An evening spent 'tweaking' Avidyarthy's ATL Speakers

[srinisundar]

Guys, while you are going there please makesure AVID hifiGF is not there

 

[srinisundar]

I will be happy to hear from CorElement /Avid about his speakers (ca840) with the Krell too, then we can conclude if its the Amp or the speakers.

Yep, that is needed for an living room, not the thumping bass... I believe then the speakers are matching the specs of Krell Resolution 2 / PSB Platinum T6 used for testing in the below review.

Krell KAV-400xi integrated amplifier Page 2 | Stereophile.com

Interesting, isn't it? Everyone knows that Krells have "good" bass: deep, rich, and plenty of it. Yet one of the KAV-400xi's biggest appeals for me was its absence of audiophile bass and its true-to-life delivery of real bass power and depth. Go figure. Yes, there are amplifiersmany of them made by Krellthat can offer a level of shake-the-earth solidity that the 400xi doesn't have, but at least it tells the truth as it sees it, within its capacity to do so. If you want to storm the gates of hell, you have to give the devil his dueand I think ol' Patch comes a lot dearer than $2500.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Guys, while you are going there please makesure AVID hifiGF is not there

I concur, they can ruin the audition experience as attention then get diverted elsewhere .

 

[avidyarthy]

Finally, finally it is all done!

Dillihi and Corelement had come over in the afternoon, with Core carrying his heavy CA840. The Krell was already in line and violin playback was followed up with Carpenters. Core's insight into the harmonics looked to be fairly more prominent to the rest two in the room. As per him, something somewhere was missing in the SQ.

His CA840 was put again with the Carpenters. SQ was different to the Krell's. Synergy with the speakers were'nt high. As per Core, the Krell imparted a tubey thing to the Kryptons ... his conclusion .. Krell was better matched with the TL speaker. Even with the CA there was something somewhere missing.

Close inspection of the drivers revealed that the tweeter output of the left TL speaker was way below average. This was creating the imbalance. A spate of phonecalls to Hari followed to chalk out ... what next. Hari tried his level best to explain step by step as to what we should carry out ... more than half I was'nt confident enough to carry out! Good sense prevailed and I called in my 'trusted' local audio-video repair guy (Kalam). My two compatriots had departed by then @ 4.30 PM.

Kalam got in touch with Hari (in Coimbatore) to get briefs ... opened up the defective speaker ... took out the cross-over fixed on a wooden support ... earlier he had checked the tweeter and found it ok. The tweeter board was in a bad state ... everything was hanging loose. Possibly, during transit the heavy coil (weighing 450 grms) had come off and had shorn a 3.6 ohm resistor and a 47 uF-100V bipolar capacitor. HARI ... kindly take note .. the set up for the cross-over board is not upto the mark. High quality items have been used, but basics of circuit-board finishing and robustness has not been adhered to. All this was rectified by Kalam ... the resistor edge was soldered with a wire (the leg was non-existent) and metalled on the board ... bipolar capacitor was'nt present, so he used a non-polar one ... soldered a few other loose points and redressed the speaker.

What followed after connecting back the speaker was BLISSSS ... ultimate bass, ultimate treble and midrange. The speakers are just vanishing now!

So, Hari ....... you need to thank this guy Kalam for all his assistance. Many people up North have taken his help ... be it a TT or an amp or a Tube amp or a CRT or a cassette deck ... kind of, anything electronic with a circuit board inside ...... and all have come back with praises for this 'untrained', self-educated and logical person. Hez saved you a lot of headaches!

 

[denom]

Yet again, the perils of shipping speakers EXPOSED!!!!

Your pointers w r t the mounting of components of the Xover will surely be of immense help to hari, no doubt! Pls continue to do so (hopefully) you won't find any other gremlins with the ATL's (fingers crossed!)

A learning experience for you, hari & the others, so thanks for imparting the info.
Your speakers are going to be dissected quite a bit in the future by more 'discerning' audiophiles, so hari sure will learn a thing or two more & of course the rest who want to 'learn'

Am so glad that your gamble has worked (Krell/ATL synergy)
Do keep us all posted with future updates

PS: Need to see those hi res pics, so pls take a few & post them here/mail them to me

 

[Hari Iyer]

Finally, finally it is all done!

Dillihi and Corelement had come over in the afternoon, with Core carrying his heavy CA840. The Krell was already in line and violin playback was followed up with Carpenters. Core's insight into the harmonics looked to be fairly more prominent to the rest two in the room. As per him, something somewhere was missing in the SQ.

