Amps in AVRs Vs dedicated Amps

[venkatcr]

Speaker cables have the last importance in a properly set up HT. Source, amplification, video processing, screen/projector, and speaker choices go a long way in ensuring that your HT works well. Even an HDMI cable/interconnect has more importance.

What I have said is debatable and I have no intention of getting into that. In most cases, the centre and front speakers will be close to the amp, and you can use expensive cables, if need be as you would in a 2 channel system. The additional cost as compared to a two channel system will be the cost of the cable for the centre channel. This is will be, say, 5 meters. I think a couple of thousand rupees in budget of a lakh or more should not matter much.

Cheers

 

[dillihifi]

Everybody says that for Music Two channels is the ideal set up. Fine I will illustrate this by saying that in case of large orchestra playing there are much more than 12 mikes and perfection in which these sounds are rendered in a good two channel setup where people discern the individual instruments and the sound staging makes me think twice whether a good two channel setup will not do justice to movies ??

Listen to Raga Symphony on a two channel setup to see what I mean.

I do not know the inticracies. Maybe there is something other for the movies like slam - bang - subwoofer or feeling the vibrations etc.

Lets have a healthy debate on this issue and educate each other.

 

[venkatcr]

Everybody says that for Music Two channels is the ideal set up. Fine I will illustrate this by saying that in case of large orchestra playing there are much more than 12 mikes and perfection in which these sounds are rendered in a good two channel setup where people discern the individual instruments and the sound staging makes me think twice whether a good two channel setup will not do justice to movies ??

You are confusing issues here. Even if you record with a 100 mikes, ultimately the editor mixes all the sound into just two channels. Ultimately all the sound that comes from a music system is, some way or the other, related to the lead singer or instrument in terms of being accompaniments.

You can discern individual instruments even in a mono system, and that has nothing to do with number of channels.

In a movie, the sound coming from different channels are more related to the scene on the screen and, many times, will have nothing to do with the music. Let me give you few examples. I am not sure if you have seen these movies, but please do when you can.

In U-571, a German submarine is hijacked by US Navy personnel. They are chased by the navies of both the Allies and Germany. In one scene, the Germans throw a large number of underwater mine on the submarine. As the submarine starts to go deeper into the water, the mines start exploding all around it. As you ride on the submarine, you can hear the individual explosions and the whoosh of water all around you. As the submarine sinks deeper, the noises of explosion become remote. If you close your eyes, you can actually imagine the explosions.

In Dragon Heart, there is a scene in which Dennis Quaid is riding a horse and he meets the dragon for the first time. The dragon is arguing with Bowen (part played by Dennis) and as he rides, it flies around him. In a good HT system, you can actually hear the deep flutter of the dragon's wings move around you from one speaker to the other, and also hear it speak to Bowen as it flies. The reason I am so impressed with this scene is that the voice used for the dragon is that of Sean Connery.

In The Hunted, in the first scene, a group of hunters are in turn hunted by Aaron Hallam, played by Benicio Del Toro. He runs around them always being invisible. Though you can hear his breathing and his grunts, you can never see him. As one of the hunters rests near a tree, Aaron (from behind you) throws a knife. The knife travels with a whoosh and then slams into the tree with a thud. I have seen this movie some twenty times, and I know exactly when the knife will fly. In spite of that, I am always startled when the knife hits the tree.

These are just some of the innumerable sound effects that can only be rendered by a 5.1/7.1 system. A 2.0 can never render such effects, because the sound has, for all purposes, just two speakers to travel between.

BTW, have you ever heard a good multi-channel orchestral number on a 5.1 system? Believe me, you will never listen to a 2.0 after that.

Cheers

 

[ajay124]

'BTW, have you ever heard a good multi-channel orchestral number on a 5.1 system? Believe me, you will never listen to a 2.0 after that.'

