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Beware of Fraudulent Sellers

Mogami Cables
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delhite2

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Yes if the invoice is forged we can some how cross check with the seller. Like i said for argument sake we can keep coming up with points. Now you will ask what if the bill is real and you get fake product. It can go on and on
Exactly, it's better that you ask from the seller to start with then, rather than afterwards to cross check the shared invoice. You can ask for price from the forum member and the product dealer. Basically as mentioned it boils down to buyers diligence and not some forum mandated rule.
 
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Love4sound

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I wanted my last post to be the actual last post on this thread
Yet reposting what I had said for the sake of posterity - Yet unsure why you’d find it insulting





If it’s an allusion to youth that you construed as an insult, it is based on a presumption built on your DP (unless of course it’s an old pic)
In any case, getting called young now is something that cheers me up - certainly won’t read it as an insult :)
No telling me that ink will fade in time and i will realize that as i grow old? Seems like a sarcastic comment
 

Mi_10

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@Love4sound
For your very first example about the BIC subs ...wasn’t that a dead give away that the seller is unethical telling you Pay me first and then I ll show you the bill ?
From all your posts you seem to against price arbitraging. While some may find it unethical some may find them as normal since it is a business transaction based on supply demand.
As a buyer one is looking for value , that is why he is ending up in used market .if today’s MRP is a lac and am getting an used, well maintained and no repair history amp for say 60k(even though the seller might have got his for 50k 3 years back ) I will still buy it ! At least personally I don’t see an issue .

however Your side of argument is about how can he price is above his billed price ! Looks like you are more concerned about the seller profit or lack of it rather than the buyers

If bills are made mandatory do you think this would end price arbitrage ? I don’t think so.
As long as the new price keeps increasing (esp at the rate which it goes up these days) I don’t think it will stop arbitrage.
However one point I will agree is Authenticity of purchase ? Yes it will rule out grey market goods .

While you may have a great habit of keeping all bills secured (digitally or otherwise) you can’t expect all others to be on the same plane and give shock reactions for failing to do so ! For example i keep bills for high value items however for a 50k amp I don’t even remember the bill. Yes if I were to sell it, I can get a duplicate invoice from the dealer, if the buyer Insists but making it a mandatory field during posting I find it hard ! Moreover what about those items;
Which are brought as used from fellow members (who didn’t share you the bill)
I have seen Items here where the owners are more than 4 or more with long history !
What about items with vintage value
What about items brought abroad (that bill is of no use anyway taking into account the exchange rate and at the time of purchase)

my point is keep it simple. If you want HFV to protect members from unscrupulous sellers there are other better ways. For example the recently introduced 91 day 91 post mandate . After 91 posts you ll clearly know if that guy is an enthusiast or a random OLX seller ! All said and done, the onus is truly on the buyer than anyone else including HFV ! If you don’t do your due diligence you ll end up with a bitter story. Have been at a receiving end of one such bad deal and lost 15k over it . The interesting part isn’t he entire story is I was the Seller ! The buyer said he will pay the remaining once the product reaches his hand and then I never heard from him . But if there is one person to blame in that entire episode it’s ME !
 
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Love4sound

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@Love4sound
For your very first example about the BIC subs ...wasn’t that a dead give away that the seller is unethical telling you Pay me first and then I ll show you the bill ?
From all your posts you seem to against price arbitraging. While some may find it unethical some may find them as normal since it is a business transaction based on supply demand.
As a buyer one is looking for value , that is why he is ending up in used market .if today’s MRP is a lac and am getting an used, well maintained and no repair history amp for say 60k(even though the seller might have got his for 50k 3 years back ) I will still buy it ! At least personally I don’t see an issue .

however Your side of argument is about how can he price is above his billed price ! Looks like you are more concerned about the seller profit or lack of it rather than the buyers

If bills are made mandatory do you think this would end price arbitrage ? I don’t think so.
As long as the new price keeps increasing (esp at the rate which it goes up these days) I don’t think it will stop arbitrage.
However one point I will agree is Authenticity of purchase ? Yes it will rule out grey market goods .

While you may have a great habit of keeping all bills secured (digitally or otherwise) you can’t expect all others to be on the same plane and give shock reactions for failing to do so ! For example i keep bills for high value items however for a 50k amp I don’t even remember the bill. Yes if I were to sell it, I can get a duplicate invoice from the dealer, if the buyer Insists but making it a mandatory field during posting I find it hard ! Moreover what about those items;
Which are brought as used from fellow members (who didn’t share you the bill)
I have seen Items here where the owners are more than 4 or more with long history !
What about items with vintage value
What about items brought abroad (that bill is of no use anyway taking into account the exchange rate and at the time of purchase)

