hi venkatcr,
hehehe! -
i can imagine the man (Kalman Rubinson) - being rude to his dogs and irritable with his wife - and having a sleepless night (having sold his soul to the devil) - after writing that!:lol:
regds
Buying Expensive CD Players -Are we getting Cheated
- Thread starter SKR
- Start date
hi venkatcr,
hehehe! -
i can imagine the man (Kalman Rubinson) - being rude to his dogs and irritable with his wife - and having a sleepless night (having sold his soul to the devil) - after writing that!:lol:
regds
spirovious
Well-Known Member
another example,but practically same mother company-
Denon 1920 and Marantz 6600 is the same - AVForums.com
Denon 1920 and Marantz 6600 is the same - AVForums.com
Heres a question for all of you and there is no right answer but something to think about -
What would you buy - CDP A or CDP B - both selling for $2000?
1. CDP A that has parts worth say $1000 and had a certain sound quality/signature
2. CDP B that has parts worth say $500 and had the same/similar sound quality as CDP A
Would the brand name have an affect on your purchase? Would knowing that a higher premium is being charged (compared to BOM cost) affect your decision?
Assume that other factors such as input/output spec, warranty are all the same.
cheers
What would you buy - CDP A or CDP B - both selling for $2000?
1. CDP A that has parts worth say $1000 and had a certain sound quality/signature
2. CDP B that has parts worth say $500 and had the same/similar sound quality as CDP A
Would the brand name have an affect on your purchase? Would knowing that a higher premium is being charged (compared to BOM cost) affect your decision?
Assume that other factors such as input/output spec, warranty are all the same.
cheers
Hi Odyssey
Normally none of us know what is the cost of parts inside the equipment. Manufacturers will never mention it. There is no way of knowing whether similar priced equipment has the same cost attached to the parts. So i guess it all comes down to sound quality, reliability and dealer comfort
Normally none of us know what is the cost of parts inside the equipment. Manufacturers will never mention it. There is no way of knowing whether similar priced equipment has the same cost attached to the parts. So i guess it all comes down to sound quality, reliability and dealer comfort
Spiro, this comparison is not correct. Denon and Marantz are part of the same group, so sharing of R&D and designs would be there. In addition the two products will have nearly similar pricing. Ultimately what will sell, in this case, will depend upon the geography, brand loyalty, and local support.
In the case of Oppo and Lexicon, they are two different companies. The market is the same, and the price difference is astronomical.
Cheers
most certainly B, assuming quality and durability reviews are the same
no earthly reason to pay for just for the tag!regards
Agree with Prem! We dont know about the parts and the suppliers are not about to let us know about it. Those who bought the $500 CD player would be heaving sighs of envy looking at the $1000 piece and the latter would be looking snidely with probably a curled upper lip at the $500 piece believing that they had got the better equipment overall.
spirovious
Well-Known Member
I agree,but prices may have a gap as Marantz must be costly.
cmsajith
Well-Known Member
This is one of the main reason why manufacturers say the warranty will be void if it is "opened \ seal is broken", under this name, they are literally trying to hide the internal components.
Sridhar, the answer is not very simple.
IBM ruled the market in mainframes for a long time by providing cutting edge product and excellent service. Digital Equipment Corporation ruled the market by providing products that were meant for scientific computing and products that would never fail. You could never ever crash a PDP/11 computer, and that is reason that all space programs were based on DEC computers. Both these companies built up their reputation over a long time. Both these companies, unfortunately, did not see the evolving market and were swept aside.
Microsoft followed a different strategy. They killed the competition and bullied their customers. At the end of the day, they are facing competition from a unexpected quarter - the Net.
One thing common amongst all these companies - all of them had control over unique products and/or technology. No one else could duplicate that. There was only one IBM mainframe. There was only one PDP/VAX 11. There is only one MS OS. Yes, Tiger has the potential to dethrone, but MS has that in control. What else is common amongst these companies? The time and effort taken to develop their technologies as well as the iron tight grip on IP and other controls.
When we talk about consumer electronics, the market is different. I have, for example, no affiliation to any one brand. I have A/Cs from Samsung, O'General. I have a fridge from LG, a washing machine from IFB. I have TVs from LG, Akai, and Sansui. I have AV equipment from Onkyo, Oppo, Wharfedale, Pioneer, etc. Why? - simply because at the time of purchase these products provided the best VFM to me. Yes, I have to deal with multiple service requirements. Frankly I have not been able to make out any difference in the service requirements of any of these companies. I face the same hassle and need to exert the same amount of effort in each case. All the call centres may talk wax eloquent, but when it come brass tacks, they are all the same. I have solved my issue by befriending the technician so that I get a slightly more personalised care.
If at all I have any affiliation, it is to the dealer/shop that I buy from. Nearly all the products have been purchased from one shop. Again why? Number of reasons - I like the shop owner; he is knowledgeable, he remembers me; he treats me with respect; and, he gives me good discounts.
