An Introduction to Ambiophonics

[Ambio]

Interesting discussion

Tried out this morning (with foobar) and did not like the result

Now I know why Understanding Ambiophonics

On the other hand, the usual stereo equilateral triangle speaker spread of 60 degrees will seriously degrade the sound

Now to buy a cheap protractor !

Motivation ? "Ambiophonics is much less damaged by room reflections than conventional stereo" also try karne mein kya harz hai

ciao
gr

Please don't be so nave to buy a protractor or cynical about my contribution. If you have criticism or feedback you could always share it in a positive way. And would you mind explaining which audio tracks you used to experiment the Ambiophonics? Anyone who's interested in concert hall reproduction would have tried the simple demo files without resorting to the complicated plugins.

The Foobar plugin doesn't work for most people. Usually, due to users incompetency. In a recent research conducted in NY University even the MacBook didn't work correctly. It is the fault of the MacBook and not Ambiophonics. You are cynical about it so back it up with your experience as you once asked others to do the same. Even though Ambiophonics works and improves with low budget setup but the ultimate benefit is for high end system. Unless your system is poorly setup, it should have enhanced your experience.

Once again please come clean with your experience than making a sweeping statement.

 

[Kannan]

Interesting discussion

Tried out this morning (with foobar) and did not like the result

Now I know why Understanding Ambiophonics

On the other hand, the usual stereo equilateral triangle speaker spread of 60 degrees will seriously degrade the sound

Now to buy a cheap protractor !

Motivation ? "Ambiophonics is much less damaged by room reflections than conventional stereo" also try karne mein kya harz hai

ciao
gr

Please don't be so nave to buy a protractor or cynical about my contribution. If you have criticism or feedback you could always share it in a positive way. And would you mind explaining which audio tracks you used to experiment the Ambiophonics? Anyone who's interested in concert hall reproduction would have tried the simple demo files without resorting to the complicated plugins.

The Foobar plugin doesn't work for most people. Usually, due to users incompetency. In a recent research conducted in NY University even the MacBook didn't work correctly. It is the fault of the MacBook and not Ambiophonics. You are cynical about it so back it up with your experience as you once asked others to do the same. Even though Ambiophonics works and improves with low budget setup but the ultimate benefit is for high end system. Unless your system is poorly setup, it should have enhanced your experience.

Once again please come clean with your experience than making a sweeping statement.

Hi Ambio, not everyone likes the shift from standard stereo to ambio even after perfect settings and I don't blame them for it. Everyone has a different taste, spaciousness I find is not to everyone's liking.

Actually I like both of these. At home I am mostly on ambio and in my car where too I do extensive listening I am on stereo (it is a 3-way front stage plus subwoofer, passively driven).
I have demoed my ambio setup to quite a few of my friends and relatives, some of whom are discerning listeners, though most of them liked it but only a handful really went ahead and tried it and a few completely switched over. In India at least, very few get a chance at concert hall experience with spacious sound.

 

[sound_cycle]

Please don't be so nave to buy a protractor or cynical about my contribution.
<SNIP>
Once again please come clean with your experience than making a sweeping statement.

Where did that come from ? I have a problem with my room (I have an ongoing thread and have clearly pointed out my motivation) and am trying this out, with serious intent.

My initial implementation did not work and that was because it was with an equilateral triangle arrangement.

There is no mocking or cynicism in my post.

You are ofc entirely free to assume insult and ridicule even where none exists.

ciao
gr

edit: Ok. you are excelling at my national pasttime because of the word cheap maybe ? That, was actually from the article I was reading and linked to. Pasted here "One easy way to measure speaker angle is to buy a cheap, plastic protractor and a legal-size manila folder or piece of cardboard"

 

[Ambio]

Hi Ambio, not everyone likes the shift from standard stereo to ambio even after perfect settings and I don't blame them for it. Everyone has a different taste, spaciousness I find is not to everyone's liking.

Actually I like both of these. At home I am mostly on ambio and in my car where too I do extensive listening I am on stereo (it is a 3-way front stage plus subwoofer, passively driven).
I have demoed my ambio setup to quite a few of my friends and relatives, some of whom are discerning listeners, though most of them liked it but only a handful really went ahead and tried it and a few completely switched over. In India at least, very few get a chance at concert hall experience with spacious sound.

That is perfectly understood. Setting up Ambio takes time. It is only when you get to listen to another setup then you know of your shortcomings. When setup correctly, you feel the 3D effect and which is the trade mark of concert hall sound. It got its strength and weakness. Bad recordings going to sound very different due to extreme placement but tonality wise it is still better.

I take pride to say that the last one year after perfecting the setup no one has anything negative to say of Ambiophonics. But of course, the music must be rich and well recorded but even then the system still awes playing pops.

Actually, the first step before moving to Ambiophonics is to treat your room correctly. Unfortunately, most of the audiophiles do not know how or take the trouble to measure room frequency response before moving to the next level.