I have the complete 9 Symphonies of Beethoven performed by the Berlin Philharmoniker,conducted by Herbert Von Karajan,on both CD and DVD.Same performances.Both Deutsche Gramophone.I have heard the CD's hundred's of times.The DVD's may be 4 or 5 times.No way a symphony can sound better played through an AVR/DVDP over the two channel.I would be happy to sell the DVD's if I got a decent price.But my CD Box Set?NEVER!
But I accept what you say about the movies.

 

[venkatcr]

Is the DVD recorded in 5.1, or just the CD in DVD format with a video of the performance? There are some special recordings that have been edited for and recorded in 5.1. These are rare to get.

Cheers

 

[hemantwaghe]

'BTW, have you ever heard a good multi-channel orchestral number on a 5.1 system? Believe me, you will never listen to a 2.0 after that.'

I have the complete 9 Symphonies of Beethoven performed by the Berlin Philharmoniker,conducted by Herbert Von Karajan,on both CD and DVD.Same performances.Both Deutsche Gramophone.I have heard the CD's hundred's of times.The DVD's may be 4 or 5 times.No way a symphony can sound better played through an AVR/DVDP over the two channel.I would be happy to sell the DVD's if I got a decent price.But my CD Box Set?NEVER!
But I accept what you say about the movies.

Have you heard 5 or 5.1 channel originally recorded SACD against CD? In DVD audio resolution is lesser than CD so it sounds crappy..How about SACD or DVD -A? Or how about Blu ray?

What I read from net that it sounds awsome...Venkat sir your views please?

 

[dillihifi]

You have misunderstood me I am not interested in confusing any issues/anyone. Just wanted to get educated on this one since I am interested in the subject. Pls refer to last two sentences of my post.

I am neither for 2.0 over 5.1 nor vice versa but wanted to understand this issue in a greater depth.

I thank you for the detailed explanation you have provided. Well I do have a few points/questions on them.

As the editor mixes the sounds it follows that the no. of mikes used for recording the soundtrack is of no consequence as the editor knows the no of channels he is supposed to encode into and the no of mikes may be for the sounds he may be wanting to highlight. He is at liberty to put the sound into any channel as the scene demands.

As you have given the examples of effects which a 5.1/7.1 provide I totally agree with that. These will always be true as they are meant for the effects.

As you would agree that a good 2 channel system properly setup will give you three dimensional soundstage and this is what I was referring that you get a depth in the sound while watching movies. Consider a case I think which many of us might have experienced at some points of time. Many a time when the telephone rang in the movie I picked mine up thinking the same was ringing.

Another point is that it depends on the content you are watching and the encoding on the disc.

I think making us feel the effects alongwith sound accompanying the same will add more to the effect just as it happens in the cinemas.

 

[ajay124]

Is the DVD recorded in 5.1, or just the CD in DVD format with a video of the performance? There are some special recordings that have been edited for and recorded in 5.1. These are rare to get.

Cheers

5.1 Channel.
But my multi channel memories are from my earlier set up -Yamaha DVDP/AVR, Wharfedale Diamond 8.4 FS/C/SUB/No rear speaker/Dac Cables.
My CD memories are from the same set up,but now also from the current set up- Arcam/Bryston Pre/Power/Vienna Acoustics/Transparent Audio.So I guess there is a huge difference in the quality of the equipment.I frequently listen to music with my eyes closed.Dvd performances are nice to see how the orchestra and musicians function,but for me not as nice to hear as CD.

 

[venkatcr]

As the editor mixes the sounds it follows that the no. of mikes used for recording the soundtrack is of no consequence as the editor knows the no of channels he is supposed to encode into and the no of mikes may be for the sounds he may be wanting to highlight. He is at liberty to put the sound into any channel as the scene demands.

The use of mikes in a live recording or in a movie is much like photography. You never know which shot is going to be nice, so you just click way. After processing, you decide which snaps to publish.

Similarly, a live show is a one time event. That is why sound engineers use multiple mikes and record ALL the sounds on the stage. During editing, bulk of the sound could even be discarded, keeping just what the artist and/or editor wants.

Studio recordings are different in the sense that you can have multiple re-takes.

