Believe Windows audio sucks? Think again.

There is an option of ignoring and holding yourself back from commenting if you don't find any thread useful.. Doesn't necessarily need to make sense to everyone... Do exercise your rights..
Panditji,

The thread offers No Public Domain Info to forum participants.
Seems like school boys giggling in the dark.
As RSJURR said "This much chat they should have done in their WhatsApp group instead of wasting a few KB of space .;)"

One ignores a Thread if the topic is not of Interest.

What I am pointing out is something Far More fundamental .... There was NOTHING In this thread for the forum public. THAT is what I am posting about ....

If Discretion should be exercised, it should have been in starting a thread where no info is being tabled.
 
Panditji,

The thread offers No Public Domain Info to forum participants.
Seems like school boys giggling in the dark.
As RSJURR said "This much chat they should have done in their WhatsApp group instead of wasting a few KB of space .;)"

One ignores a Thread if the topic is not of Interest.

What I am pointing out is something Far More fundamental .... There was NOTHING In this thread for the forum public. THAT is what I am posting about ....

If Discretion should be exercised, it should have been in starting a thread where no info is being tabled.
You still have all the rights to ignore such a thread and read something that is of interest to you. Let everyone judge themselves and let the thread take its own natural course.

If we had a whatsapp group we would have posted and giggled there but I dont know anyone personally who posted on this thread.. There are lots of threads which I find silly without any information but we all let them be.. Since it is a public forum, let the public decide to let a thread continue or not.. Why bother especially if something doesn't interest you?? Let others giggle and be happy unless you are feeling left out... Also neither mine or your comments add any information and we are simply arguing which is also a waste but then it's a public forum and we both are entitled to our views whether there are informational or not for others...
 
So let the thread take its own course then If it has already not taken that.:)

My point is that if any person who can make Windows sing much better wants to remain anonymous (and we should respect that) why discuss in a public forum.
I have built a computer audio transport with apl4 which is an Arch Linux based OS. But it did not recognize PCIe to USB sound card and Gustard DDC. So I have become interested in Window-based OS coz both of these are recognized by my desktop. Looking at the thread I came running to find some useful info by FMs.
Threads can never be useful to all the readers but at least should make some sense is what is my humble opinion.
 
Looking at the thread I came running to find some useful info by FMs.

Feel free to try out the optimizer software (AO) I'd linked to in an earlier post. As I said before, this s/w apparently gets close to what I have installed. 14 day money back guarantee according to the information at the bottom of: https://www.highend-audiopc.com/audiophile-optimizer

The results for me from using the s/w currently installed on my Windows laptop are plainly audible. Details are not subjective. They're either there or not. Perhaps you'll find similar results with AO (or not). Only one way to find out.
 
Windows was never designed for playing audio or even video.

I wasn't talking about what Windows was designed to do. I'm simply posting about what is possible on Windows on the basis of what I heard in my system.

As the (possibly apocryphal) quote from Keynes goes: "When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do, sir?"

I was a sceptic before doing this. Now, I'm a believer. I'm no Shakira, but I'm moved to say: Details don't lie ;)

No offence to you liverpool.

None taken, venkat. I wasn't advocating that people use Windows. I was merely pointing out that the idea that one cannot get high-quality audio playback from Windows is worth examining. At least if my results are anything to go by.
 
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From whatever my experience has been with Windows Audio:

any optimizations aside, any player that claims audiophile enhancements or bitperfect play like jplay, audirvana, jriver process sound internally. But people do like the sound that come out from them. If you are purist, stay away from them.
What exactly do you mean by "process sound internally"? Do you mean that these players change the source data before spitting it out? If yes, is that just your opinion? If yes, what is this opinion based on? I'm very curious to know and will be happy with an answer. What player would you recommend that is bit perfect?

Windows was never designed for playing audio or even video. Just because it is used extensively and is so user friendly, we expect it to do everything perfectly.
Windows and mass market OS's are never designed to fulfill just one specialized purpose (extremely well). They are at best/worst the plumbing [for want of a better analogy] that controls the underlying hardware and provides the means to utilize it effectively and efficiently (at the least) via software that may be written for a specialized purpose. Some OS's have fancy GUI's to do this which Windows does to make it user friendly or idiot proof and others don't. This plumbing comes bundled with a set of commonly used applications. Some applications are efficient, some not so much. Again, none of these are built to cater to a niche audience. So, niche users find them lacking for their purpose. We have hardware (which Win is not), we have the OS (which Win is) and we have software (developed by Win and others). The OS is also software but let's not go there. All of these work or can be made to work hand in hand very efficiently to fit and suit one's purpose if one has the knowledge and tenacity. Some OS's are open source, so one can easily remove everything not needed to make it lean and some (like Windows) are closed source which makes it difficult to disable/remove unwanted stuff. But with pain, it can be done.