His CA840 was put again with the Carpenters. SQ was different to the Krell's. Synergy with the speakers were'nt high. As per Core, the Krell imparted a tubey thing to the Kryptons ... his conclusion .. Krell was better matched with the TL speaker. Even with the CA there was something somewhere missing.

Close inspection of the drivers revealed that the tweeter output of the left TL speaker was way below average. This was creating the imbalance. A spate of phonecalls to Hari followed to chalk out ... what next. Hari tried his level best to explain step by step as to what we should carry out ... more than half I was'nt confident enough to carry out! Good sense prevailed and I called in my 'trusted' local audio-video repair guy (Kalam). My two compatriots had departed by then @ 4.30 PM.

Kalam got in touch with Hari (in Coimbatore) to get briefs ... opened up the defective speaker ... took out the cross-over fixed on a wooden support ... earlier he had checked the tweeter and found it ok. The tweeter board was in a bad state ... everything was hanging loose. Possibly, during transit the heavy coil (weighing 450 grms) had come off and had shorn a 3.6 ohm resistor and a 47 uF-100V bipolar capacitor. HARI ... kindly take note .. the set up for the cross-over board is not upto the mark. High quality items have been used, but basics of circuit-board finishing and robustness has not been adhered to. All this was rectified by Kalam ... the resistor edge was soldered with a wire (the leg was non-existent) and metalled on the board ... bipolar capacitor was'nt present, so he used a non-polar one ... soldered a few other loose points and redressed the speaker.

What followed after connecting back the speaker was BLISSSS ... ultimate bass, ultimate treble and midrange. The speakers are just vanishing now!

So, Hari ....... you need to thank this guy Kalam for all his assistance. Many people up North have taken his help ... be it a TT or an amp or a Tube amp or a CRT or a cassette deck ... kind of, anything electronic with a circuit board inside ...... and all have come back with praises for this 'untrained', self-educated and logical person. Hez saved you a lot of headaches!

Thanks for fixing the cross-over as per my instruction. As explained this cross-over board was meant for a lower power amplifiers and the Krell was almost 4 times that. Hence all the components ratings were higher and it did not make sense for making a new board for just a single order. That would have increased the cost significantly for you too. Hence the components could not be tied tightly to the board as there were no provisions. Due to this the heavy coil got slipped inside and in the process carried along with it the capacitor and the resistor. Thanks once again to Kalam for fixing the issue within an hour of his presence.

As mentioned i am ready to replace the entire cross-over with a new well build one but it will take me atleast 4 months and i will have to make a trip to Delhi for that. I am okay to bare the cost as my signature also says, Our Passion. Your Advantage. And i mean what I say.

Since this is our first outside Mumbai project, i never realized that transportation is so much significant and its impact even more significant. As it is said you learn by experience, i am sure none of my future customers will ever have to face this issue. I will completely take care of this issue and make a rugged and robust system. I have already started designing my circuit parameters accordingly now.

Also during the design and in the prototyping i had mentioned about various tweaks and changes that would be required for your head room levels, one of the component value is not finalized and it should take may be weeks if not months to adjust to your taste and room preferences. Please give me your feedback on this and i can incorporate the final value to your design.

So relax, enjoy the music and have no fear of support from me. If required i can even visit your home to check out things myself. Do let me know if required, as it could take me atleast a month to plan the trip due to my office commitments.

Regards,
Hari.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Yet again, the perils of shipping speakers EXPOSED!!!!

Your pointers w r t the mounting of components of the Xover will surely be of immense help to hari, no doubt! Pls continue to do so (hopefully) you won't find any other gremlins with the ATL's (fingers crossed!)

A learning experience for you, hari & the others, so thanks for imparting the info.
Your speakers are going to be dissected quite a bit in the future by more 'discerning' audiophiles, so hari sure will learn a thing or two more & of course the rest who want to 'learn'

Am so glad that your gamble has worked (Krell/ATL synergy)
Do keep us all posted with future updates

PS: Need to see those hi res pics, so pls take a few & post them here/mail them to me

Thanks Denom for your valuable inputs. I am so lucky that this happened in the very first order. Imagine if this was identified after i have shipped to 10 other customers. I am imbedded to CorElement to identify this issue immediately and bring it to Avid and my notice. This has saved perils of many other future customers i would say. I have taken a serious note of this and am already in discussion with my elder brother Vijay about this. I will now build the cross-over network for exact specifications, robustness and ruggedness. May be it will cost a little more. But who cares if the end product / outcome is outstanding. As it is said, there is always a direct relationship between effort, cost and quality and this was proved here in this project. As always all product evolve over time and so would mine and i am confident the evolution should take very soon and others would not have to wait for the gestation.

