Blu-ray player to play Audio CDs!

[technicalganesh]

I have no dedicated CD players like CD6005, have Marrantz PM6005 amp with only Pioneer BDP 170.
If I am using Digital Coaxial Out of that player to feed the Stereo amp is that same when compared to have a dedicated CD Player?
Some people say that there are differences quality when we have such a component!
If anyone here to support them then can you explain why?

Thanks in advance!

 

[venkatcr]

CD players have dedicated circuits and DACs optimised for audio. Blu-ray and DVD players, on the other hand, are optimised for video. The assumption is that an external device will decode and amplify the sound, so these players do not worry much about audio processing.

If you take raw digital data from the Blu-ray player, and insert a DAC between the player and the amp, you will experience a marked difference in the sound.

Cheers

 

[raghupb]

PM 6005 has an in-built DAC. How do you find its performance/signature?
Here is my limited experience with DACs.
Entry level DAC is better than entry/mid level AVR/IA DAC.
Surprisingly, my 15 year old CD/DVD player's DAC is comparable to the entry level DAC at home.
They must have designed a good DAC + analog section into the player.

Good CD players (translate expensive) will have a good DAC + analog section.
BD players DAC may be mediocre since the focus is on video.
IA/AVR DACs can be good depending on company and price point.
The DAC on my Marantz NR1605 AVR did not impress me (suspect cost cutting)

So in conclusion, if you are happy with PM6005 DAC stay with it.
If not, an external DAC will make a difference. How much is up to your ears and budget.

Love the clean 4 component setup you have there. Just curious, why does the speaker have a significant toe-in? Are they ESLs?

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[philipreji]

I see no reason why Digital out from CD/DVD/Blu-ray players should be different from each other. Someone please correct me if I am wrong..

 

[MaSh]

Hi,

Let me tell you my experience past two weeks using and comparing the DAC in my Marantz vs a FiiO D03K DAC.

PS: I might not be using the right terminology to describe the sound. So please bear with me.

Use Case 1
Bluray player --coaxial-->FiiO DAC --analog-->Marantz

Source: MP3, FLAC and Audio CD.

The sound was smoother and I found the stereo separation to be better than an HDMI connected between Bluray Player and Marantz. However, while being smoother and easier on the ears, I found the sound to be missing some punch. The bass was weaker, some of the highs were toned down. With HDMI, bass was stronger and the sound livelier with nice highs.

Conclusion: I found my self switching to the HDMI path more often and staying there for longer.

Use Case 2
Old DVD Player--coaxial-->Fiio DAC--analog-->Marantz

Source: Audio CD and high bit rate MP3 CD from Sony Music

The sound was surprisingly better compared to the Bluray player. Not sure why as both were still giving out digital signal. Even though the sound was better, my family and I still felt the HDMI path from the Bluray was better sounding.

Conclusion: Though the sound was good here, some amount of convenience was lost and the the stack of sources was having a negative impact on WAF. HDMI still sounding better with lesser number of wires running did not help the cause.

Final Conclusion: The DAC was returned to Amazon with confused feelings. However, what I feel is in total acceptance with Raghupb and Venkatcr views above and might explain the Use Cases. FiiO D03K is an entry level DAC and probably no match at all to the DAC in Marantz. A higher grade DAC might have a more prominent affect to music.

Another Lesson Learnt - Hunt is on
MaSh

 

[regeHA]

I see no reason why Digital out from CD/DVD/Blu-ray players should be different from each other. Someone please correct me if I am wrong..

Its not different in terms of the actual music, but most of the times additional sound/noise (electrical) will be introduced because of the components themselves. USB, Toslink, Coaxial, etc. should all sound the same... but for me (in my system) USB introduces a lot of jitter.

Try this, play audio CD from CDP and BDP. Then rip it and play from PC or laptop. Then install MinimServer on the same PC or laptop and stream (wirelessly) the same ripped files. Wireless will sound the best because the electrical noise is isolated.

Of course the more expensive CDP and BDP also fix this issue... depending on who well they are built and how much fixing has gone into it.

But try it for yourself... you may find wireless to be so much cleaner and better in SQ... but only because its isolated from electrical noise and not because of better components or even better rips.

