Beresford Caiman Review

[keith_correa]

They sound the same. The 1s and 0s out of the DVD player digital output are the same as any CD player.

Stanley, I have a basic question - are you using your 30 DVD player with your DAC? If yes, are you saying that the 1's and 0's out of your DAC are the same as any CD player or are you saying that the 1's and 0's out of the 30 player [and into your DAC if used] are the same as any CD player?

 

[Raghav]

Stanley, I have a basic question - are you using your 30 DVD player with your DAC? If yes, are you saying that the 1's and 0's out of your DAC are the same as any CD player or are you saying that the 1's and 0's out of the 30 player [and into your DAC if used] are the same as any CD player?

He means "The 1's and 0's out of the 30 player [and into your DAC] are the same as any CD player?"

In fact this is the view held by many. That the transport does not matter when using a DAC. The 1's and 0's of digital output remain the same irrespective of whether you use a cheap DVD or a good CDP. As a transport they are the same. What will matter in SQ is the quality of the "Beresford DAC" vs the "DAC inside the CDP".

Stanley correct me, if I have misunderstood. Also now a follow up question. Which CDPs would be comparable to the output of the Caiman DAC?

 

[keith_correa]

He means "The 1's and 0's out of the 30 player [and into your DAC] are the same as any CD player?"

In fact this is the view held by many. That the transport does not matter when using a DAC. The 1's and 0's of digital output remain the same irrespective of whether you use a cheap DVD or a good CDP. As a transport they are the same. What will matter in SQ is the quality of the "Beresford DAC" vs the "DAC inside the CDP".

Stanley correct me, if I have misunderstood. Also now a follow up question. Which CDPs would be comparable to the output of the Caiman DAC?

That's exactly what I meant though now that I look at my post - it's all wrong - the in/out points that I mentioned are all wrong. Sorry about that. Now that all know that I'm a certified idiot - Stanley are you saying that the transport does not matter? I guess you are. But IMO 30 is also too much too pay for transport especially when the opinion is that all transports are equal.

 

[Raghav]

But IMO 30 is also too much too pay for transport especially when the opinion is that all transports are equal.

at the very least you need a CDP/DVDP that has a digital output, basic remote, some build quality, should not spoil your CDs, last a few years. what will you get below 30GBP.

 

[Kamal]

Raghav wrote (Q) "He means "The 1's and 0's out of the 30 player [and into your DAC] are the same as any CD player?"

In fact this is the view held by many. That the transport does not matter when using a DAC. The 1's and 0's of digital output remain the same irrespective of whether you use a cheap DVD or a good CDP. As a transport they are the same. " (UQ)

The statement emphasized by bold letters is too sweeping, IMHO.
The quality of a transport does matter in that you can't use any & every transport to get a good result. A transport is also a part of the chain & shld not become its weakest link.
Ask Stanley to name some DVDPs which have, in his opinion, good enough transports.

 

[Raghav]

That was not my view. just my interpretation of what Stanley meant and what others have expressed on various forums.

I am yet to do any listening with DACs to make a comment. Even if transport does not matter, basic build quality, connections, features, longevity, ease of use etc... will matter in choice of transport.

Raghav wrote (Q) "He means "The 1's and 0's out of the 30 player [and into your DAC] are the same as any CD player?"

In fact this is the view held by many. That the transport does not matter when using a DAC. The 1's and 0's of digital output remain the same irrespective of whether you use a cheap DVD or a good CDP. As a transport they are the same. " (UQ)

The statement emphasized by bold letters is too sweeping, IMHO.
The quality of a transport does matter in that you can't use any & every transport to get a good result. A transport is also a part of the chain & shld not become its weakest link.
Ask Stanley to name some DVDPs which have, in his opinion, good enough transports.

 

[keith_correa]

This is what I had filed from somewhere - don't remember where:

What comes off a CD are not bits. i.e. 0s and 1s. What's on an audio CD contrary to what is on a data CD is an interpretation of the musical sinewave encoded in 9 types of pits T3 through T11. Only after extensive manipulation a bit stream of zeros and ones is presented to the DAC's input. Before the bitstream is created, all things are happening in the analog domain.

 

[gobble]

Here is why transport matters

CDDA Paranoia Frequently Asked Questions

Key points are:

1.The audio CD is not a random access format. It can only be played from some starting point in sequence until it is done, like a vinyl LP

2. When the CD is being played as audio, it is not only moving at 1x, the drive is keeping the media data rate (the spin speed) exactly locked to playback speed.

3. A typical desktop PC does not have the kind of I/O throughput required for jitter free payback.

4. Faster drives of today's PCs are often prone to vibration and alignment problems. Because audio discs have no headers in the data to assist in picking up where things got lost, most drives will just guess.

Edit: An audio CD is played at a speed of 75 sectors per second, which results in 176,400 bytes per second (1.34Mbits/Sec). A PC cannot playback continuously for 60 mins without incurring microsecond delays/variations in reading. Hence I guess the change in rise times for the bits coming in to the DAC affect the subjective perception of sound in the human brain.

