Amp upgrade with Canton speakers: Feasibility study

[Asit]

I think I have to agree with Arj here about Tube watts. I was astonished how the shindo 12 watts per channel amp drove a difficult to drive Usher mini dancer. This is a floor stander version of the 718be. The amp had the speaker's woofer's by its (you know what ) and what control it exhibited !
Every musical instrument in place, clean un-distorted power and supremely musical !
I do not think a 12 watts SS amp can do this with the Mini dancer.

Well, 12 Watts are 12 Watts, as arj and others have also said. But that is only the continuous rms power delivered. I guess what you are actually getting at is the power-reserves that is there on demand and this is in plenty in the Shindo you are talking about. Did I understand it correctly?

Let me then ask (Cranky, I am actually reading the stuff, but not done yet, and cannot resist asking this), can one design a SS amp at 12 wpc with similar reserves of power? It is probably not done usually, but if one wanted, is there anything in principle against?

 

[square_wave]

I also stress to them that SS are more like 'jack of all trades' and that tubes can be great for classical etc but disastrous for Rock.

Dear Dinyaar,
This is a problem a hi-end diy designer friend of mine faced. He tells me that the lack of slam with tube equipment is not an inherent problem with tubes. It is more of problem for commercial tube manufacturers finding it difficult to design tube amps with all these qualities to a certain price point.
So he build tube monoblocks which weigh more than 50kg per side and believe me it has more slam than some krells with all the other qualities of tubes. He used to have the Plinius SA Reference SS map costing some 3 or 4lakhs. These tube amps have more slam and sound much better too.

 

[persiflage]

Hi Guys,

An old tube freak told me something recently that i did not totally agree with but there is some truth. He went on to say that me and a few others are searching for something (neutrality,detail, transparency) that is unreal and just not there in the music and tubes is the only thing that can emotionally involve u with the music, as in his opinion a tube is as close to hearing a musician live as it can get. SS amps are going over the top and trying to project things beyond what can actually exist.
Rgds

Dinyaar, I agree to the extent that tubes convey a feeling of 'being there' - the secret I think is in the way they capture microdynamics etc.. I don't think there are adequate metrics for what are essentially subjective and human considerations.

Another option worth exploring is Class D. I have been working my way through some monoblocks based on the B & O ICEpower module, and the results are not to be sniffed at. These puppies are certainly better than anything SS in the same price range, and in my opinion come close to tubes on a number of parameters. Add to that outstanding bass performance, and the package becomes really appealing. There are a number of additional benefits as compared to tubes - lightweight, low power consumption, maintainability etc. Do audition them if you get a chance. Bel Canto, Acoustic Reality and a few others have some nice implementations.

Asit: Who would not agree with your method of assessment? It's all about the music after all, isn't it? It was a pleasure to note that you found so much to like about the Cayin; it's indeed a fine amp.

Persiflage

 

[odyssey]

Dear Dinyaar,
This is a problem a hi-end diy designer friend of mine faced. He tells me that the lack of slam with tube equipment is not an inherent problem with tubes. It is more of problem for commercial tube manufacturers finding it difficult to design tube amps with all these qualities to a certain price point.
So he build tube monoblocks which weigh more than 50kg per side and believe me it has more slam than some krells with all the other qualities of tubes. He used to have the Plinius SA Reference SS map costing some 3 or 4lakhs. These tube amps have more slam and sound much better too.

Absolutely, its at the end how its done, not just what is done. Unfortunately, the cheaper implementations end up with the typical problems that most people hear about regarding tube implementations (no lower end performance, etc, bloom, etc). At the same time, you also hear other similar problems in SS - stuff like SS is harsh or bright, etc at the end its design and how well its executed along with synergy. There is no absolute

cheers

 

[Rem]

Fascinating read this one guys.


Guys like me who has just started dreaming about good speakers amps and source gets so much info from you guys

Plinius, Krells, Brystons, tube amps I do not know when m gonna buy any of those or even audition them but to get to listen about those through this forum itself is just fascinating u guys are awesome


keep it coming.

 

[odyssey]

Rem,
they are all available in BLR, you just need to ping people to see if they will let you listen to their setups...I am sure most wouldnt have a problem, its the only way to get more exposure...