Both Oppo and, in my mind, Pioneer to some extent, completely destroyed the concept of high prices in the DVD player arena. They had/have access to the same technology that the manufacturers who made high priced products had/have. A good DVD player that would cost $1000, suddenly was available at less than $200. I can understand Pioneer with it's large distribution and service network. But how did Oppo do this? Smartly, I would say. They made products that would work for a long time, they used the Net to cut distribution and storage costs, and used Net based review mechanism to create a flutter in the market.
The media player market is becoming even more complicated. First came Squeezebox that allowed you to distribute music across the house with reasonable quality. They made a simple product, allowed the software to be in the open forum and gathered a huge reputation for themselves. Along came Logitech and changed a very successful business model. Then came Syabas that followed a strategy very similar to Logitech. A simple product, open forum for software, and correct pricing. But then they have been overwhelmed by a host of other companies following the same model. All of them use Sigma Design processors and there is hardly any difference between them, other than the external box. So which one do you choose?
Ten years ago companies such as Meridian, Yamaha and others designed and developed DSP as well as DAC circuitry. So if you wanted to buy a good CD player, you had to buy from one of such companies. Today DSP is made by TI and is the same in all players. DACs are made by a few companies such as Burr Brown, Cirrus Logic and others. They give you the complete implementation plan to develop a player that is as good as any other player in the market. Oppo placed itself in the Silicon Valley, worked with these companies and turned the DVD Player market upside down. Why would I buy from A, when B can give me the same product at a lesser price? After all the internal electronics comes from a few external sources, and these companies have no control over that. So why should I pay a premium to a Denon or a Yamaha?
As I said the decision is not easy. We have more choices, and along with it more confusion. Would I go with a product from a well known company for peace of mind? Would I be tempted by the options in a similar product from a less well know company? Would I take a risk and go with new technology and a unknown company that is open and transparent? Will my dealer help me make the choice. Will the dealer/distributor support/service me? Will I follow the 'use and throw' methodology and change my equipment every once in 3 or 4 years?
Cheers
Well the example I took was just to have a thought process going. Its not that you know the exact price, however, you may get some idea of the price of parts simply because reviews may publish a list of some great components e.g.
1. Blackgate caps vs others
2. 10 regulated PS - vs something else
3. exotic parts vs non-exotic stuff
all I am saying is that there is a tendencyfor all of us to get carried away with build quality and the supposed benefit of expensive parts/finish to perceived sound quality. This is also what a lot of companies use as arguments when they design/build their products. There are examples of companies where they have built great products purely based on IP, but the market in general is hesistant to pay for IP or for R&D time - this is more so the case in our market.
cheers
1. Blackgate caps vs others
2. 10 regulated PS - vs something else
3. exotic parts vs non-exotic stuff
all I am saying is that there is a tendencyfor all of us to get carried away with build quality and the supposed benefit of expensive parts/finish to perceived sound quality. This is also what a lot of companies use as arguments when they design/build their products. There are examples of companies where they have built great products purely based on IP, but the market in general is hesistant to pay for IP or for R&D time - this is more so the case in our market.
cheers
Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
But that's a different game, and one that companies play with themselves. Marantz has been quoted as a "must be expensive" company, but that is not true at all; they make boxes at all levels of the market. Further more, there is the "Signature Edition" thing: same model, same box, same features, same design, but different quality components.
The case that started this thread would appear to be a pure rip off. But what if some company took those Oppo components, and mounted them inside a box machined from solid aluminium? No doubt audiophiles would hear the difference, and no doubt certain magazines would love to write about it. No doubt many others would consider it pure puff for those with overloaded wallets. It would be nice, though, if the company was open about what it had done.
Personally for me, I care about how much better the $500 player is over say a $289 player is and decide if the premium is worth it (assuming my budget is in that range). I don't care if the company did ground up research and developed a product or uses OEM parts to provide the VFM.
I think Lexicon's case is an egregious one but re-labeling one product under a different name is not a new practice.
What is strange is calling Oppo as VFM while criticizing more expensive as rip-off. Wonder how many who buy brand name BD players available close to $100 think that $500 player is a rip-off. Certainly Oppo is not a mass market product. It is known only in the enthusiasts circles who want to spend more to get that extra juice for a price. Favoring one niche product over another is a matter of taste (however good one may be). Again I am not defending Lexison in this case, neither am I questioning the quality of output of Oppo.
It is not easy for product not costing less than a few thousand dollars to be in the Recommended A level component in a snob magazine like Stereophile. So, Oppo must have done something right.
But calling other brands as cheats and rip-offs seems a bit extreme. And calling Oppo a revolutionary/industry changing product? Come on...
I feel that the fan-boyism of Oppo is clouding a few people's judgment.
