Are CD Player still relevant?

[dheerajin]

This is the case of bad mastering and being used against computer audio as a whole. Let's say I get a badly mastered CD. Can I draw a conclusion based on that all the CD players are bad? We can't use bad music data to begin with and call a system is bad. Garbage in/garbage out.

I don't use computer audio, I use a disc player and media player but still think the above example is a bad idea to draw a conclusion.

people are taking things personally, so its our discretionary power to avoid such things in near future. This forum is full of people like this...when we tell about science they tell about illogical perspective ..and most of all full of sh*** things...and I am avoiding discussion with them ..ultimately *** they enjoy in wrestling in mud..we are there to spoil our clothes..
so its better to avoid talk

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Why would you choose MP3s for such a test? WAV... please.

And if there is a big difference, don't throw the PC out, buy a decent interface or DAC.

And yes, CD players are still relevant ...anyway

 

[jls001]

Then listen to the same songs burned into the cd as audio cd.

If you want to burn an mp3 as an audio CD, then you first have to convert the mp3 to wav.

So assuming one converts a CD track to mp3, it must be re-converted back to wav for burning to CD as audio CD.

 

[asliarun]

If you go by the assumption that audiophiles want the best possible sound (in a given budget range) - then the best possible sound comes from the best possible technology. All other solutions should be rejected.

A CD player
1. Reads digital audio bitstream from a spinning optical disc
2. Decodes the digital audio bitstream
3. Loads it into RAM
4. Does error correction
5. Sends the digital audio bitstream into the inbuilt DAC (or to an external DAC when used as a pure transport)

Any other digital playback device including a PC does the exact same thing except for Step 1 - where it reads from a spinning magnetic device (faster, superior, less error prone, no scratches) or from a solid state memory store (even faster, even more reliable).

So by definition, all other playback solutions are significantly superior to a CD player.

One would imagine that a hobby group that wants the best possible sound would instantly reject such a technically backward solution that involves scratch prone mechanically spinning polycarbonate discs.

But the reality is different. And I always scratch my head as to why that is. Serious - I am not trying to be snark or anything. I am genuinely puzzled.

For audiophiles, CD players and CDs should NOT be relevant at all. They should only be mildly relevant if there is a huge existing monetary investment.

But for a group that obsesses about bitrate, bit depth, exotic DAC chips, cryo mods, etc. to get the last bit of audio performance - it is completely illogical to even talk about CD players in the same breath.

 

[sarith]

The next thing you will do is kick your pc out.

Nope, I won't

 

[asliarun]

To clarify, I meant that the CD transport mechanism is no longer relevant.
The DAC and power supply portions of a CD player are still relevant.

So it may very well be (and probably is) that high end CD players over-engineer these sections to compensate for the limitations of their transport mechanism, and you end up with a CD player sounding better than many PC + DAC solutions. However, the CD part of the CD player had nothing to do with that.

 

[mpw]

if that were the case why is vinyl so loved ?

it spins too... and to make it worse it endures a needle scratching on the disc all the time ...

just like an evolutionary process.. technology is moving from capturing data on the fly ( vinyl / tape / cd ) to only processing stored data ( hard disc / playlist etc... ) and in our obsession with high tech dacs / cables and what not.... somewhere in the digital chain... the joy is not getting captured in the data, amplified in the amp and transferred to the speaker ( if i could express it so ).

There is no scientific explanation for this ( that i know of ) but it could explain why people like me prefer vinyl above all... then the CDP .... then digital...

but thats just me... and i am getting on.... maybe

YMMV..

mpw

 

[msaab90]

CD's still account for more than 80% of music sales in Japan, and 17% in the U.S. Few top artists are not giving rights for digital streaming services. So all in all this format might see a resurgence, and certainly no quick death.

 

[hemantwaghe]

CD's still account for more than 80% of music sales in Japan, and 17% in the U.S. Few top artists are not giving rights for digital streaming services. So all in all this format might see a resurgence, and certainly no quick death.

17 %

PLEASE CAN I HAVE SOURCE OF YOUR DATA ?

After a net search I got

Digital Music Sales Decrease For First Time in 2013 | Billboard

and CD vs Digital ( For albums only

CD Album Sales Fall Behind Album Downloads, Is 2014 The Year Digital Takes Over? | Billboard

A 2 year old report

Music Sales In 2012 Prove Digital Is Rising, CDs Are Dead And ... Vinyl Is Alive Once Again?