 

[Rem]

You know it best Odyssey.
one of the first places to audition some of these would be your place I hve been wanting to come and check some of the stuff for a few months now; never got time got married in btwn as well that never helps either

 

[dinyaar]

Hi
Ya REM today everything is available and lots of guys have it so an audition is possible.
What amazes is how far budget gear has come. Its like u spend a lac and get a stereo set up that satisfies u say 80%. Now chasing the remaining 20% will put u back tons of money and u will still feel perplexed!!!! and maybe still be only at about 90%. Sorry i dont know how to express this better.
Rgds

 

[neo]

Man this thread is getting more intresting. Keep it up guys.
I've also been in this analytical & warmth debate with my friends & i feel the discussion can be never ending.
The only conlusion that i can think of is having a few diff set up's cratering to your diff moods & music. But yes that will require loads of time & money.

@ Dinyaar don't worry about the cables, my friend is almost a bawa in this regard. I'm sure you know what it means

@ asit keep the auditons coming. Can't wait for you to start the home demo's

All the best.
Cheers

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Neo,
I know exactly what u mean!!! Hahaha
Actually having two amps is exactly what i am planning. But now i dont want to dish out too much. So we see if my wife manages to get the Prima luna for her dad from sgpore, hear it with my speakers and then just buy another in august when she goes to sgpore again. That is the plan. So i am buying this kimber for what i anticipate i need in the future!!!!!! Now is that not being a bawa!
Rgds

 

[Rem]

Hi
Ya REM today everything is available and lots of guys have it so an audition is possible.
What amazes is how far budget gear has come. Its like u spend a lac and get a stereo set up that satisfies u say 80%. Now chasing the remaining 20% will put u back tons of money and u will still feel perplexed!!!! and maybe still be only at about 90%. Sorry i dont know how to express this better.
Rgds

Nice to know that with abt 1 lac you can get close to 80% of what one needs coz thts exactly the kind of budget i have for my initial setup ; but auditioning takes time I started my quest last october think I wil have something in hand by end of this year atleast coz m starting of my quest as a novice I always take time to do my research and get the best possible stuff for the budget. I took almost one year to get the right set of speakers for my computer some 6yrs back.

I could not have asked for a better place to ask for help than this forum this place is awesome .

 

[Asit]

Hi dinyaar,

Is that the Prima Luna Prologue 2 integrated amp you are planning on? Or the Prologue 3/4/5 pre/power separates?

Would you kindly share how you chose the Prima Luna over, let's say, the Cayin A-88T which you also heard and liked?

Is there anybody selling Prima Luna in India and at what kind of prices for the Prologue 2? It retails in the US at USD 1675 according to their website. Directly converted it then comes down to 80-85K.

How much is the Cayin A-88T in Mumbai?

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Asit,
Yes am getting the prologue 2 integrated as that what my dad in law wants. The A 88T is here with a friend already. Want to do an A/B in my set up as and when possible. I prefer the cayin for what its worth. Both are KT 88 based and versatile enough and made in the same factory in china.
Dont know bbay availability or pricing but sgpore it should be got around 50K as per a person who bought it in Nov. Can only confirm details/pricing when my wife gets it towards the end of this month.
Rgds

 

[odyssey]

You know it best Odyssey.
one of the first places to audition some of these would be your place I hve been wanting to come and check some of the stuff for a few months now; never got time got married in btwn as well that never helps either

sure, lets fix up a time and meet up at the showroom, I will be happy to show you what we have.

 

[Asit]

I think I have to agree with Arj here about Tube watts. I was astonished how the shindo 12 watts per channel amp drove a difficult to drive Usher mini dancer. This is a floor stander version of the 718be. Recommended power amps are the 150 watters. This tiny 12 watter amp had the speaker's woofer's by its (you know what ) with tremendous control.
Every musical instrument in place, clean un-distorted power and supremely musical !
I do not think a 12 watts SS amp can do this with the Mini dancer.

Sq_wave and Sridhar,

Please confirm: The mini Dancer 1 has nominal impedance of 8 Ohms and sensitivity of 85 db/W/m and for the Mini Dancer 2 these data are respectively 4 Ohms and 90 db/W/m. Are these correct?

Sridhar, have you ever tried the Leben CS300 with these speakers? If not, what is the toughest load (speakers) you have tried this with? And what were the results?

If you still have my e-mail address, why don't you discuss some price points there (for example for the Leben CS300)? I know it may be slightly uneasy for you to discuss and suggest products as such! Can you at least compare the CS300 with a product like the Cayin A-50T or A-88T?

 

[odyssey]

Sq_wave and Sridhar,

Please confirm: The mini Dancer 1 has nominal impedance of 8 Ohms and sensitivity of 85 db/W/m and for the Mini Dancer 2 these data are respectively 4 Ohms and 90 db/W/m. Are these correct?