my point is keep it simple. If you want HFV to protect members from unscrupulous sellers there are other better ways. For example the recently introduced 91 day 91 post mandate . After 91 posts you ll clearly know if that guy is an enthusiast or a random OLX seller ! All said and done, the onus is truly on the buyer than anyone else including HFV ! If you don’t do your due diligence you ll end up with a bitter story. Have been at a receiving end of one such bad deal and lost 15k over it . The interesting part isn’t he entire story is I was the Seller ! The buyer said he will pay the remaining once the product reaches his hand and then I never heard from him . But if there is one person to blame in that entire episode it’s ME !
Well you are telling the same thing again and what others have been telling. I made my point very clear and simple. Like I have mentioned this is done and dusted where the mods also didn’t find it necessary. I stick on to what I said and let’s leave it at that. One thing I want to highlight is I highly doubt it u even read and understood my comment in the first place. Did I ever mention that I am against the seller selling it for higher price? I clearly stated that it’s the seller wish to sell even a 100 rs product to 1lakh. Feels like every one here is giving me a lecture with no idea on the point I am trying to make or may be all prefer selling it that way and defending the method. Else there is no need for any one to write paragraphs and justify one simple suggestion I made which wasn’t even acknowledged by the mods
 
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Mi_10

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One thing I want to highlight is I highly doubt it u even read and understood my comment in the first place. Did I ever mention that I am against the seller selling it for higher price? I clearly stated that it’s the seller wish to sell even a 100 rs product to 1lakh.
Hi Nikhil

I would request moderators to look in to one important factor in the sales section. Please make it mandatory to share bill or any proof of purchase. Lot of them are taking advantage of the inflating prices and selling at high prices and hiding the cost they actually spent. Let me share one example. The bic pl200-II is now sold for 39-40k with discounts. One of my friend reached out to a sales ad for the bic which was nearly 2 years old which would have been purchased for 30-33k. He was selling it for 35k and wen my friend asked for the purchase price and bill he refused to show the bill and agreed to share bill after payment is made.And another brand sub which is now sold for 85-90k was on sales ad and selling for nearly 70k which is 5 years old. I am sure he would have purchased it for 50-55k 5 years back.The owners can sell at any price it’s their wish but please make it mandatory to share bill and proof of purchase. My suggestion is to not approve ads with no proof of purchase.
In the example I mentioned one subwoofer was two years old and another is 5. This isn’t vintage and for the bic the seller refused to show the bill and agreed to share the bill only after purchase. And now days we are in a digital world and most of the sellers do email the bills and we also can take a photo copy.
Why is it not reasonable? How will you know when,where and for how much the product was purchased for? All dealers nowadays provide genuine receipt (hard and soft copy)which is easy to track and verify. If giving excuse as it’s not possible, we some times loose the bills, it’s very old is clearly the individuals fault and negligence.A subwoofer purchased 5 years back for 50k and selling it for 55k just cause the current model now sells at 90k and saying don’t have bill is really bad and unethical. As a seller sure share the bill and then quote three or 4 times high it’s his wish. Like the previous comment said this is not OLX and a forum for members who are passionate about sound. Even in OLX most of the people are selling with purchase proof and bill. I even find it very lame to even explain this much in the importance of bill and proof of purchase. As this thread says beware of fraudent sellers in my opinion people who are selling by withholding the bill and hiding the original cost are also fraudent sellers. I am sorry if I sound rude
So, i went back and read all your post, apparently it seems these are the only points your are harping on ! And perhaps the reason why many are telling the same thing again and again to you !

In all your examples you have just given the same case of Seller taking advantage of the buyer by selling more than his paid price !
ah yes it is always followed by the statement that seller can price to his wish (highlighted in Italics, for your reference)

While you seem agitated and restless in response to my comment, you also missed to part about my contention to your post on Mandatory bills which is ;

"if the buyer Insists but making it a mandatory field during posting I find it hard ! Moreover what about those items;
Which are brought as used from fellow members (who didn’t share you the bill)
I have seen Items here where the owners are more than 4 or more with long history !
What about items with vintage value
What about items brought abroad (that bill is of no use anyway taking into account the exchange rate and at the time of purchase)"

i rest my case here, its upto you to decide on why people are telling the same thing again and again to you
 

Dr.Lakshay

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@Love4sound now before you go on and make the same argument again. May be think that this is just not your audience or may be introspect that you may be wrong.
Let me give you my personal example. I make it a point as much as possible that if I buy 2nd hand it has to be face to face and that the price has to be Atleast 40% lower than a new one else it makes sense buying a new one. Now these are my own rules and it would be foolish if I try to make them universal rules for everyone.
Similarly, make your own set of rules and completely ignore the sales that don't match your rules.
 

Love4sound

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So, i went back and read all your post, apparently it seems these are the only points your are harping on ! And perhaps the reason why many are telling the same thing again and again to you !