Now anyone has unit adjested figures of Downloads vs CD's Vs Vinyl ??

Again I think CD sale is DECLINING but not as low as 17 % .. or maybe - but need to see treports

So data pls

In God we trust; all others must bring data.

W. Edwards Deming

 

[asliarun]

if that were the case why is vinyl so loved ?

it spins too... and to make it worse it endures a needle scratching on the disc all the time ...

just like an evolutionary process.. technology is moving from capturing data on the fly ( vinyl / tape / cd ) to only processing stored data ( hard disc / playlist etc... ) and in our obsession with high tech dacs / cables and what not.... somewhere in the digital chain... the joy is not getting captured in the data, amplified in the amp and transferred to the speaker ( if i could express it so ).

There is no scientific explanation for this ( that i know of ) but it could explain why people like me prefer vinyl above all... then the CDP .... then digital...

but thats just me... and i am getting on.... maybe

YMMV..

mpw

No sir, vinyl audio reproduction is dramatically different. It is not even digital to begin with, and there is no DAC section at all. In many ways, it is THE audiophile solution. Or other high bandwidth analog solutions like tape reel that is used in studios, and that some rare people also used to own. Personally, I too believe in musical purity, tonality, etc. Even if the tradeoff means additional noise. Our ears are really good at ignoring a lot of noise as it is.

My comments were purely about digital. If you want to do justice to digital, you have to throw away those spinning discs. You might as well use floppy drives to store your music.

Now, if you want to transfer the romance of vinyl into CDs (which until people used to hate for being sterile) , that may be so, but it has nothing to do with audio quality, musicality, tonality, or anything to do with music. Honestly, I still respect that - after all creating the right "mahaul" greatly improves music enjoyability, but a bunch of other things can give even note mileage on that fronts. Glowing tubes for example. Or nice mellow lighting. Or a nice drink. Or good company. Or all of the above

 

[deba]

...digital carrier formats will die a slow death as more and more content will become downloadable (legal & illegal) in future.......

 

[arj]

No sir, vinyl audio reproduction is dramatically different. It is not even digital to begin with, and there is no DAC section at all. In many ways, it is THE audiophile solution. Or other high bandwidth analog solutions like tape reel that is used in studios, and that some rare people also used to own. Personally, I too believe in musical purity, tonality, etc. Even if the tradeoff means additional noise. Our ears are really good at ignoring a lot of noise as it is.

My comments were purely about digital. If you want to do justice to digital, you have to throw away those spinning discs. You might as well use floppy drives to store your music.

Now, if you want to transfer the romance of vinyl into CDs (which until people used to hate for being sterile) , that may be so, but it has nothing to do with audio quality, musicality, tonality, or anything to do with music. Honestly, I still respect that - after all creating the right "mahaul" greatly improves music enjoyability, but a bunch of other things can give even note mileage on that fronts. Glowing tubes for example. Or nice mellow lighting. Or a nice drink. Or good company. Or all of the above

vinyl could also get a Shot in the arm due to 3D printing. Imagine being able to "print an Vinyl" out of a High rez download although it is still "Niche" For those who already have a good Turntable setup and prefer it over the other, it could make the cd player the distant 2nd choice as CD-Rs do degrade over time..and when the cd player dies it may very well be buried.

Computer audio on the other hand is only going to get better and more popular

 

[hydra]

As somebody who uses both a dedicated Music PC and a CDP as a transport, I think a CDP is relevant enough. But, to me, the relevance of the CDP is mostly one of convenience -- the ability to play a CD without switching on the PC, and as a just-in-case backup.

One observation I had about the discussion here is that there are arguments about:

1) Whether a CDP sounds better than a PC, and
2) Whether a CDP is more/less convenient to use than a PC, and
3) Whether the CD format is relevant enough any more, for people to consider buying CDPs.

These, I think are three different things. And overall, they come down to whether people prefer a certain playback mode, or whether the prefer a certain music distribution format.

The first and the second questions are fairly intertwined and have to do mostly with a person's subjective preference. There will always be enough people who prefer a CD's sound over a PC's, and who prefer the convenience and the experience of using a CDP over a PC.

The third question is generally not relevant to people who prefer a CDP when asked the first two questions. They will keep buying CDs as long as they are available if they prefer using a CDP. This is borne out by the fact that people continued to use and enjoy vinyl long after cassettes and then CDs became the standard.