Another tidbit that explains just how sensitive our hearing is: Just as two eyes can see in three dimensions, two ears can also "see" the placement of a sound in three dimensions as well. This stereo effect takes place with a resolution that is far beyond the 20,000 Hz limit of today's audio equipment. In fact, two ears working together can resolve as little as 5 micro-seconds in phase difference. That is one cycle of 200,000 Hz, or just 5 thousands of an inch at the speed of sound. This is how subtle the phase/timing information must be for the total hearing system to accurately locate sounds in three dimensional space. (http://www.auricalabs.com/aurica/)

HTH
Regards

 

[StanleyB]

To understand transports, you need to know the design routes and technical breakthroughs made in the manufacturing of CD and DVD mechanisms over the last 25 years. Every CD and DVD player has to pass certain minimum functionality requirement before it can be judged fit for purpose. The infamous case of the rebadged 150 Pioneer DVD player that got sold for U$4000 by Goldmund should be a good lesson to anyone who wishes to argue that a more expensive CD or DVD player performs better. I repaired CD players for more than 9 years and know for a fact that the price you pay for the player does not reflect the cost of the CD mechanism, laser pickup, and semiconductors used.
If you want the best CD player, make sure it has a Philips mechanism that is made of cast iron (CDM2 etc.), or that it has a 3 beam laser pickup. If it hasn't got any of those, then you got an ordinary CDP, not a high end one. And I don't care how much the retailer managed to get you to pay for your expensive CDP.

 

[Kamal]

Stanley wrote-
"If you want the best CD player, make sure it has a Philips mechanism that is made of cast iron (CDM2 etc.), or that it has a 3 beam laser pickup. If it hasn't got any of those, then you got an ordinary CDP, not a high end one."
Stan, care to mention some makes & models of moderately priced DVDps which meet this spec.

 

[heliumflight]

Stanley wrote-
"If you want the best CD player, make sure it has a Philips mechanism that is made of cast iron (CDM2 etc.), or that it has a 3 beam laser pickup. If it hasn't got any of those, then you got an ordinary CDP, not a high end one."
Stan, care to mention some makes & models of moderately priced DVDps which meet this spec.

Kamal you hit the hammer on the head of the nail!

--
helium
Amp: Lyrita SET 2A3
Speakers: Vintage B&W DM4
Source: LG DVD + Beresford DAC
Cables: Lyrita's I.C & cables

 

[StanleyB]

Stanley wrote-
"If you want the best CD player, make sure it has a Philips mechanism that is made of cast iron (CDM2 etc.), or that it has a 3 beam laser pickup. If it hasn't got any of those, then you got an ordinary CDP, not a high end one."
Stan, care to mention some makes & models of moderately priced DVDps which meet this spec.

You'll have to do your own search. A bit of googling is a good start. Try not to be lazy by asking others to do all the work.

 

[Raghav]

I have been reading up a bit on this. Somewhere on the net it said that "Transports can make a difference as the DAC is slaved to transport and hence chance of jitter". This can be overcome by making the DAC the master and the transport the slave. However, this requires hardware changes. Does this make any sense or they are taking us for a ride?

Also the Beresford Caiman DAC should be benchmarked to which CDPs, just to get an idea of the comparables.

Raghav

If you want the best CD player, make sure it has a Philips mechanism that is made of cast iron (CDM2 etc.), or that it has a 3 beam laser pickup. If it hasn't got any of those, then you got an ordinary CDP, not a high end one. And I don't care how much the retailer managed to get you to pay for your expensive CDP.

 

[rikhav]

You'll have to do your own search. A bit of googling is a good start. Try not to be lazy by asking others to do all the work.

Why not sell the 30 GBP dvdp as a bundle with your DAC?

 

[thevortex]

You'll have to do your own search. A bit of googling is a good start. Try not to be lazy by asking others to do all the work.

Well, Stanley, I think all of us are just interested in learning more. If you do have the information on DVD players (such as Pioneer or Samsung or Philips) working well in tandem with your DAC, ie, as good as when, say an Oppo DVD player or even a Marantz CD player - we would love to know more about this.

Theoretically you are saying that a Samsung DVD player plus Beresford DAC combination would be equal to a Marantz CD player plus Beresford DAC combo?

 

[Rajesh_p]

You'll have to do your own search. A bit of googling is a good start. Try not to be lazy by asking others to do all the work.

Stan I'm sure your arrogance needs to be tamed! True Knowledge grows with sharing else it stagnates and is now showing signs.

Have a Good day!

 

[unleash_me]

So it getting out of ones habit of being spoon-fed all their life.

All it takes is a few key strokes and a bit of your time. More often than not, you might get lucky to find more info than what you might have started off for. It never hurts to dig around and find things on your own, then may be share it for the salvation of true knowledge.

 

[gobble]

So it getting out of ones habit of being spoon-fed all their life.

All it takes is a few key strokes and a bit of your time. More often than not, you might get lucky to find more info than what you might have started off for. It never hurts to dig around and find things on your own, then may be share it for the salvation of true knowledge.

Yep guys, this topic is one that needs personal research over a long time as a hobby. You are likely not to find an answer in a days work.

Good pic Unleash!

Cheers

 

[thevortex]

So it getting out of ones habit of being spoon-fed all their life.

All it takes is a few key strokes and a bit of your time. More often than not, you might get lucky to find more info than what you might have started off for. It never hurts to dig around and find things on your own, then may be share it for the salvation of true knowledge.

Yep guys, this topic is one that needs personal research over a long time as a hobby. You are likely not to find an answer in a days work.

Good pic Unleash!

Cheers

Guys - dont get me wrong. It is not a question of research. I love that part of my purchase even more than the acquisition and enjoyment of the product itself.

But then the question asked was one discussing relative merit. As a producer of quality DACs, Stanley is in a position to explain to us exactly how his DAC is different to others in the market. If he does not want to do that, then all he has to do is say it. Instead of assuming that everybody who asks questions is lazy and not willing to do any research.

 

[cmsajith]

Guys - pulled the trigger for Caiman DAC from Stanley. Paid 199.99GBP (15282/- INR) through PayPal.