I will be building this exact replica with minor modification of the cross-over network with my other research about Harmonic balance. I have learned some new techniques about Attack, Sustain, Decay and Release of a waveform and how the envelope can be preserved for a perfect Harmonic balance. I will be applying this technique in the next cross-over design for all my future R&D efforts. Also the cross-over frequency will be modified and will be different that one used for Avid for even more better dynamics and real time life like music experience.

Check out with me later.... cheers,

 

[corElement]

Just got home, after spending the afternoon with Avid & Dillihifi at avid's place. Ty very much for that tasty lunch!

I would first like to say to Hariji, you have indeed done a very, VERY good job of implementing the veneer.

Second, the mission which you set out to accomplish has been successful.

Going by the right channel which was functioning properly as a reference point , the ATL speaker is a good match with the krell's sound signature. I know this because it is a total mismatch to my ca840a just like it was a mismatch with paradigm and b&w sound signature. I feel the ca840a sits at a very unique position of 1 notch below neutrality towards warmth but not audibly warm however warm enough to make a bad pairing with a warm speaker. The result with the atl was much too warm for satisfaction, however paired with the krell the ATL brought out considerably more airy and clear.

Suggestions for future standardized models:

Transparency- I would rate the transparency paired with the 840a around 67% and paired with the krell around 79%. Sonic data in the lower midrange and upper midrange is a little blurry. Subtle details and their tonality is being overpowered by the gain of the central core midrange. Perhaps the attempt to suppress the krell's power has lowered the headroom a little too much as certain elongated tones in the upper range are being cut short as well. For example lower tones of a piano which leave a resonance last a fraction of their duration because either the cabinet is absorbing the extended tone or the tweeter isn't being allowed to push though that low a headroom.

Balance - The center of gravity of the tower is a little off for the height it stands at. It might make sense to lower it's total height a little and take the square outer frame and adapt it inside the cabinet and use adjustable spikes for feet instead of those flat aluminium ones. It will give a stronger CG and at the same time much better aesthetics.

Quality of internal terminal wires - The Internal cables can be better, the ones I saw inside were not very high quality.

Veneer polishing and colour choice - You can achieve this kind of finish by sandpapering and polyurethane on whatever veneer you apply

-------------------



Avid's speakers are a perfect match for his amp, but if you're going to standardize these suggestions might help.

 

[anm]

glad to see things fixed. Dillihifi called me to join, unfortunately I was not able to as I am at my in-laws. Saari khudayi ek taraf....
And glad that issue got resolved. Will try for sunday noon/ evening.

 

[anm]

core - you need to hear them once more after the fixing

 

[corElement]

core - you need to hear them once more after the fixing

The right channel was functioning properly, it was a good reference point.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Thanks for the excellent review of the speakers. Really appreciate it. Will be working more on the cross-over build quality and to exact specifications in future designs.

Just got home, after spending the afternoon with Avid & Dillihifi at avid's place. Ty very much for that tasty lunch!

I would first like to say to Hariji, you have indeed done a very, VERY good job of implementing the veneer. As a designer I feel with some more effort and minor design alterations there is potential to make the design appear extremely high end and unique at the same time.

Thanks for the feedback about the veener. Yes a clear coat or a lacqure finish would have been even better. Also the veener quality is somewhere in the medium quality one due to budget constraints.

Second, the mission which you set out to accomplish has been successful.
The ATL speaker is a good match with the krell's sound signature. I know this because it is a total mismatch to my ca840a just like it was a mismatch with paradigm and b&w sound signature. I feel the ca840a sits at a very unique position of 1 notch below neutrality towards warmth but not audibly warm however warm enough to make a bad pairing with a warm speaker. The result with the atl was much too warm for satisfaction, however paired with the krell the ATL brought out considerably more airy and clear.

So it was the amplifier as mentioned by Srini. :clapping: May be after the fixing of the speaker issue late today evening, the clarity would be better with the ca840's too. May be you can take the CA once again may be next week end for one more review if possible.