I used to be a car SQ enthusiast in the 90s. Still keeping the system in my old car. Some names may not be around anymore. MBQuart speakers, Alphine CDP, Electronics Crossover some UK brand ??, 3 amplifiers; Rockford Fosgate , Orion, Alpine. And RockfordFosgate Subwoofer. It is was setup by one local automobile award winner. Nice but still way off compared to my Stereo system in 2000. Since 2000 I gave up on car audio because it will never come close to a proper home setup. But it was really fun showing off them.

 

[Ambio]

Where did that come from ? I have a problem with my room (I have an ongoing thread and have clearly pointed out my motivation) and am trying this out, with serious intent.

My initial implementation did not work and that was because it was with an equilateral triangle arrangement.

There is no mocking or cynicism in my post.

You are ofc entirely free to assume insult and ridicule even where none exists.

ciao
gr

edit: Ok. you are excelling at my national pasttime because of the word cheap maybe ? That, was actually from the article I was reading and linked to. Pasted here "One easy way to measure speaker angle is to buy a cheap, plastic protractor and a legal-size manila folder or piece of cardboard"

You made a judgment on Ambiophonics and thought it fit to share what was obviously based on an erroneous implementation. You broke the very first rule of Ambiophonics that the speakers must be closer than stereophony setup.

Speaking of cheap...sorry you cant better me there too. I use Black and Decker lawnmowers power cord taken from my neighbor dumpster as speaker cables for my rear speakers. That is really cheap, right? I also use that cable to do blind test with audiophile who could hear difference in cables for the wrong reason.

Yes, I saw your room treatment thread and that's my favorite topic.

 

[sound_cycle]

You made a judgment on Ambiophonics and thought it fit to share what was obviously based on an erroneous implementation.<snip>
Yes, I saw your room treatment thread and that's my favorite topic.

Nope. No judgement passed.

This thread territoriality is getting rather boring and tedious and pointless and I am out of here. It might have been easy/ worthwhile figuring out with an obvious expert but that is only one of many ways.

By the way you missed the self mocking and self realization of error in implementation in your headlong rush to take offense.

Thanks anyway for starting the thread

ciao
gr

 

[Ambio]

Nope. No judgement passed.

This thread territoriality is getting rather boring and tedious and pointless and I am out of here. It might have been easy/ worthwhile figuring out with an obvious expert but that is only one of many ways.

By the way you missed the self mocking and self realization of error in implementation in your headlong rush to take offense.

Thanks anyway for starting the thread

ciao
gr

Ask yourself what is the point of you saying something like " I didn't follow the procedure. But anyway I didn't like the result". It is not helpful to you nor to anyone who would want to experience it. You are chasing away audiophiles from experimenting. Remember the old saying " if you don't have something nice to say don't say it at all".

There are other members here who didn't get the intended result but did not have your attitude. Nor you showed the courtesy to the OP.

As an example, you could have asked "does the speakers angle matter?". But you came in like an expert and blurted nonsensical opinion based on self ignorance.

Self mocking? Here you go again. I saw your other thread and your room and realized rather late that I should have had ignored your troll in the first place.

 

[sound_cycle]

But you came in like an expert and blurted nonsensical opinion based on self ignorance.

You have ***serious*** comprehension/ other issues.

Welcome to my ignore list

 

[Ambio]

You have ***serious*** comprehension/ other issues.

Welcome to my ignore list

Still here?

Just admit it you were trolling. If you had tried it this morning for whatever reason using Foobar instead of the browser but later realised you didn't move the speakers. if that is true then the first thing any reasonable man not having comprehension/other issues would have moved the speakers and tried again. You wouldn't have rushed to post your "feedback" which shows your serious trouble of understanding the thread and meaningless unless you enjoy self mocking which again shows someone with serious issues.

 

[keith_correa]

Not my circus, not my monkeys but guys, please stop. There is absolutely no need to fly off the handle - especially at little/no provocation.

 

[rikhav]

I intended to try ambiophonics since the thread started
But I never got time and since it involved many settings and calculations I was not eager as I am not good with it

But everyone is told to keep an open mind and try anything new and check if it works for them

Tried with burning demo tracks and made an audio cd, randomly reduced the distance between speakers to about 1.5 to 2 ft and played.
I could not make out much of a difference. This was mainly because I dont have a golden ear and whatever I was listening to had never listened before. So there was no reference point.

Then I thought of trying with pc using foobar and ambio plugins
Keith helped me with the settings. I used tv and laptop speakers for outputting the sound but again result was very bad.

Then I thought of using the neutrron player for samsung phones and using it as source. Could not use my pre and power amp as my pre has no gain, so output from phone was very low
So thought of using my 20 year old sony mini component shstem as amp, some cheap interconect and speakers and speakers from my main system.
Randomly reduced space between speakers by another 5 inches ans sat about 6 ft away from speakers

Result was jaw dropping considering what cable, source and am amp I was using
Stage had a huge depth, I could hear details in the lower mids, mids and highs like I have never heard in my main setup.
They were on a cruder side but it may be due to what all I was ising in the chain
Vocals has some unusual presence but I could make out differences in recording enviornment

Only thing which I had felt had not improved was stage width.
But I have not yet changed any settings and kept it at default
Maybe changing them can bring about any changes

This is what I have experienced.
I am not a proper audiophile who matches his system to the limit and can hear differences with cables very easily.
Moreover my main system is very basic and not super resolving

 

[Ambio]

Old Sony Amp

...So thought of using my 20 year old sony mini component shstem as amp, some cheap interconect and speakers and speakers from my main system....
Result was jaw dropping considering what cable, source and am amp I was using
Stage had a huge depth, I could hear details in the lower mids, mids and highs like I have never heard in my main setup. ..

