Audiophile Myths Part 1: MP3 VS FLAC, Cables, Sample Rates, Tube Amps, ETC.

[sidvee]

However I know that Viren is sincere.
Whether we may appreciate his work or not it was unfair to make an oblique reference to his work.

There are so many Artisan/Independent Audio equipment manufacturers around the world, who altruistically use their experience, knowledge, skill etc. to promote this hobby and produce better quality sound/equipment. As a community who loves this hobby we need to encourage them, rather than hold them to so called high end scientific/statistical lines in the sand, which are meaningless in the end IMO. In doing so we are doing a disservice to them and the whole hi-fi community.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[tcpip]

There are so many Artisan/Independent Audio equipment manufacturers around the world, who altruistically use their experience, knowledge, skill etc. to promote this hobby and produce better quality sound/equipment. As a community who loves this hobby we need to encourage them, rather than hold them to so called high end scientific/statistical lines in the sand, which are meaningless in the end IMO. In doing so we are doing a disservice to them and the whole hi-fi community.

I may have missed something you noticed, but I did not see anyone "holding anyone to" any third-party standard. Therefore I am not quite sure what you're referring to. If some artisan or independent manufacturer wants to do DBT to compare two systems, it's up to him. Similarly, he's free to not use DBT too. Is anyone here saying that such freedom should be restricted?

However, what is very clear from your posts is that you, personally, find DBT to be "meaningless". Can you share some case studies or other material which will help some of us understand why?

 

[sidvee]

I guess the question of whether it has been shown to resolve anything or not depends on who you ask. A lot of brilliant engineers and designers seem to have used blind testing to put a lot of questions at rest for their own purposes. It seems to have resolved a lot of questions for them.

Honestly at-least the way I go about this hobby, I do not ask anybody. I rely on my listening. That is what matters to me. Not a DBT or some other scientific fact, what does the equipment sound like? - not to some brilliant designer/golden ear audiophile, but to me, the end customer who will underwrite his designs. And I usually vote with my wallet.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[sidvee]

I may have missed something you noticed, but I did not see anyone "holding anyone to" any third-party standard. Therefore I am not quite sure what you're referring to. If some artisan or independent manufacturer wants to do DBT to compare two systems, it's up to him. Similarly, he's free to not use DBT too. Is anyone here saying that such freedom should be restricted?

However, what is very clear from your posts is that you, personally, find DBT to be "meaningless". Can you share some case studies or other material which will help some of us understand why?

I choose not to provide any case studies for that. Am I allowed that freedom as are the Artisan manufacturers above?
I guess I am. Thanks.

 

[tcpip]

Honestly at-least the way I go about this hobby, I do not ask anybody. I rely on my listening. That is what matters to me. Not a DBT or some other scientific fact, what does the equipment sound like? - not to some brilliant designer/golden ear audiophile, but to me, the end customer who will underwrite his designs.

Good for you. And no one's arguing with you about any of this. But I was hoping that you could shed some light on why you find DBT meaningless. It may help some of us who are curious to learn about the effectiveness of DBT. Hope this does not conflict with the way you go about your hobby?

 

[sidvee]

Good for you. And no one's arguing with you about any of this. But I was hoping that you could shed some light on why you find DBT meaningless. It may help some of us who are curious to learn about the effectiveness of DBT. Hope this does not conflict with the way you go about your hobby?

@ tcpip, all my posts about DBT in audio equipment are irrelevant, erroneous and misguided, because I am just a novice in this field. There are so many experts here that I am humbled and not worthy. Let us leave it at that, even if I post it will be stuff I believe in which does not matter to anybody and is probably wrong. Yes if any reader/FM can perform DBT etc. on equipment before buying, please do so. Kindly PM me if you want to discuss further outside of this thread, if not, does not matter. I will not post further on this.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[keith_correa]

That went to hell in a hurry, didn't it? Gives new meaning to "rushing to ones defence". When there was nothing to defend. Because, IMO, there was no offence given or intended. Just perceived. Sheesh!!

 

[sidvee]

That went to hell in a hurry, didn't it? Gives new meaning to "rushing to ones defence". When there was nothing to defend. Because, IMO, there was no offence given or intended. Just perceived. Sheesh!!

I don't think it went anywhere, and I believe we were defending our own POV, which is worth defending.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[anilva]

Moderation:

Please stop making this thread sarcastic and personal. Each one has a POV and let us leave it at that.

The thread might be closed.

Cheers.