Suggestions for future standardized models:

Transparency- I would rate the transparency paired with the 840a around 67% and paired with the krell around 79%. Sonic data in the lower midrange and upper midrange is a little blurry. Subtle details and their tonality is being overpowered by the gain of the central core midrange. Perhaps the attempt to suppress the krell's power has lowered the headroom a little too much as certain elongated tones in the upper range are being cut short as well. For example lower tones of a piano which leave a resonance last a fraction of their duration because either the cabinet is absorbing the extended tone or the tweeter isn't being allowed to push though that low a headroom.

May be due to one speaker cross-over functioning only as a low-pass filter even for the tweeter, the details you were looking for got missed. I would be extremely happy, if you could review this bit once again after the speaker fix for my design improvements. Also i am working on a principle of Harmonic balance in the cross-over network and the ATLs were the first speaker to have this concept introduced. The harmonic balance helps to preserve the waveform envelope by retaining the Attack, Sustain, Decay and Release characteristics of the wave envelope. May be this will need more research. Your Feedback could help here.

Balance - The center of gravity of the tower is a little off for the height it stands at. It might make sense to lower it's total height a little and take the square outer frame and adapt it inside the cabinet and use adjustable spikes for feet instead of those flat aluminium ones. It will give a stronger CG and at the same time much better aesthetics.

Fully agree on this, i wanted to go for spikes and suggested that too, but later dropped it. I would also want to lower the height by atleast 2" without compromise on the tuning frequency of the line too much.

Veneer polishing and colour choice - Take a look at speakers like dali helicons and Rethm trishna to get more inspiration

They look fabolous.:clapping:
What is your say on laminate paints as in Wilson Audio speakers?

Quality of internal terminal wires - The Internal cables can be better, the ones I saw inside were not very high quality.

They are actually high quality silver tinned copper wires. Yes their gauge can be a little better. I agree but they can handle more than 10amps of current.

Avid's speakers are a perfect match for his amp, but if you're going to standardize these suggestions might help.

Yes, the standard model will incorporate all the finishing and asthetics mentioned and also improve on the wires, PCB, cross-over components and build quality. Since this is the first major installation and reviewed and debated design and also the first time to receive so much feedback, all these will be implemented in my next design. Hoping to bank on some orders too for the motivation aspect. First i will need to work on the feedback. Will have to invest on time, money and effort for the perfect speaker that all long for.

Thanks once again for the feedback.

 

[dillihifi]

Well I would love to listen to them again. That will give me a better idea regarding the performance of the speakers. After all listening for a few minutes did give me insights into how these speakers would sound and though I have a fair impression I would like to hear them again after the fixing.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Thanks for the excellent review of the speakers. Really appreciate it. Will be working more on the cross-over build quality and to exact specifications in future designs.

Just got home, after spending the afternoon with Avid & Dillihifi at avid's place. Ty very much for that tasty lunch!

I would first like to say to Hariji, you have indeed done a very, VERY good job of implementing the veneer. As a designer I feel with some more effort and minor design alterations there is potential to make the design appear extremely high end and unique at the same time.

Thanks for the feedback about the veener. Yes a clear coat or a lacqure finish would have been even better. Also the veener quality is somewhere in the medium quality one due to budget constraints.

Second, the mission which you set out to accomplish has been successful.
The ATL speaker is a good match with the krell's sound signature. I know this because it is a total mismatch to my ca840a just like it was a mismatch with paradigm and b&w sound signature. I feel the ca840a sits at a very unique position of 1 notch below neutrality towards warmth but not audibly warm however warm enough to make a bad pairing with a warm speaker. The result with the atl was much too warm for satisfaction, however paired with the krell the ATL brought out considerably more airy and clear.

So it was the amplifier as mentioned by Srini. :clapping: May be after the fixing of the speaker issue late today evening, the clarity would be better with the ca840's too. May be you can take the CA once again may be next week end for one more review if possible.

Suggestions for future standardized models:

Transparency- I would rate the transparency paired with the 840a around 67% and paired with the krell around 79%. Sonic data in the lower midrange and upper midrange is a little blurry. Subtle details and their tonality is being overpowered by the gain of the central core midrange. Perhaps the attempt to suppress the krell's power has lowered the headroom a little too much as certain elongated tones in the upper range are being cut short as well. For example lower tones of a piano which leave a resonance last a fraction of their duration because either the cabinet is absorbing the extended tone or the tweeter isn't being allowed to push though that low a headroom.