That's one reason most folks are going for streamers and NAS based setups these days.

 

[technicalganesh]

Thanks @Venkat

@Raghu: Thanks! The speakers appear like that because the picture was a cropped version of a wide angle shot! The Speakers are ELAC FS77 Floor-standers.

@philipreji : my question is the same one of yours! Still puzzled

@MaSh: thanks for the input!

As @philipreji said, my question is about by discarding DAC and analog section of Bluray player, is the digital out from the CD player and Bluray player are going to be different!

Otherwise I should do a homework by getting a demo CD player and side by side compare these digital outs with Marratz inbuilt Cirruslogic DAC!

 

[technicalganesh]

Coming to the Raghu's question, the performance looks good! I think everyone knows about this inbuilt Cirrus Logic DAC!

 

[prepress]

Another test would be if you try other DAC chips (Wolfson, Sabre etc.) You may like different sound signature.

 

[Audio_Freek]

So, Blu Ray Sound quality (even through Analogue audio out) Might not be even equal to the Entry level Dedicated CD Player?

I have plans to buy a CD Player,But thinking whether I should get a CD Player(I have some collection of CDs) and most of the collection is in DIgital format in HDD? Or just get a Nice DAC between the BDP and Amp? Which would be best for CD and USB Playback?

 

[raghupb]

So, Blu Ray Sound quality (even through Analogue audio out) Might not be even equal to the Entry level Dedicated CD Player?

I have plans to buy a CD Player,But thinking whether I should get a CD Player(I have some collection of CDs) and most of the collection is in DIgital format in HDD? Or just get a Nice DAC between the BDP and Amp? Which would be best for CD and USB Playback?

You have 2 routes to take:
1. Buy a CD player (note expense to be incurred)
- to use your existing CD collection
- convert your digital tracks on HDD on to blank CDs (some expense, you need to buy blank CDs)
- digital on HDD to CDA makes sense if you have FLAC or other lossless format; if MP3 then some info has already been thrown out
- trust you will like the DAC/analog out from CD player
- make more space for physical CDs

2. Buy an external DAC (note expense to be incurred)
- convert your CDs to lossless format on HDD (FLAC/ALAC etc)
- get the ease of playing from laptop or media player
- if you get a wireless DAC, voila you have streaming capability too
- less physical medium to handle (make sure you have backups as HDDs can notoriously crash on you)

I for one have embraced the digital format on HDD. Have converted most of my CDs into 16/44.1 FLACs. Not completely sold on the 24 bit "revolution" for playback though.
The convenience of using a SW player to make playlists and tinker with EQ settings trumps every other method for audio in terms of flexibility.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Audio_Freek]

Raghu Sir,

Thanks for the Advice, Possibly I would take route 1 first and route 2 Later. FLAC's are not much impressive whistle comparing to the Physical CD playing the same track in my current Set-up .

As RegeHA pointed out USB medium might add some minimal noise to the music,which is completely bypassed in CD.

 

[technicalganesh]

Oops! My first reply was missing to get posted!

Thanks to @venkatcr, @philipreji, @MaSh, @regeHA, @prepress and @Audio_Freek for your valuable time guys!

@Raghu: actually the speakers are ELAC FS 77 floor standers only! The picture I showed is a cropped version of a wide angle photo! That's why it loos like toed-in!

@philipreji my question is exactly same of you! Is there any potential difference between Bluray and dedicated CD players if we discard analog part of them and get the digital outs!

Thanks again!

 

[jls001]

Is there any potential difference between Bluray and dedicated CD players if we discard analog part of them and get the digital outs!

In the recent past my earlier belief that bluray or DVD players won't stand up to entry-level dedicated CDPs when used as transport, has been turned on its head. My first experience was with a Sony BDP- S380 bluray player (about a month back) where I could compare:

1) the analog output direct to an integrated tube amp
2) the SPDIF output to an external USB/SPDIF DAC, then to the same integrated tube amp.

Versus

A) Dedicated music PC playing JPlay > USB out to the same DAC in 2) above, then to the same integrated tube amp.
B) same music PC playing Bug Head > USB out to the same DAC in 2) above, then to the same integrated tube amp.

