the controlling device and the player, which will not have access to the internet unless specifically initiated. I would have thought that this was perfectly safe, but I have not much kept up-to-date on these things for a whole decade.

Just use a cheap monitor (you can buy used, or use your TV, or buy a 14/15" panel for about 3K) and a mouse. A KB can be plugged in from the home PC as and when needed. The KISS principle always bears great results, in my experience.
Sure. The monitor could look good, and a wireless keyboard, etc, could save that terrible effort of getting up from the couch. How remote controls have spoilt us! :cool:

antivirus is a must - to be left out :) AV is gonna introduce all kind of problems in your music pc. Using mac/ ubuntu (linux) can keep your life very simple without a worry about viruses.
It's true, but as a linux/ubuntu user, I feel we should not be complacent about these things. The risk is less, but not non-existant.

Thanks for all your suggestions...they do make sense but my problem is that I am not very good with technology and it would be very difficult for me to make a Music PC due to my limited knowledge unless somebody builds it for me ... If that can be done then, then a music PC makes a lot of sense... Let me try and find somebody who can make such a PC... Please do suggest if anyone knows or has got one made for themselves....

The hardest part of building a PC is choosing the components! Unless one is in regular touch with the market, the current range of appropriate chips and motherboards is just baffling, and one just has to take advice. After that, it is no harder than a jigsaw puzzle --- but, perhaps one's first venture into such things should not be undertaken alone.

If you just don't fancy the DIY aspect, probably the shop where you buy the case and components will be happy to do the assembly for a fairly nominal sum. Make the purchase on the basis of a built machine, and then the responsibility to hand over a tested and working system is theirs, and they should offer some sort of warranty over and above the individual parts.
 
I am not open to an iPod as I would be lazy to convert music into a particular format...a PC/Laptop gives me the flexibility to play all kinds of files as and when I download them and would save me the hassle and time of having to convert the files into one format everytime..

Since Audio quality is not that much of an issue, Just get an Xtreamer model or a WD live model. will give you SPDIF and there is a future use as a Movie server (have one for my kids at home) and is cheaper.
netbooks are a waste and unusable in a year due to speed.

BTW Conversion of formats is actually pretty easy. Foobar does it very easily and in Bulk mode
 
Since Audio quality is not that much of an issue...
Panditji opened with an enquiry about $500-700 DACs: I would have thought sound quality was an issue. but
get an Xtreamer model or a WD live model.
Indeed: another avenue to explore.
netbooks are a waste and unusable in a year due to speed.
:confused: I have a nearly-ten-year-old laptop. There have been two or three repairs, but it still works and is perfectly usable. Incredibly, it has never even had a windows re-install, which usually fixes the slowing-down thing that seems inherent to Windows. I occasionally toy with the idea of a netwbook or tablet, both for travel and for slouching-on-the-couch surfing, but I have no experience of either, so I'm also interested in any reasons not to buy.

I would agree about conversion. With both points of view! Easy, yes --- but a chore. This next is more personal... I wouldn't install itunes on anything (a prejudice from early days when one of my regular problems in the office was people installing it on their PCs) and I wouldn't go for the Apple format, with MP3 being universal and FLAC and OGG being almost so. This is more to do with what I am comfortable with than pure practicality, and, obviously, others will be comfortable with other equally valid approaches. I've never owned an Apple device, and probably never will, so I do not gravitate towards iThings.

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Panditji opened with an enquiry about $500-700 DACs: I would have thought sound quality was an issue. but

Indeed: another avenue to explore.

:confused: I have a nearly-ten-year-old laptop. There have been two or three repairs, but it still works and is perfectly usable. Incredibly, it has never even had a windows re-install, which usually fixes the slowing-down thing that seems inherent to Windows. I occasionally toy with the idea of a netwbook or tablet, both for travel and for slouching-on-the-couch surfing, but I have no experience of either, so I'm also interested in any reasons not to buy.