May be due to one speaker cross-over functioning only as a low-pass filter even for the tweeter, the details you were looking for got missed. I would be extremely happy, if you could review this bit once again after the speaker fix for my design improvements. Also i am working on a principle of Harmonic balance in the cross-over network and the ATLs were the first speaker to have this concept introduced. The harmonic balance helps to preserve the waveform envelope by retaining the Attack, Sustain, Decay and Release characteristics of the wave envelope. May be this will need more research. Your Feedback could help here.
[/QUOTE]

Balance - The center of gravity of the tower is a little off for the height it stands at. It might make sense to lower it's total height a little and take the square outer frame and adapt it inside the cabinet and use adjustable spikes for feet instead of those flat aluminium ones. It will give a stronger CG and at the same time much better aesthetics.

Fully agree on this, i wanted to go for spikes and suggested that too, but later dropped it. I would also want to lower the height by atleast 2" without compromise on the tuning frequency of the line too much.

Veneer polishing and colour choice - Take a look at speakers like dali helicons and Rethm trishna to get more inspiration

They look fabolous.:clapping:
What is your say on laminate paints as in Wilson Audio speakers?

Quality of internal terminal wires - The Internal cables can be better, the ones I saw inside were not very high quality.

They are actually high quality silver tinned copper wires. Yes their gauge can be a little better. I agree but they can handle more than 10amps of current.



Yes, the standard model will incorporate all the finishing and asthetics mentioned and also improve on the wires, PCB, cross-over components and build quality. Since this is the first major installation and reviewed and debated design and also the first time to receive so much feedback, all these will be implemented in my next design. Hoping to bank on some orders too for the motivation aspect. First i will need to work on the feedback. Will have to invest on time, money and effort for the perfect speaker that all long for.

Thanks once again for the feedback.[/QUOTE]

 

[jls001]

Veneer polishing and colour choice - You can achieve this kind of finish by sandpapering and polyurethane on whatever veneer you apply

-------------------

Wow!!! That's some finishing you have there! And it looks deep. Is that a rear-firing port?

Moral of the story: go attend meets in other cities to find hidden gems

 

[Santy]

Nice experiences from so many people. Hari seem to be excited about building up his brand !

These speakers were critically tested with the sansui that's lying with me. It was too good. Should be better with the krell.

I am still waiting for the pics with the chest armour removed!


Sent from my GT-I9001 using Tapatalk 2

 

[corElement]

They look fabolous.:clapping:
What is your say on laminate paints as in Wilson Audio speakers?

My personal design preference is that speakers like guitars, ought to be high gloss regardless of paint or veneer. Otherwise it's a waste. Mind you that's a personal preference. You don't need to follow it as a hard and fast rule.

Here are some images which may inspire

 

[avidyarthy]

^ Cost of finish = cost of bare speakers .....

 

[dillihifi]

I also tend to agree with core maybe it is a personal preference for me piano gloss black anyday. Well let me also pen down some listening impressions regarding yesterday's auditions.

Sorry no photos maybe will avid will do the honours

Visual appearance, fit and finish

The speakers as may be seen in the initial posts are quite good looking. They are little tallish and have a curved top which looks nice. A 2inch square platform is at the base beneath which there are spikes (the speaker has four nos of cylindrical peices mounted on the base which are adjustable).

The veener is somewhat glossy in appearance and it is different and should look pretty good after a coat of polish and removal of the residue left behind by the packing tapes.

Listening Impressions

The pairing was simple Marantz CDP 6003 > Krell > Hari's ATL Speakers.

First Avid played back some Violin instrumentals from a CD. As the room needs some curtains to absorb the reflections. Well the sound felt like something was missing like you can say that the highs were being somewhat subdued. There was a noticeable low frequency overhang. After this we changed to CD of Carpenters - Gold to hear the vocals, it was here that we changed the amps and plugged in the CA in place of the Krell and by this time we were aware that the left tweeter had problem.

Some impressions of the speakers - they had good imaging, and nice sound stage, quite good lows well have to reserve comments on the highs as I would want to listen to them again after the fixing. Regarding the amps the Krell sounded better than the CA.

Well thanks Avid for having us at your place at such a short notice and well last but not the least the lunch was delicious.

 

[corElement]

^ Cost of finish = cost of bare speakers .....

Not necessarily , he's already got learnt to execute the rounding, all he needs to do now is experiment with paint or other veneers and polyurethane. It's a relatively simple process, with sanding down, cleaning of dust and applying polyurethane. Post rounding, the process can be done in 1 hours time if one has the tools / materials at hand and drying time. The materials just need a little reading up on. I would do it to my own towers however I'm waiting till I hear the new bookshelves before any decisions.