Movie recording is completely different, in the sense that the camera does not record any sound. The sound is recorded separately by multiple recording machines. The sound is also re-created in the studio both in terms of dialogues and the surround sound. There is a lot of hard work done by these people. In a way, THX was born because of the disparity between what was intended by the Director and what we hear.

As you would agree that a good 2 channel system properly setup will give you three dimensional soundstage and this is what I was referring that you get a depth in the sound while watching movies.

Please remember, the three dimensionality is not a factor of recording. It is more a capability of the player, amplifier, speakers, reflections in the room, and your own ears. A professional studio has no reflections whatsoever. Again, what impresses you is not what was intended by the artist, but more a delay in the time some of the sound take to reach you. Some accompanying instruments are played at low amplitude and, in most systems, you may not even hear them. Take the same CD and hear it with a pair of headphones - you will hear sounds that you never knew were in the recording. A music systems greatness's is recognized by it's capability to be able to extract all the sound in the CD, and make the sound reach you even at moderate volumes.

Consider a case I think which many of us might have experienced at some points of time. Many a time when the telephone rang in the movie I picked mine up thinking the same was ringing.

This is the closest to realistic sound a system can provide. If you think it is your own phone ringing, the system has passed with flying colours.

Another point is that it depends on the content you are watching and the encoding on the disc. I think making us feel the effects alongwith sound accompanying the same will add more to the effect just as it happens in the cinemas.

True, but we cannot change the system, every time the content changes, can we? That is the reason we all take so much effort in assembling a good system. That way, when the media is bad, we will know it is a problem with the recording, or the media.

Cheers

 

[venkatcr]

Have you heard 5 or 5.1 channel originally recorded SACD against CD? In DVD audio resolution is lesser than CD so it sounds crappy..How about SACD or DVD -A? Or how about Blu ray?

What I read from net that it sounds awsome...Venkat sir your views please?

This is a controversial topic. But a SACD and DVD-A beat the pants off a CD any day. They have lesser compression, and a larger frequency coverage.

Cheers

 

[NetFreak]

As you would agree that a good 2 channel system properly setup will give you three dimensional soundstage and this is what I was referring that you get a depth in the sound while watching movies

I think from commercial point of view, movie studios have to ensure that sound is realistic with 2 or 2.1 systems as well.

Market of Blue Ray / DVD is huge, and only a minor segment of users would have proper HT system.

If a movie does not sound nice on "average" user's system, sales for that disc is doomed.

It would be interesting to extract channels other than front/center and analyze the duration for which channels are actually used in a typical movie.

 

[hemantwaghe]

I believe all 5 channels uncompressed right?
hat hoo highr resolutions than Cd right?

It must be aural feast then?

BTW Venkat Sir?other member experienced SACD with proper 5 or 5.1 Channel Musical -Audiophile Power amps attached?How is the experience? Any comparison with same title on CD? ( I read about such rig on net .. SACD player connected to 6 audiophile power amps!)

Again how is live music encoded on Blu Ray? Better than cd? I am not fan of orchestral music ,but any enthu tried that on Blu Ray? How is expereince compared to CD? Compared to Vinyl?

 

[venkatcr]

BTW Venkat Sir?other member experienced SACD with proper 5 or 5.1 Channel Musical -Audiophile Power amps attached?How is the experience? Any comparison with same title on CD? ( I read about such rig on net .. SACD player connected to 6 audiophile power amps!)

This is always the great debate. 'Audiophile' power amp? Many people call the music coming from an AVR as having a multichannel sound. This is in spite of the fact the system is only playing as a stereo.

Companies such as NAD and Arcam claim that their AVR receivers have the same sound signatures as their two channel amps.

This debate will never end.

I have heard a number albums as both Redbook CD and as SACD. The SACD, on a system such as Oppo player attached to NAD mutichannel amp, delivers a larger soundstage, more space between the instruments, and more clarity.

It will be incorrect to compare a DVD-A to a CD.

Again how is live music encoded on Blu Ray? Better than cd? I am not fan of orchestral music ,but any enthu tried that on Blu Ray? How is expereince compared to CD? Compared to Vinyl?