I would agree about conversion. With both points of view! Easy, yes --- but a chore. This next is more personal... I wouldn't install itunes on anything (a prejudice from early days when one of my regular problems in the office was people installing it on their PCs) and I wouldn't go for the Apple format, with MP3 being universal and FLAC and OGG being almost so. This is more to do with what I am comfortable with than pure practicality, and, obviously, others will be comfortable with other equally valid approaches. I've never owned an Apple device, and probably never will, so I do not gravitate towards iThings.

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Thad, i have a 1999 powerbook (mac) whch still runs well..only that it is on OS9 :rolleyes:. i did experiment with Linux Builds but was difficult.
Also a 2003 dell which boots and runs windows sufficiently well.
But a 2010 netbook is just a slow moving brick...runs worse than the other two :(
if you want to go that way, a tablet is pretty good. My wife has a Google nexus which she is thrilled with..everything from reading books to her Soaps. (ipad is a PAIN for videos)
i believe the optimised OS on tablets make it faster than netbooks which are nothing more than a compromise. you could look at the ASUS transformer prime if you want something which has best of both and better than a netbook.

Regarding Apple, I have worked with them In Cupertino for a couple of years and was part of the initial Ipod/itunes teams so do have a sentimental connect there ;)

I converted some of my Flacs to ALAC ..and later to 320KBPs Mp3 , with the originals backed up, for my iphone and play it happily in my car which has a decent setup..definitely better than any OEM stereo. I just ran a "job" overnight afte selecting the folders I wanted converted and picked them up in the morning and put it on itunes. Incidentally had done this couple of years ago with foobar as well when i used to run windows at home.

i like itunes since it keeps music well organised on all the "i" devices at home ;) but Dont like it for the constraints it imposes..so well understand the dislike for it.

Given a choice would run Windows on a Mac Mini (or 2 using J play ;) ) but at this moment will wait for the "sedimentation" process in technology and then decide
 
Thad, i have a 1999 powerbook (mac)... Also a 2003 dell... But a 2010 netbook is just a slow moving brick...runs worse than the other two

Noted. Thanks. You could well be right about compromise as compared to optimised. Also, whilst i would hate to use a tablet for office-type work, it is probably much the nicer gadget for home/entertainment, especially when one has a desktop anyway.
Regarding Apple, I have worked with them In Cupertino for a couple of years...
Whoops! Putting my foot in it again :lol: But I expect you are used to strong feeling both for and against.

Having dragged myself (inertia!) away from Microsoft, I would not want to jump into bed with Apple. It just wouldn't make sense. Even if I avoid them both, my soul is still mortgaged to Google for Android. I even dread the need of a new laptop, because I really don't want to learn even the rudiments of W8 so as to "support" Mrs G. Closed mind? Maybe: but with quite a few years in the deciding. What would I do if, one day, MS Wn was proved to be the most hifi of all OSs? Tough question!

Well... I hope there is something useful in this personal stuff for panditji. Otherwise, apologies for the thread diversion.
 
Noted. Thanks. You could well be right about compromise as compared to optimised. Also, whilst i would hate to use a tablet for office-type work, it is probably much the nicer gadget for home/entertainment, especially when one has a desktop anyway.
Whoops! Putting my foot in it again :lol: But I expect you are used to strong feeling both for and against.

Having dragged myself (inertia!) away from Microsoft, I would not want to jump into bed with Apple. It just wouldn't make sense. Even if I avoid them both, my soul is still mortgaged to Google for Android. I even dread the need of a new laptop, because I really don't want to learn even the rudiments of W8 so as to "support" Mrs G. Closed mind? Maybe: but with quite a few years in the deciding. What would I do if, one day, MS Wn was proved to be the most hifi of all OSs? Tough question!

Well... I hope there is something useful in this personal stuff for panditji. Otherwise, apologies for the thread diversion.

All comments and suggestions are very helpful to me...please keep them coming and do not hold back...nothing is off topic as this forum is about audio and as long as we don't talk about washing machines and ACs or invertors...