Whatever magic we do with the OS, a laptop or a PC does not have the hardware to play music of high quality. I do believe Asus has some special circuitry in some of their models, but that is also meant for games.
What hardware do you believe needs to be in place for high quality music? Noise reduction? Better grounding? Better isolation? Better shielding? Eliminating SMPS? I believe all these (and more) are lacking in typical hardware running Windows and need to be improved in general purpose machines. But for the hardware manufacturers it is not a priority because it does not in the least affect the purpose for which they are built. So, we live with what we cannot control easily, do what we can with what we can control - the OS and software, and thus, we can make Windows do what we want it to do and do it extremely well ALONG with the other stuff that comes with Windows; the usage of which is part of many of our lives now.

That said, if you can send an audio file in digital format to an external DAC, why do you need to do anything else?
That is a commonly held fallacy just like the concept of digital music being just 0's and 1's and thus not needing "special" handling. There are tons of resources about this on the internet written by people more qualified than me so I won't belabor this. All I can suggest is one word - "Google". :)

If you are going to listen to music from your laptop, use a set a good speakers, and the audio is of fairly decent quality.
Yes. But for some, just decent quality is just not good enough.

I listen to an hour of music every day using a software called Audacious and a set of speakers that costs a ridiculous 10$ (https://us.geniusnet.com/product/sp-hf160/), and I don't find anything greatly amiss in it.
What's your benchmark?

You play a Blu-ray disk from an HTPC and a regular player, you can see the difference. There is nothing wrong with the PC. Just that it is not optimized for the task and is dependent on too many hardware and software that are in the path of the media. That is one of the reasons, why after using a HTPC for over 10 years, I am actively looking at moving to a media player.
Again, hardware and software! But really, it is nothing much to do with as you say "too much" in the path. You control what you can. And there IS granular control of quality if one knows how to. Also, there are HTPC's available at different price points with different (better?) hardware thus offering varying levels of performance. We often use bundled (with the OS) software and then base our conclusion on their performance. We should not do that.

All that aside, I think Raspberry Pi and associated DACs have made the concept of fooling around with Windows completely redundant. An RPi3 + an Allo DAC comes well under 7K, and that beats the pants off most systems. It is so tiny, you can keep it next to your laptop and hear music in genuine HiFi. You can even stick it with double sided tapes under you table, so it does not take any space. And, you can control it from your Windows system. And the best is that you can misuse the system thoroughly. Switch it off halfway, keep it on the whole day, forget to switch it off before you go to bed.... it seems to take all this with a smile.
All these points are valid for the RPi but are equally valid for modern Windows machines that are available for quite some time now. There are Windows machines commonly available at a size a little more than the Pi, that can do numerous things (that a Pi cannot). And I don't quite see the point you're trying to make of the RPi being so tiny that one can keep it next to one's laptop and hear music in genuine HiFi. What has tiny and proximity to the laptop got to do with genuine HiFi? I'm missing something here.

No licensing and other issues are other great advantages.
Yes.

I never even had to rewrite the OS in nearly 6 moths of abusive usage of the poor system.
Why would one need to do this “rewrite" for any OS? Modern OS's are resilient enough to take a LOT of abuse.

Why would I even bother fooling around with Windows?
Leave alone Windows, one shouldn't fool around with any OS if one does not know what they are doing. If not fooling around with Windows floats one's boat - that is enough happiness. For some, that level of happiness is not enough, knowing that one can be happier by extracting more performance. That's why people write software to do what needs to be done better. And the users run that software with one (or many) button clicks and the software performs the purpose that it is written for. For the user - painless. For the developer/s of any software - the journey is definitely not painless especially with Windows, but the results speak for themselves when the user is happy. Period.


Just my 2 paisa worth. :)
 
What exactly do you mean by "process sound internally"? Do you mean that these players change the source data before spitting it out? If yes, is that just your opinion? If yes, what is this opinion based on? I'm very curious to know and will be happy with an answer. What player would you recommend that is bit perfect?