Very few BD-As have been released. I have not heard any till now. So I cannot comment.

Cheers

 

[venkatcr]

I think from commercial point of view, movie studios have to ensure that sound is realistic with 2 or 2.1 systems as well.

Market of Blue Ray / DVD is huge, and only a minor segment of users would have proper HT system. If a movie does not sound nice on "average" user's system, sales for that disc is doomed. It would be interesting to extract channels other than front/center and analyze the duration for which channels are actually used in a typical movie.

Oh, this is the great conundrum that we all faced with the DVD. Companies were forced to ship 5.1 media with bulk of the sound relegated to 3.1. The surround speakers get very little data, as low as 20%. But this trend, particularly with Blu-Ray is changing. With so much space available, it will be criminal to put all data into just two channels.

Many of movies are also being re-recorded with proper distribution of data across all channels.

Cheers

 

[hemantwaghe]

This is always the great debate. 'Audiophile' power amp? Many people call the music coming from an AVR as having a multichannel sound. This is in spite of the fact the system is only playing as a stereo.

No I mean 5 or 6 channels of SACD connected to 6 audiophile power amps with some PRE in between ( Or pre control through Player or Power Amp)
I am certain I read about this,now not getting any links

BTW IMHO low availability of SACD software will kill the format .But BR seems pronising ..Even with video 8 channels of uncompressed data seems promising .so there will be Music releasing on it ( or is it started?)

 

[NetFreak]

Oh, this is the great conundrum that we all faced with the DVD. Companies were forced to ship 5.1 media with bulk of the sound relegated to 3.1. The surround speakers get very little data, as low as 20%. But this trend, particularly with Blu-Ray is changing. With so much space available, it will be criminal to put all data into just two channels.

Thats good to know. When I have some time, I'll extract independent channels and run some analysis (% of time amplitude on channels is more than some base value).

OTOH, its very easy to store 2.1 audio stream as an option in Blue Ray. But the kind of customers that have 2.1 systems might not know that they can select audio tracks as per their system

 

[venkatcr]

OTOH, its very easy to store 2.1 audio stream as an option in Blue Ray. But the kind of customers that have 2.1 systems might not know that they can select audio tracks as per their system

All systems support downscaling. If you go through the audio options in the movie's menu, you can set the audio to stereo mode. This is for systems that do not have an AVR, and just either the TV, or two small external speakers that are powered by the TV, by themselves, or by the player.

Both DTS and Dolby support downscaling to two channels.

Cheers

 

[ajay124]

@venkatcr
"Companies such as NAD and Arcam claim that their AVR receivers have the same sound signatures as their two channel amps."
I too read that somewhere and merely treated it as marketing hype.IMO,in the same price range a stereo amp would be better than an avr and a cd player would be better than a dvd player for music.

 

[dillihifi]

Just thinking out loud

Most of the multichannel mixes puts the listener inside the performers whereas in live performance all the music comes from the stage in front of you. I think this is what you should be watching out for.

Again the same holds good during cinematic viewing but a notable difference is that the action can happen all around you and you can be part of it but when you are watching a 2D flick therefore the surrounds mostly enhance the effect which you do not see on screen.

 

[venkatcr]

Most of the multichannel mixes puts the listener inside the performers whereas in live performance all the music comes from the stage in front of you. I think this is what you should be watching out for.

True, and this was a limitation of a 2 channel system. In an effort to increase the sound stage, the so called audiophile 2 channel systems prices have reached ridiculous prices. With a multichannel system, and with something like 20 GB at play, it is easy easy to create a surround effect economically today.

Again the same holds good during cinematic viewing but a notable difference is that the action can happen all around you and you can be part of it but when you are watching a 2D flick therefore the surrounds mostly enhance the effect which you do not see on screen.

This is a human limitation in terms of sight. You can only see what is in front of you. But we humans, at the same time, have other senses. The ears, for example, can hear nearly 270 degrees straight away and the balance with a slight time delay. So surround sound systems (sound systems, mind you) are meant for your ears that have a large area of hearing.

Cheers