Downloadable music can be considered a "standard", but then most of the 16/44.1 music is available as CDs. Only HiRes can really be considered a "new" standard, which requires a PC/Streamer to be played. CDPs can't play HiRes, so they are not "relevant" to HiRes.

Personally, I would answer the three questions as follows:
1) No. My PC sounds better to me.
2) Yes, and No. I prefer both modes, depending on the time I'm playing music, and for how long I'll be playing music. Very short sessions = CDP. Meduim to Long sessions = MusicPC.
3) Yes, it is relevant enough. And I will continue buying (and ripping to my HDD) CDs as long as they are well recorded, available at a reasonable outlay, and available to buy without too much trouble.

I find myself shifting more and more to a MusicPC because of the ease at which I can access all my music and the ease of storing (and backing up) all my music, because my PC sounds better to me, because I can myself continue (hopefully) to make it sound better, and because making the PC sound better is a very interesting, entertaining and rewarding exercise, separate from enjoying the music it plays.

As I continue to put more money and effort into making the PC better, I do wonder if keeping a CDP on (or even thinking of getting a new, better one) makes any sense at all. Even now, to me, my PC sounds far better than the CDP does, and I have more planned for the PC in the future. I will probably retain the CDP for convenience and for the sake of keeping one on for the future, that's all. But if I find that I'm using the CDP lesser and lesser, and if I need the space in the rack, I will definitely put the CDP up for sale. Also, if I didn't have a CDP now at this point of time, I wouldn't think of getting one at all.

All this said, I can appreciate why people with large CD collections (I"m not one of them) would like to get/keep a good CDP. I know how convenient and simple it is to use one, and that is why I did get an entry level CDP for myself in the first place, even though I don't have many CDs with me.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

just like an evolutionary process.. technology is moving from capturing data on the fly ( vinyl / tape / cd ) to only processing stored data ( hard disc / playlist etc... ) and in our obsession with high tech dacs / cables and what not.... somewhere in the digital chain... the joy is not getting captured in the data, amplified in the amp and transferred to the speaker ( if i could express it so ).

I don't understand your distinction. It is all data storage: even an LP is data storage. There is no on-the-fly difference, either at the recording or the playback stages.

Computer audio on the other hand is only going to get better and more popular

Not only more popular, it is going to take over. I have no idea how long it will take (CDs will remain relevant to a lot of CD-playing people, long past the day on which the last one is sold) but it will take over as the main digital source, if it hasn't already, very soon.

For those who continue to hate the "PC", and for the hifi companies struggling to keep their component market, media players will replace the CD player. What's a media player? Don't tell anybody, but it is a computer pretending not to be a computer

I predict though, that, of course, the niche market for vinyl will continue, but there will never be a "CD resurgence." There is no need for it. As a physical medium, despite its rainbow colours, it never won our love like vinyl did: it was never an emotionally engaging thing.

PC audio will get better?

There are different aspects to that...

One is that it has been just fine for ages: at least ten years. Audiophile fuss will increase, but that is not the same as getting better.

In some ways, according to me, it's currently worse. I had fewer problems with PC sound ten years ago than I do now.

The CD player reliably sounds the same every time I turn it on (or it would if it worked ). My PC does not. I can understand why someone, faced with situation, would prefer the CD player.

Audio is a low priority for the hardware and software developers of PCs. They (obviously ) do not care if DPC latency actually renders the motherboard useless for audio. They probably don't even test for it.

Audiophiles are now concentrating on PCs and trying to transfer stuff that might be appropriate to amplifiers to them. Some of the cable arguments that PC-audio has given rise to should not even have been thought of: they are completely inappropriate to the technology. This is not an improvement, but will certainly continue, because sales and money will drive it. DACs will be on the market that cost ten times the price of anything that the sound went through in the recording studio, and that is not an improvement either.

But, one way or another, the computer is the future for playing audio. Leaving the CD Player still relevant to those who prefer to play their CDs. Even if they can't buy any new ones.

 

[cyber_cat]

IMO, CD players were relevant when hard disk prices were high -> matt komorowski - a history of storage cost.

Manufacturers had already separated there DAC section long back remember, LHH-1000.

Imagine storing your CDs in 1980 in your computer :lol:.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

But in pcs, most guys store in mp3 format ...