Yes its my opinion. Its not a hidden fact that all players sound different. If these players did not change the source data, there is no way they would sound different on same hardware. Imo there is one thing common with these audiophile players, they all artifically smoothen out the extreme frequencies in name of adding analogishness. Now question comes how do we know whats the perfect sound. Its simple, there is none. Try all and find out what you like. Foobar and my dacs asio driver works best for me so thats my choice. Also foobar sounds the closest to allo sound also for me.

Here is an opinion on jplay from jriver. I am not saying jriver sounds best but it shows only way to sell your product is to make it sound different, otherwise who will buy these products if they sound similar to foobar.

 
Yes its my opinion. Its not a hidden fact that all players sound different. If these players did not change the source data, there is no way they would sound different on same hardware.
I can write a player [and have done so long ago - a very simplistic crude one] that changed the way the audio that it spat out sounded. No manipulation was done to the source data at all - I know because I wrote it keeping that in mind. Just the different methods used to write the data to the output port [1 line in code changed] differed. The data that it output was bit perfect between copy methods. No measurements taken at the output suggested otherwise. Still the sound changed. Why it sounded different was beyond me. Extremely slight delay between chunks of data output? The registers used for the copy? The paths determined by the compiler? I never did figure out. I have my theories but they are "wild".

Imo there is one thing common with these audiophile players, they all artifically smoothen out the extreme frequencies in name of adding analogishness.
You are entitled to your opinion but like I said above, in my experiments there was no need to "smoothen" out anything - there was a change in sound without any smoothing.

Now question comes how do we know whats the perfect sound. Its simple, there is none. Try all and find out what you like. Foobar and my dacs asio driver works best for me so thats my choice. Also foobar sounds the closest to allo sound also for me.
The perfect sound at least for me is something that I like. That is all that should matter.

Here is an opinion on jplay from jriver. I am not saying jriver sounds best but it shows only way to sell your product is to make it sound different, otherwise who will buy these products if they sound similar to foobar.
That is something that is a blast from the past and is no longer valid these days for JPlay when it was just a plugin. JPlay has evolved a lot since then. If you believe what they said about JPLay in that web page, you will also automatically believe in the line further down in that page - "For his computeraudiophile.com blog, Mitchco tested JRiver Media Center and Jplay. Both produce measurably identical bitperfect output.". And there is a contradiction right there because the first line says "It adds a layer of sound processing that can degrade sound quality, performance, and stability." - so bitperfect output but degraded sound!!!. :)
 
I can write a player [and have done so long ago - a very simplistic crude one] that changed the way the audio that it spat out sounded. No manipulation was done to the source data at all - I know because I wrote it keeping that in mind. Just the different methods used to write the data to the output port [1 line in code changed] differed. The data that it output was bit perfect between copy methods. No measurements taken at the output suggested otherwise. Still the sound changed. Why it sounded different was beyond me. Extremely slight delay between chunks of data output? The registers used for the copy? The paths determined by the compiler? I never did figure out. I have my theories but they are "wild".

I have also been intrigued since long, why the sound changes. Even if data transmitted is bit-perfect why the sound is not perfect. Few things which I learnt.. in the order of learning.

a) Timing of transmission for each bit is not perfect. Remember 50 Lac plus bits need to be transmitted in a single second and in an ideal case each bit should arrive at its perfect time.

Timing is impacted by the software player, the OS, the underlying chips and hardware and finally the quality of power both from outside and how power is handled inside.


b) The current from USB transmission either the power rail PLUS the data rail which obviously contains current and the fluctuations, affects the circuit at the receiving end as well to a large extent. (Hence some people prefer Optical over USB/Coax).

c) For point(b) I have read that galvanical isolation can decrease the negative affect, but cannot reduce to zero. (e.g. LAN cable is by-design galvanically isolated at the receiving but still the negative impact does not go away and hence many people experiment with various lan cables, various routers / switches)
 
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I can write a player [and have done so long ago - a very simplistic crude one] that changed the way the audio that it spat out sounded. No manipulation was done to the source data at all - I know because I wrote it keeping that in mind. Just the different methods used to write the data to the output port [1 line in code changed] differed. The data that it output was bit perfect between copy methods. No measurements taken at the output suggested otherwise. Still the sound changed. Why it sounded different was beyond me. Extremely slight delay between chunks of data output? The registers used for the copy? The paths determined by the compiler? I never did figure out. I have my theories but they are "wild".