 

[Kushanava]

Hello Guys!! Very interesting discussion!!!
Good is what is perceived by human nature!!It may sound philosophical but thats what it is. Yes, there is some kind of generalizations of good based on mass liking or may be magazine liking and you end up with audiophile products. These products can queue up in your search or dream lists, but the variations of such products are so huge that you almost start personalizing them. The other beautiful or bad (however you want to take it) thing about this hobby is, good evolves with time and in stages. I have always felt that the individual listener is biased in his own way of listening and always evaluates a product based on that. For a person who has lesser experience in audio (like me) doesnt know what to expect till he first buys a product. Listening to that gives him the knowledge to assess his own likes and dislikes and he becomes more equipped for his next purchase. What I am trying to tell here, in AB comparisons or DBT in a short period of evaluation can eliminate bad from good, but maynt be able to eliminate better vs best. That can only be done by yourself, when you own the product and you start listening to it and you know that you love the Music that it makes. It makes you love the music so much, that you almost stop hearing the product!!

 

[hydra]

Honestly at-least the way I go about this hobby, I do not ask anybody. I rely on my listening. That is what matters to me. Not a DBT or some other scientific fact, what does the equipment sound like? - not to some brilliant designer/golden ear audiophile, but to me, the end customer who will underwrite his designs. And I usually vote with my wallet.
Cheers,
Sid

I think this is all that matters!

Any kind of multi-person testing, DBT or otherwise, may or may not be relevant to a manufacturer in the design phase, but when it comes to a finished product in the market, I think what matters is what the final buyer prefers.

Another aspect is that, typically manufacturers and designers design an audio component to have a very specific sound. Not everybody designs them to sound ruler-flat, unless they are manufacturing monitors (intended to sound as neutral and flat as possible). When such a "house sound" is being engineered, I think it is as 50-50 thing that it will be considered to "sound better" than component B by everyone, or even the majority of a DBT sample. The results of a DBT between two products designed to "house sounds" would only reflect the overall taste for a certain type of sound within a sample.

Any test on finished products would be with the intention of making some product appear to be inferior or superior to another. This intention, IMHO, causes inherent bias in the test, but of course, the bias may not be the same in all the respondents.

I have a genuine question about DBT. This is not intended to be a snarky question or response.

Will a DBT give exactly the same results if repeated under the same conditions? Will all the respondents give exactly the same responses as before for the repeated test? If such an identical result is not obtained, are the results of a DBT scientifically valid?

In my mind (I'm open to being corrected) it is impossible to replicate test conditions, because any DBT conditions can never be replicated. Especially because the test is inherently such that an ideally controlled test condition cannot exist.

 

[Nikhil]

I have a genuine question about DBT. This is not intended to be a snarky question or response.

Will a DBT give exactly the same results if repeated under the same conditions? Will all the respondents give exactly the same responses as before for the repeated test? If such an identical result is not obtained, are the results of a DBT scientifically valid?

Hydra, that is the next level of testing. After an initial DBT is undertaken the gold standard is to have multiple / multi location tests taken to see if there is a correlation in the results. The drug & pharma industry are the big users of these methods.

The answer to your question depends on what you are testing. If its something trivial then an identical result is possible. Usually results can at best only be expressed as conclusions based on trends with a confidence value. The more tests you conduct the better the confidence value.

 

[Nikhil]

My posts were about listener expectancy and the need for blind testing -- they were not about a person. I am sorry that you seem to believe they were about a person. And everything I have heard about Viren's work has been positive. Therefore, while I continue to ask what's wrong with blind testing, I really fail to see why a reference to an incident, without naming any person, entirely in passing, should be treated as "unfair oblique reference".

To answer your question in one word: Context

It makes sense to use the rigor and discipline of DBT when one is talking about Big Pharma, Engineering, Quantum Physics etc where the game is at that level of payoff (Millions of Dollars, Life and Death scenarios, etc).

You could use DBT for audio but the costs of implementing a test without bias would be beyond what the audio industry can afford/comprehend.
I am pretty sure this is where Sid is coming from.

 

[square_wave]

I have a genuine question about DBT. This is not intended to be a snarky question or response.

Will a DBT give exactly the same results if repeated under the same conditions? Will all the respondents give exactly the same responses as before for the repeated test? .

No it will not - most of the time.

Finally it all boils down to peoples mindset and what works for them.

At a personal level, I go with results which my ear / brain can comprehend and appreciate.

One important thing that made an impact on my mindset was the realization that almost all the worthwhile music systems that I have heard ( the ones that has a profound impact the ones that really create the magic ) all had owners that were not subscribers to DBT.

My observation is based solely on 2 channel systems. Your observation may vary.