All the same, I still do not want to go for a music PC even though I agree with Hydra and Arjun for the very reason that in future if there is an alternative, it will be a waste...Netbook would be out and I think i would like to go for a laptop as 1) I am used to playing music with it.. 2) Just in case my existing laptop goes for a toss, I have a back up...3) Internet radio can be played easily ..4) better looking than a music PC and takes up less space...


The next decision would be a decent USB DAC...Do you think the new USB 3.0 ports on the latest laptops would be better for sending music to DACs? Again, my choices are the Schiit Bifrost, Halide HD and the works...I am also getting a good offer on a Northstar Essensio DAC within the same price range? What would you suggest? Or a W4S DAC1 for a little higher?
 
I still do not want to go for a music PC even though I agree with Hydra and Arjun for the very reason that in future if there is an alternative, it will be a waste.
Let me just make one more comment on this, although it also involves requesting further comments from those familiar with the current state of laptops/cpus/motherboards, which, these days, I only ever look into when I have to buy.

The audio PC would be a pc. Comments needed from others, but it might be as powerful as a cheap laptop. Therefore it would be hard to imagine it going to waste entirely. Most of our PCs are way over-powered and over-specced. A small simple machine will, for a long time, be good for simple work and browsing --- or being a music machine somewhere else.

As things stand at the moment, the alternatives are the traditional sources (CD player etc) and the hifi music servers/players, which might be called specialised PCs anyway.
Do you think the new USB 3.0 ports on the latest laptops would be better for sending music to DACs?
No. Because I don't yet (anyone?) know of any USB3.0 DACs or interfaces. But I don't think they will be any worse as they are backward compatible. They will be good for USB3.0 external discs, and, one day, DACs etc will catch up.
my choices are the Schiit Bifrost, Halide HD and the works...
Don't know. Can't help. All good names. Have been tempted by W4S, but no experience of any of those makes, only reading. Over to the others... :)
 
I have posted a amd e350 based setup in for sale forum. If u upgrade with a silent pico psu and I can set it up with linux/windows as purely a music player with both optical and usb outputs... it can be hooked up with a monitor/tv and controlled as per your discretion. The entire cost with upgrade of psu should work out around 12 to 13k

tapped on Note II cdma
 
listened to some music yesterday - source being my phone, saavn the app, and music streamed on 3G. Ultimate convenience. Albums/ songs available at the speed of thought
 
Panditji, how do you plan to control the music that you want to play. Will you have the playlist ready before you start to play or would you dynamically add to playlist using a remote control. This is important as second option requires you to have a larger display to be legible from your listening distance, and hence, a small form factor PC with a large monitor would be a good option. A laptop display will not suffice for reading from distance. Also, imho, provisioning for a laptop for future use when your current laptop goes bad may not be a good idea. With the world around us moving to touch based devices, the user interface in the digital world is also becoming touch centric, which might be cumbersome to use for old style laptops in future e.g. look at the new rediff website, I always cry when I want to surf it on my office system but it works fine on my nexus 7.

Regarding USB 3.0, I am not sure what is the requirement for it. From what I understand, USB 2.0 has enough bandwidth for the highest fidelity music we have right now. Giving extra bandwidth does nothing as it wont be used, it will just up the price because of the latest and greatest hardware.
 
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Panditji, how do you plan to control the music that you want to play. Will you have the playlist ready before you start to play or would you dynamically add to playlist using a remote control. This is important as second option requires you to have a larger display to be legible from your listening distance, and hence, a small form factor PC with a large monitor would be a good option. A laptop display will not suffice for reading from distance. Also, imho, provisioning for a laptop for future use when your current laptop goes bad may not be a good idea. With the world around us moving to touch based devices, the user interface in the digital world is also becoming touch centric, which might be cumbersome to use for old style laptops in future e.g. look at the new rediff website, I always cry when I want to surf it on my office system but it works fine on my nexus 7.

Regarding USB 3.0, I am not sure what is the requirement for it. From what I understand, USB 2.0 has enough bandwidth for the highest fidelity music we have right now. Giving extra bandwidth does nothing as it wont be used, it will just up the price because of the latest and greatest hardware.