Just my .02
I think Lexicon's case is an egregious one but re-labeling one product under a different name is not a new practice.
What is strange is calling Oppo as VFM while criticizing more expensive as rip-off. Wonder how many who buy brand name BD players available close to $100 think that $500 player is a rip-off. Certainly Oppo is not a mass market product. It is known only in the enthusiasts circles who want to spend more to get that extra juice for a price. Favoring one niche product over another is a matter of taste (however good one may be). Again I am not defending Lexison in this case, neither am I questioning the quality of output of Oppo.
It is not easy for product not costing less than a few thousand dollars to be in the Recommended A level component in a snob magazine like Stereophile. So, Oppo must have done something right.
But calling other brands as cheats and rip-offs seems a bit extreme. And calling Oppo a revolutionary/industry changing product? Come on...
I feel that the fan-boyism of Oppo is clouding a few people's judgment.
Just my .02
At the outset I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say here. But let me see if I can make sense of what you say.
Sure. This is true for everyone. You set a budget and look for a product that gives you maximum value for that budget. BUT, if you come across a less expensive product that gives you the same or more value, would you not jump at it?
If you come across a Maruti 800 that can cruise at 150 kmph, give you 50Km to a litre, be very comfortable and have no breakdown for 5 years - is that not value for money? Similarly, if Mercedes were to take the 800 engine into it's 'S' class body and charge you 50 lakhs, is that not a rip off?
The Oppo and Lexicon are, very simply, the AV equivalent of what I explained above.
If the $100 provides the same class of quality and all features as the $500 one, the latter is certainly a rip off, maybe slightly milder as they are not charging $3500 as Lexicon is doing.
I don't think any of the members here are mass market consumers. All of us participate here to see what best we can get from the limited financial resource we have.
Oppo is certainly NOT the first product to get into Stereophile's recommended list. Paradigm Atom at some measly $100 was there way before Oppo was even born. There is a slight difference though. Most of these products would be grouped together separately as Budget Components. But Oppo's BD-83SE is a Class A product while the BD-83 is a Class B product. And they are competing with product that costs 5000 to 10,000 dollars in the same class. That is not common.
Let us assume a salesman comes to your house and sells you a Rs.10,000 product. After he has left, you open the package and find that the contents are what you can pick up from a shop at Rs.100. What would call that?
At less that $500, the Oppo has become the reference standard by which all other products are being judged now. And it is the industry's first and only product to get 10/10 in all tests. If that is not revolutionary, I don't know what is.
Cheers
Sure. This is true for everyone. You set a budget and look for a product that gives you maximum value for that budget. BUT, if you come across a less expensive product that gives you the same or more value, would you not jump at it?
If you come across a Maruti 800 that can cruise at 150 kmph, give you 50Km to a litre, be very comfortable and have no breakdown for 5 years - is that not value for money? Similarly, if Mercedes were to take the 800 engine into it's 'S' class body and charge you 50 lakhs, is that not a rip off?
The Oppo and Lexicon are, very simply, the AV equivalent of what I explained above.
If the $100 provides the same class of quality and all features as the $500 one, the latter is certainly a rip off, maybe slightly milder as they are not charging $3500 as Lexicon is doing.
I don't think any of the members here are mass market consumers. All of us participate here to see what best we can get from the limited financial resource we have.
Oppo is certainly NOT the first product to get into Stereophile's recommended list. Paradigm Atom at some measly $100 was there way before Oppo was even born. There is a slight difference though. Most of these products would be grouped together separately as Budget Components. But Oppo's BD-83SE is a Class A product while the BD-83 is a Class B product. And they are competing with product that costs 5000 to 10,000 dollars in the same class. That is not common.
Let us assume a salesman comes to your house and sells you a Rs.10,000 product. After he has left, you open the package and find that the contents are what you can pick up from a shop at Rs.100. What would call that?
At less that $500, the Oppo has become the reference standard by which all other products are being judged now. And it is the industry's first and only product to get 10/10 in all tests. If that is not revolutionary, I don't know what is.
Cheers
kapvin
Well-Known Member
SH Forums - View Single Post - New Lexicon Blu-ray Player just a repackaged Oppo BDP-83 - Only $3000 More
here's one which is equally damning!
funai=philips 7200= denon 1800. just compare the prices!
ouch!!
here's one which is equally damning!
funai=philips 7200= denon 1800. just compare the prices!
ouch!!
I have agreed that Lexicon's practice is not a good one. So, what is the need to quote that repeatedly with different analogy? I am speaking about the general tendency to diss everything that is priced higher than Oppo quoting one bad example of Lexicon. I see that you have not addressed that at all. So, what is your point?
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Thad E Ginathom
Well-Known Member
I think you missed the point; it is not about what is more expensive, it is about selling the same thing at a vastly inflated price. Primarily. I guess the conversation may have diversified a little!
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