Our findings (my friend and me):
Setup 1) - analog output of the bluray player - sounded the poorest, even rough, though nearly listenable.
Setup 2) - SPDIF output of the bluray player used as CD transport - sounded very good.
Setup A) sounded lower than 2), though I personally had fairly high expectations.
Setup B) sounded the best of the lot.

Eventually, my friend decided to settle with setup A) for computer playback and setup 2) for CD playback. Setup A) was chosen for the convenience of controlling his playback from an Android tablet. Setup B) was deemed too complicated by him, though he agreed that it sounded the best of the lot.

Of course I'm not saying that every bluray player will sound very good, but I'm beginning to think that we're throwing the baby with the bath water, without really proving for ourselves whether bluray and DVD players merit attention as serious transports.

My second experience (about two weeks ago) is with an Oppo DV-981HD DVD player. I got it in non working condition and got it repaired by a neighborhood electronics repair man. I tried the analog out and I must say it sounds strident and rough. It's not really listenable when compared to my primary digital source (Bug Head computer playback). On using the SPDIF output of this DVD player to DAC, it sounds quite good, even close to the Bug Head. I'm happily spinning the silver disc on this Oppo

 

[technicalganesh]

Wow! Great work and you bought the information required for us quite as expected! I really appreciate your efforts in identifying the right source for the transport!

But still you have not experienced dedicated CD player right?

I am going to find someway personally in future and reply back this post anyway!

Once again thanks to all and I really appreciate all of your inputs!

 

[Vinod.R]

Just to throw a fly in the works!

My Pioneer BDP 51FD sounds absolutely fabulous with CDs. I have of course not measured anything and can only say based on my limited listening abilities.

It has proven to sound better than at least 10 other Pioneer DVD players and 1 Philips DVD player.

Could it be due to the DACs in the player?

I would merit my player as a standalone CD player with the added benefit of playing blu rays.

 

[Audio_Freek]

DVD\BLU Ray players(other then Hi-end) were said to be designed for Video processing and Dedicated CD Player (When we say this then only the Players which player Audio CDs) are designed only audio and all the bucks we pay to make the sound better.

I was Using Normal CD Player (local once)- I could say they were Loud,But not clear
Then Moved to Philips DVD Player-Now slight improvement in over all sound
Before few years again got DVD Player with USB Plug and Play, No Big improvement other than that I could play music from USB sticks

Recently, I got Pinoeer Blu ray and Yes they did some magic to my CD's which they are played. I was so amazed with the depth and clarity delivered from the CD's. Now planning to buy a CD Player just to play my CD collection and continue using Blu ray for playing FLAC and MP3(320kbps) from HDD.

 

[spirovious]

My second experience (about two weeks ago) is with an Oppo DV-981HD DVD player. I got it in non working condition and got it repaired by a neighborhood electronics repair man. I tried the analog out and I must say it sounds strident and rough.

Actually Oppo DV-981 was famous for its video/HDMl out.Oppo DV-980 was praised for its analog out.lt had better DAC section than 981.May be the reason.

 

[jls001]

But still you have not experienced dedicated CD player right?

Sometime in the future I'll be able to compare the Sony bluray player against a very high end CD player (my friend is awaiting new lens).

I also not in position to compare my Oppo DVD player against my own CD player at this time but if audio memory serves, the Oppo used as transport is not far away from my CD player.

 

[venkatcr]

FLAC's are not much impressive whistle comparing to the Physical CD playing the same track in my current Set-up .

As RegeHA pointed out USB medium might add some minimal noise to the music,which is completely bypassed in CD.

This has multiple issues that need to be taken care of:

1. What software you use for ripping. The best is EAC. If EAC gives you 90% accuracy or more, the FLAC will be identical to the CD source.
2. How close you are to the source FLAC file in terms of extraction and DAC conversion.

I use an Asus sound card and use that to play all my FLACs. The sound is perfect, and many times, even better than the original CD. I have made PC + Asus, a simple tube amp, and single driver speakers my staple system for listening to music. I have compared this with systems worth multiple lakhs of rupees that I have heard. My system taken me closest to analog music at a very reasonable price.

FLAC and Wave files can be as good or even better than most CD players if your chain is good.

Cheers