I usually select songs on the software playlist for an hour or two and if needed change the playlist if required...Could be different albums, different artists and maybe at random sometime.... would not require looking at the playlist as I will be making the selection first and then maybe read a book while it is playing ....

You are right about the the advancement in laptop technology but atleast for the next 3-4 years traditional laptops are not going anywhere...as it is, I would always be the last to switch to newer hardware as and when it becomes a must....my work laptops anyways need to be changed every 3-4 years as i am not very careful in taking care of them....Since I would not be installing anything extra, I am assuming the laptops should be quiet and power supply noise should not be a problem as i will be using very few resources...these days for Rs. 25,000 you can buy a laptop with an i5 processor and 4 GB RAM..I think it is powerful enough and future proof for the next 3-4 years...
Both a laptop as well as a music PC would be used just to play music so it makes sense to buy a laptop as might be able to use it as a backup and it is also portable and requires less space....

My apologies but i am quite set on using a laptop as I am not convinced on the advantages and usability of the music PC.
 
Let me just make one more comment on this, although it also involves requesting further comments from those familiar with the current state of laptops/cpus/motherboards, which, these days, I only ever look into when I have to buy.

The audio PC would be a pc. Comments needed from others, but it might be as powerful as a cheap laptop. Therefore it would be hard to imagine it going to waste entirely. Most of our PCs are way over-powered and over-specced. A small simple machine will, for a long time, be good for simple work and browsing --- or being a music machine somewhere else.

As things stand at the moment, the alternatives are the traditional sources (CD player etc) and the hifi music servers/players, which might be called specialised PCs anyway.

No. Because I don't yet (anyone?) know of any USB3.0 DACs or interfaces. But I don't think they will be any worse as they are backward compatible. They will be good for USB3.0 external discs, and, one day, DACs etc will catch up.

Don't know. Can't help. All good names. Have been tempted by W4S, but no experience of any of those makes, only reading. Over to the others... :)

Thad, the last time I worked on a PC was in 2008 when i quit my job...since then I have used a laptop and frankly the laptops today are just as powerful with the added advantage of portability and small size....Also correct me if I am wrong, but if the laptop is not running many softwares then won't the power supply be breathing a little easy which should not make it any different from a PC?
 
^^ Somewhat OT:

Continuing the Laptop vs. PC discussion, I'm personally a non-believer in laptops, except where portability is so essential that I am willing to give up on a lot of things.

I find laptops to be too restrictive in terms of usability, repairability and upgradability. They are also too expensive for the kind of limited (to me) usability they provide.

It is very difficult to find and keep an ergonomic working posture while working on a laptop. Short sessions of maybe an hour at a time maybe fine, but working on a laptop for an entire day's work is asking for (nay, begging for) various postural and other problems in the long term. I'm on my computer for about 8-9 hours a day during my working time (and I'm quite concerned about my health/fitness) so this is a very important consideration for me.

I stopped using laptops for daily work after my first laptop that I bought in 2002. It still works, BTW -- the screen is bust and the CD-Rom does not work. It is a lot like my 19 year old cat: moody, needy, quirky and barely functional. But it works. I've gone through 2 laptops since then, and I currently use a tweener -- not quite netbook, not quite laptop. I've not been happy with any of them, but my current one fits the bill, for the kind of usage profile I've bought it for.

I use a HP dm1 that I set up with an SSD when I need to travel, and absolutely need to work on something that needs Windows. It is rarely used otherwise. It came quite cheap and it is very light. And it is just powerful enough to run most programs without too much fuss (11.6"/AMD-E350/4GB RAM/64GB SSD). For my everyday browsing at home, and for short trips, I use a 7" tablet, which is far far more convenient for the job.

Laptops are too expensive to repair (as compared to desktops), and except for RAM and HDD swaps, need a qualified tech. Any computer that I can't open up and fix myself is a no-no in my book.

In our Music PC context, I think all laptops are designed to work efficiently on batteries for as long as possible. This could be an overriding consideration in determining their performance, and the amount of power supplied to individual components. I think most laptops have a "full power" software setting, but even this could be a somewhat "optimised" setting, designed to eke out the most from the battery at this setting.