Interesting that you say, a 20 year old mini component system outclassed your main setup. The truth is whatever improvement that you get from your stereo system is relative. No cables or amplifiers can retrieve any further improvement from the recordings with stereo setup. You need a new technology to do that.

I am not saying amps or cables wouldn't make a difference but the difference is so insignificant that you wouldn't able to reliably tell under blind test. True difference is the ability to tell the difference without side by side comparison. A person can say amp A is better but once it is level matched to another amp you would not be able to tell the difference.

If you look at Stereophiles review since the 90s, one of the most used phrase was "the best sound I have heard so far". Now we are in 2014 and still we are seeing the same phrase. Logical?

Glad you liked Ambiophonics and wish you success in further improvement. Room acoustics, speakers and a reliable amplifier matching your speakers power requirement are all you need for a great sound under Ambiophonics.

Enjoy!...and keep us posted.

 

[keith_correa]

Only thing which I had felt had not improved was stage width.

Strange that. The first thing that comes to mind when I listen thru the laptop speakers via Ambio is - "WIDE SOUNDSTAGE!!" - relatively speaking of course.

Moreover my main system is very basic and not super resolving

Yeah, right!!

 

[rikhav]

I tried some few other recordings, specially live and yeah there is a difference in the width of soundstage
In some tracks it extends right up till the boundaries of the wall.
Changing the settings and fine tuning will help but I need lot of time to sit and evaluate and I cant be a good judge when fine tuning things. Somehow I cant make out much of a difference while doing A and B and get more confused, so all that maybe in future when I have got a holiday

So as of now ambiophonics works for me. I have heard setups which do very well with the presentation but then all know how much cost we have take into factor to buy real hi end amp, speakers, source.

But a better amp, source and cables will contribute to the end result IMO

Right now with phone as a source, mids don't have that weight, highs are not that smooth but these are just minor things which one knows will change for good when a proper amp, source and some decent cables are used just like how treating the room will help improve the sound

So in the end not all may like what they hear from ambiophonics, personal preferences matter. But I feel its a very good tech to upgrade your existing setup to something which sounds much better

I will try to lay my hands on a miniambio but not sure when it will happen

 

[Kannan]

So in the end not all may like what they hear from ambiophonics, personal preferences matter. But I feel its a very good tech to upgrade your existing setup to something which sounds much better
I will try to lay my hands on a miniambio but not sure when it will happen

I am very happy with both foobar and winamp as my main source is my laptop. I just purchased a PCM2704 chip based USB to toslink/coaxial converter for Rs. 900 from ebay and it can pass upto CD quality rips and it works like a charm. I have connected its digital (toslink) output to my yamaha RXV-671 receiver which has an excellent DAC and most of my source files are either mp3/wav or flac.
The receiver has a pure direct mode which bypasses all its internal DSP's and equalizers.
The converter is placed close to the receiver and is connected to my laptop with a 10-foot USB extension cable.

 

[Ambio]

......Right now with phone as a source, mids don't have that weight, highs are not that smooth but these are just minor things which one knows will change for good when a proper amp, source and some decent cables are used just like how treating the room will help improve the sound
.....

I used to use a Onkyo transport Dock to play my iPhone and iPad. Not sure if they have a similar dock for Samsung phones but that should give you the matching output gain for consumer audio equipment which is usually about 2V.

 

[rikhav]

I used to use a Onkyo transport Dock to play my iPhone and iPad. Not sure if they have a similar dock for Samsung phones but that should give you the matching output gain for consumer audio equipment which is usually about 2V.

Will check out if there are any

 

[keith_correa]

Like Rikhav, I tried this today through JRiver with the Ambio DSP and my oooooold JVC mini component system with the el-cheapo [but decent sounding] JVC speakers. Played some Sabbath & Marley. Bob & Ozzy were performing for me in the room. For free

What I find cool is that at the sweet spot, rolling your head, turning your head sideways or whichever contortion you can manage, doesn't change anything. Amazing!

I was wondering - if the definition of an audiophile and his/her quest is to reach the grail of in-room performance - isn't this it??? No fancy equipment. Just some fiddling with settings.

Note to people who are trying this: Changing settings for experimentation results in quite radical changes so please let your ears adjust to those changes before you pass judgement on the effect of the changes you make.

 

[keith_correa]

So, I compared the Ambio DSP's between Foobar & JRiver. Night and Day difference. To my ears, Day = JRiver's DSP.

Rikhav - you have to try it!

 

[Kannan]

So, I compared the Ambio DSP's between Foobar & JRiver. Night and Day difference. To my ears, Day = JRiver's DSP.

Rikhav - you have to try it!

Never tried JRiver, will give it a go.

Thanks
Kannan