In all your examples you have just given the same case of Seller taking advantage of the buyer by selling more than his paid price !
ah yes it is always followed by the statement that seller can price to his wish (highlighted in Italics, for your reference)

While you seem agitated and restless in response to my comment, you also missed to part about my contention to your post on Mandatory bills which is ;

"if the buyer Insists but making it a mandatory field during posting I find it hard ! Moreover what about those items;
Which are brought as used from fellow members (who didn’t share you the bill)
I have seen Items here where the owners are more than 4 or more with long history !
What about items with vintage value
What about items brought abroad (that bill is of no use anyway taking into account the exchange rate and at the time of purchase)"

i rest my case here, its upto you to decide on why people are telling the same thing again and again to you
Agitated and restless? Again you have written a paragraph. Stop with your lecture. There is no case here. I made my point very clear and simple and it is you who seemed to be very restless reading all my comments. Please calm down. I get it no need to share the bill. But for me any one manipulating the price and using the inflation and not sharing bill I’ll consider as a fraudulent seller. It’s just my wish and my right. So no need to explain big. I ain’t going to change my view
 
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Love4sound

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@Love4sound now before you go on and make the same argument again. May be think that this is just not your audience or may be introspect that you may be wrong.
Let me give you my personal example. I make it a point as much as possible that if I buy 2nd hand it has to be face to face and that the price has to be Atleast 40% lower than a new one else it makes sense buying a new one. Now these are my own rules and it would be foolish if I try to make them universal rules for everyone.
Similarly, make your own set of rules and completely ignore the sales that don't match your rules.
No I am not wrong. I made my point and expressed my view. Mods didn’t thinks it’s necessary and so does others end of story.
 
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Mi_10

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One thing I want to highlight is I highly doubt it u even read and understood my comment in the first place. Did I ever mention that I am against the seller selling it for higher price? I clearly stated that it’s the seller wish to sell even a 100 rs product to 1lakh.
But for me any one manipulating the price and using the inflation and not sharing bill I’ll consider as a fraudulent seller. It’s just my wish and my right. So no need to explain big. I ain’t going to change my view
Please decide on what is that you stand for ? Because i see contradictory posts made within a span of few hours.


Agitated and restless? Again you have written a paragraph. Stop with your lecture. There is no case here. I made my point very clear and simple and it is you who seemed to be very restless reading all my comments. Please calm down.
Thanks to you, I am calm now! "First seek to understand; then to be understood"

Before you start you hallucinate and vent out your frustration, let me clarify that the above statement..err.. Paragraph was originally lectured by Dr. Stephen Covey and not me :D
 

Love4sound

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Please decide on what is that you stand for ? Because i see contradictory posts made within a span of few hours.




Thanks to you, I am calm now! "First seek to understand; then to be understood"

Before you start you hallucinate and vent out your frustration, let me clarify that the above statement..err.. Paragraph was originally lectured by Dr. Stephen Covey and not me :D
No I have not made any contradictory posts. I said any sale should be made with bill or proof of purchase. Seller can show the bill and quote the price he wishes. Even I have purchased an used PA from a FM with no bill but if I sell it I will share the GPAY receipt as a proof of purchase.
 

square_wave

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So not agreeing to say Wat price the seller purchased the product and denying to share the bill and agreeing to give the bill after receiving payment is normal?
- The buy and sell forum is just a value added service on this forum. It is not a dedicated buy / sell forum. Even dedicated buy / sell forums like Audiogon does not enforce bills. First of all, it is not practical. Most people misplace bills especially if it is out of warranty. That is just how people are! If such people are members on this forum, where will they sell their gear ?
- The best option is for the buyer to understand the value proposition and decide if they want to buy or not. This is very easy to do. Propose a price based on your perception of value after doing your R&D. If the seller agrees, go ahead with the sale or else, move on!
- Do your due diligence before you buy anything from anyone. That is your best bet against fraudulent sellers.
 

Love4sound

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- The buy and sell forum is just a value added service on this forum. It is not a dedicated buy / sell forum. Even dedicated buy / sell forums like Audiogon does not enforce bills. First of all, it is not practical. Most people misplace bills especially if it is out of warranty. That is just how people are! If such people are members on this forum, where will they sell their gear ?
- The best option is for the buyer to understand the value proposition and decide if they want to buy or not. This is very easy to do. Propose a price based on your perception of value after doing your R&D. If the seller agrees, go ahead with the sale or else, move on!
- Do your due diligence before you buy anything from anyone. That is your best bet against fraudulent sellers.
Misplacing bill is purely the fault of the individual. We shouldn’t encourage or justify negligence.First thing I do after I receive the bill is I take a photo using CamScanner and store it safe so it can be retrieved any time. I gave two valid examples and expressed my opinion that’s it. But if mods and other FM’s don’t want bills to be mandatory that’s fine I am not going to argue on that.
 
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