Sridhar, have you ever tried the Leben CS300 with these speakers? If not, what is the toughest load (speakers) you have tried this with? And what were the results?

If you still have my e-mail address, why don't you discuss some price points there (for example for the Leben CS300)? I know it may be slightly uneasy for you to discuss and suggest products as such! Can you at least compare the CS300 with a product like the Cayin A-50T or A-88T?

Hi Asit
This is correct on the Mini-Dancers. I currently have no plans on bringing the MTM version but at some point in the future I might. I have with me and have heard only the Mini-Dancer 1. While looking at the spec it may not seem like something anyone would try, it works very very well. I have tried the Leben CS600 (I dont have the CS300) with me on the Mini-dancer 1s as well as the Be-718s and they sound good. The CS300 is roughly at the same price point as it is in the USD. I couldnt find the latest price in USD but it was about $2.5K. I am sure there has been an increase in the price in the last 6 months due to the phenomenal rise of the yen against other currencies). The Leben has some advantages for the price -
1. Ability to choose nominal speaker impedance
2. its an integrated, so there is no need of an external pre
3. It has balance control which can be useful
4. An innovative bass control which is also useful
5. A fantastic headphone amp (there are people on head-fi who buy this for the headphone part alone)
But as is the case with many things in life, the Shindo is in a different league as is the price for a pre/power setup.

I do have your email address but didnt have any info that I needed to email directly to you If you have any further questions, I will be happy to answer them

cheers

 

[arj]

Asit, it is not worth it getting into a Tube Vs SS debate..there is no winner. its like a Atheist and a priest arguing on Gods existance in the end it does not matter whats it is made of but only on How it is made and hence how it sounds.

eg my earlier Sugden is Single ended SS amp which sounds "tube-ish" in terms of the midrange and the Leben a Push Pull A/B tube amp which sounds more like a "SS" in terms of slam !. But both are pretty smooth

the advantages of tube amps at least as i see it is that sound can be changed by changing tubes that could be a disadvantage as well.

regarding your well articulated listening sessions. next time you audition could you ask them to put in a better Speaker than the one you are auditioning ? that way you wold know if the speaker is a bottleneck in the chain.

 

[odyssey]

forgot to answer on the Cayin - not heard this amp. One caution with KT-88 type amps and other tube power amps in general. There are certain designs that run the tubes at near full capacity, this in turn can bring down the tube life dramatically. before you buy a tube power amp, pls do enough research to ensure that this is not the case. Ofcourse tube life also depends on your usage patterns. In general expensive designs take into account a need to extend the tube life and there are various ways to do this.

cheers

 

[Asit]

Hi Sridhar,
Thanks for the quick and precise answers. Well the KT88 tubes have been praised in the reports. But thanks for the cautionary words. I'll keep an eye if I decide to drift that way. I sure think it's a beautiful amp though, for the price.


Hi arj,
Well, true, a SS vs tube debate never ends. But I do not think we are actually having a debate here. People are putting up their views with a backdrop of this thread. And I am really enjoying it for the spontaneous responses. For long I have ignored any knowledge on the equipments, let alone any tubes and SS specifics, I just bought something reasonable that my budget allowed very easily and from then on it was only the music. It may not in the end help in my decision making, because I would not buy something because it's tube or SS, but it is enriching my knowledge on what's out there and what people think about.
And yes, I am aware of the limitations on the Epos speakers used in these auditions of the quad combo and of the Cayin A-88T. Although the Epos M12.2 and M12i speakers may be very good for their price, I think they are no match for the Canton speakers at home. Unfortunately this is the best SKS Traders can come up with at the moment. They are dealers for Dali, Dynaudio etc, but I do not see any big speakers in the 2 channel audition area.
I missed a great opportunity of listening to the Cayin A-88T with a Marantz 15S1 CDP and Dynaudio Contour S 3.4 a few days ago at the home of the owner of SKS, but I was busy that morning and could not take the offer (some other guy who has the same amp wanted to test out the Dyne Contours for a purchase, so it was an audition meant for him. After the audition I heard the deal was done and the guy decided to buy the contours and at 3.6L. According to my reports the amp sounded obviously much better with those speakers).

 

[odyssey]

Hi Sridhar,
Thanks for the quick and precise answers. Well the KT88 tubes have been praised in the reports. But thanks for the cautionary words. I'll keep an eye if I decide to drift that way. I sure think it's a beautiful amp though, for the price.

Sure, but I think you missed my point. Its nothing to do with the KT88 tubes or whether they have been praised or not, what I am meant is that it depends on how hard they are pushed in that particular implementation.

cheers