You are entitled to your opinion but like I said above, in my experiments there was no need to "smoothen" out anything - there was a change in sound without any smoothing.


The perfect sound at least for me is something that I like. That is all that should matter.


That is something that is a blast from the past and is no longer valid these days for JPlay when it was just a plugin. JPlay has evolved a lot since then. If you believe what they said about JPLay in that web page, you will also automatically believe in the line further down in that page - "For his computeraudiophile.com blog, Mitchco tested JRiver Media Center and Jplay. Both produce measurably identical bitperfect output.". And there is a contradiction right there because the first line says "It adds a layer of sound processing that can degrade sound quality, performance, and stability." - so bitperfect output but degraded sound!!!. :)

In a world where sound changes depending on where the bits sit, i am not surprised that one line of code could change the sound. Certainly it would. Commercially they try to convince us that their sound is better and spend money, in the end we choose from our options and ears and choose the poison. when we talk of bits we think 0 and 1 is being transfered. But when it actually happens its small electrical voltages that transfer bits and that too in huge numbers per second. Many factors influence those change of voltages and their interpretation at the destination. I am sure whoever designed the whole thing would also not have guessed.
 
a) Timing of transmission for each bit is not perfect. Remember 50 Lac plus bits need to be transmitted in a single second and in an ideal case each bit should arrive at its perfect time.

Timing is impacted by the software player, the OS, the underlying chips and hardware and finally the quality of power both from outside and how power is handled inside.
And you are right, sir! But, timing is just one variable - albeit, a big one. Oh, I forgot to also mention one thing - same code, different compilers also changed the perceived SQ. Crazy but true! This led me to peep into another rabbit hole - the world of compilers; it drew me in and then there went my life. :)
 
And you are right, sir! But, timing is just one variable - albeit, a big one. Oh, I forgot to also mention one thing - same code, different compilers also changed the perceived SQ. Crazy but true! This led me to peep into another rabbit hole - the world of compilers; it drew me in and then there went my life. :)

Could be because resulting machine code will be different for different compilers.
 
And you are right, sir! But, timing is just one variable - albeit, a big one. Oh, I forgot to also mention one thing - same code, different compilers also changed the perceived SQ. Crazy but true! This led me to peep into another rabbit hole - the world of compilers; it drew me in and then there went my life. :)
I feel the difference in sound quality has more to do with different noise profiles that occur on the supply and ground lines (which also gets coupled to the DAC via USB), as the processor executes different sequence of instructions than on timing. I will in fact stick my neck out and say that timing may not be a problem at all.

With regards,
Sandeep Sasi
 
same code, different compilers also changed the perceived SQ. Crazy but true!
I've experienced this on Keith's player and it's crazy. Compilers seem to have different latencies, and though these are measured in milliseconds of processor cycles which are logically too tiny for us to discern, we somehow can hear them.

For those playing audio on Windows - especially foobar2000, please talk to @keith_correa . His Windows optimisations take audio playback to another level.

Keith: you've been "voluntold":)
 

Liverpool for life
can you please share your Home keys pictures (Closeup would be fine) and answer following questions
(1) When is the time that no one is at your home ? (2) Do you have CCTV cameras ? (3) Any pet dogs ?
Thanks and regards.
 
Liverpool for life
can you please share your Home keys pictures (Closeup would be fine) and answer following questions
(1) When is the time that no one is at your home ? (2) Do you have CCTV cameras ? (3) Any pet dogs ?

Heh. No need for all of this, even if I can understand the sentiment behind it ;) My home (and theater) is open to any AV enthusiast that wants to visit!
 
@keith_correa do these optimization that you do take down many essential windows background services that is essential for normal working on the laptop.
 
@keith_correa do these optimization that you do take down many essential windows background services that is essential for normal working on the laptop.
For a machine dedicated for audio playback, it is good to disable services not needed for audio. Those services will remain disabled between boots.
For a machine that is not dedicated towards audio playback and is needed for optimized playback in a session (boot), those non essential services are stopped / suspended on demand for that session. They come back up on the next boot or till they are manually started/resumed in the same session.

But one can have the best of both worlds. You just need to create another partition (100 GB should be sufficient) on your drive. Let's call it the "AP" (Audiophile Partition - Ha!). Install a copy of Windows on the AP. Your old license can be used on this to activate Windows on this partition. Optimize Windows on this partition. At boot you get a choice of booting into the AP or Full blown Windows that you have already existing. Have your cake and eat it without getting an upset tummy. :)
 
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