Sorry for the long anti-laptop rant :)

If you would like to setup a Music PC, I'd suggest you look for the following:

Motherboard: Any dual core Intel Atom board or an AMD E350 "Fusion" board. The Asus E350M1-M series is fanless and is very good for Music PC use. I use one of these. I got mine more than 2 years ago, so I'm not sure if these are still available. Approx Cost: 5-6K.
HDD: To taste. At least a 500GB WD Green HDD. About 3.5K.
RAM: 2GB will do. Corsair recommended. About 2K.
PSU: A decent Corsair 450w SMPS will run to 2.5K. A PICO PSU would be great, but it might run to 5K with the power brick. Worth it, IMHO, for the extra silence.
Cabinet: If you don't want to put in a soundcard any Mini ITX Cabinet would do (depending on whether you get a Mini ITX board or a Micro ATX Board). About 3K.

Like Thad, I look into the computer components market only when I need to build a PC, so I could be a bit off on the prices.

I did not know anything about building a PC from scratch at the time I bought parts for my Music PC (3 years back). I had been swapping out HDDs and RAM in my office PCs for a few years before that, so could manage my way around a PC's innards. I did some homework and bought the parts online, and had a local mech assemble it. I watched him while he did it. 5 months later my motherboard went bust. I was able to take the entire PC apart (my cabinet is a PITA to work in, the price I paid for it's looks), and swapped out the motherboard myself. Since then, I've built 3 PCs, I think, and made numerous upgrades to various PCs. It is not difficult to do.
 
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I usually select songs on the software playlist for an hour or two and if needed change the playlist if required...Could be different albums, different artists and maybe at random sometime.... would not require looking at the playlist as I will be making the selection first and then maybe read a book while it is playing ....
I usually play music one album (equals one piece, if W. Classical) at a time. Picking the next one is no bigger deal than putting on a new CD. It is the minute-to-minute stuff like volume control that makes remote control really stand out.

Since I would not be installing anything extra, I am assuming the laptops should be quiet and power supply noise should not be a problem as i will be using very few resources...these days for Rs. 25,000 you can buy a laptop with an i5 processor and 4 GB RAM..I think it is powerful enough and future proof for the next 3-4 years...
You could install something huge like an Oracle database and it would make no difference --- unless you use it. It is not the software that you install, it is the software that you run. It is a common Win-PC fallacy that simply installing stuff fills up "the memory." It's a side issue. Except that, for instance, if it is an occasional backup PC, you might want to put a whole MS Office suite on there. Go ahead: it won't affect your music playback!
Both a laptop as well as a music PC would be used just to play music so it makes sense to buy a laptop as might be able to use it as a backup and it is also portable and requires less space....
It doesn't really take up less space. A "headless" media-case pc takes up no more room than an amplifier

My apologies but i am quite set on using a laptop as I am not convinced on the advantages and usability of the music PC.
No need for any apologies: it is entirely your choice. Others may make points about that choice, or point out where ideas might be a little astray, but, in the end, it is for you to be happy --- with something that looks and works in the way that you want it to look and work

Thad, the last time I worked on a PC was in 2008 when i quit my job...since then I have used a laptop and frankly the laptops today are just as powerful with the added advantage of portability and small size....Also correct me if I am wrong, but if the laptop is not running many softwares then won't the power supply be breathing a little easy which should not make it any different from a PC?
A PC case is mostly empty. whereas a laptop is necessarily crammed with components forced into a small space. This is one of the reasons that components in a laptop may have short lives compared to components in a full-size case. Most computers are barely stressed. My CPU rarely exceeds 25% unless I process video files.

On the other hand, our laptop, even with a dead battery, will, on a small UPS, run far, far longer than my tower on a bigger UPS. They use less electricity.

I think we should take it that your decision, which is where you started the thread, is to use a laptop and take it from there...
 
One more vote against using a laptop for music ... they are noisy as heck.
By noise I mean RF interference between the different components - video cards specially.

If you would still prefer to use a laptop, take this route for Euro 220/-

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