Music as mass consumption, yes. But that is not what most people on this forum are about.

to get the cd played in cd player quality, you will have to buy very very expensive DAC.

Not true. Why should it be? The CD PLayer contains... a DAC.

My third or fourth soundcard (the progression was quick until I reached this one) put shame my CD player, over a decade ago. It was a Cyrus CD player: not cheap. It was an RME soundcard, also not cheap, but nowhere near "very, very expensive."

I'll admit that I can imagine paying up to about US$2,000 for an audio interface or DAC. That means I probably would if I could, but almost certainly never will.

 

[musicbee]

Music as mass consumption, yes. But that is not what most people on this forum are about.

We are a dying generation... seriously. And pretty certain its a moot discussion at best.

The PC too is slowly dying, its not the replacement for vinyl or CD.

Its all going to be streaming services and in the cloud music... at low bitrates and played on mobile devices i.e. smartphones.

Ah well... at least I grew up on Stevie Nicks, Fleetwood Mac and Tom Petty.

 

[asliarun]

We are a dying generation... seriously. And pretty certain its a moot discussion at best.

The PC too is slowly dying, its not the replacement for vinyl or CD.

Its all going to be streaming services and in the cloud music... at low bitrates and played on mobile devices i.e. smartphones.

Ah well... at least I grew up on Stevie Nicks, Fleetwood Mac and Tom Petty.

I met a new 21 year old colleague who has just joined my company. I noticed he was listening to music on grado headphones so I asked him about it. He was super thrilled that I even asked him about his headphones and insisted that I at least listen to flac or high bitrate mp3 if I borrow his headphones.

My nephew is in college in the US and just bought a pair of decent sennheishers and an amp. Roughly 1 out of 5 young programmers in my office have decent headphones that I would consider as entry level high fidelity.

Not sure if the hobby and pursuit of high fidelity audio is dying. Probably changing form significantly. And at their price point - headphones just walk all over a regular setup. Their only drawback is that headphones are not for social listening or for creating an atmosphere.

And as far as quality recording is concerned, I do see that even among the really young crowd. BUT, only among those who have already taken the pains to research and buy a decent quality headphone setup.

 

[musicbee]

I met a new 21 year old colleague who has just joined my company. I noticed he was listening to music on grado headphones so I asked him about it. He was super thrilled that I even asked him about his headphones and insisted that I at least listen to flac or high bitrate mp3 if I borrow his headphones.

My nephew is in college in the US and just bought a pair of decent sennheishers and an amp. Roughly 1 out of 5 young programmers in my office have decent headphones that I would consider as entry level high fidelity.

Not sure if the hobby and pursuit of high fidelity audio is dying. Probably changing form significantly. And at their price point - headphones just walk all over a regular setup. Their only drawback is that headphones are not for social listening or for creating an atmosphere.

And as far as quality recording is concerned, I do see that even among the really young crowd. BUT, only among those who have already taken the pains to research and buy a decent quality headphone setup.

That is indeed heartening to hear... there are young folks who still love music and are willing to spend on it.

That said my observation is spot on too... PC sales are down, even tablets are not selling, its only the smartphones that are taking over the world. Today, people watch YouTube, movies, etc. on a smartphone and that's true even for music consumption. Heck, smartphones are going to be the dominant gaming platform over consoles by 2015. Nokia sold the most number of cameras in the world a few years back, now its probably Samsung.

All of my younger cousins (in their teens and early 20s) only browse the internet on a smartphone, ditto for Facebook, Twitter, etc. They don't know what it is to have a traditional PC or to use a keyboard and mouse to browse the net, forget using one to listen to music.

Sure there will always be exceptions, in today's digital world we have folks who love vinyl and swear by it.

But all said and done we are a dying generation. Smartphones and portable devices are going to be the primary forms of media and music consumption, ditto for gaming, photography, communication, blogging, and pretty much everything.

Its the 2% that want to argue about vinyl vs. CD, CD vs. PC, etc. The rest of the world has moved on and I don't envy them... not when they have Justin Bieber for music.

Ah... at least I hope I will teach my kids better. Probably not, but hopefully yes.

 

[Kannan]

With storage mediums getting cheaper and technology going towards a unified platform which is shrinking by the hour, dissipation of media (audio and video) too is following the route from a Vinyl to cassette to digital disks to Hard Disk to flash drives to remote storage.
The same is happening with books which is moving on from a physical storage to a digital storage.