Buying Expensive CD Players -Are we getting Cheated

[SKR]

I just got my April issue of Stereophile magazine and was shocked to read the column AS WE SEE IT on page 3 by John Atkinson Editor. " MUTTON IN WOLF's CLOTHING "

It appears many of the good brands of CD/DVD manufacturers are buying KITS from a pool of mainly Japanese and few other companies like Sony, Philips, Pioneer, Toshiba,Hitachi,Matshushita, Oppo and a few others which acts as OEM manufacturers. Some of the Highend companies buy these kits and refurnish them in an attractive looking body with heavy and beautiful front panel and some changes to passive parts.

These refubrished units are sold as Hi-End players at very high prices in the range from dollar 2K to 4 or 5K or may be more.

The reason being that this Pool of OEM manufacturers have Patented their Technology and charge very high Licencing fees if any manufacturer tries to make their own players from scratch. So it works out much cheaper to buy a Kit from any one in the POOL and refubrish it with minor changes and charge heavy premium. Also it saves them from doing their own R&D and design work.

Mr.Atkinson gave a few such cases like Lexicon buying kit from OPPO and selling their Player at $3500. On A/B comparission hardly any differences were found in sound quality. Similarly McIntosh MS 750 media player and Theta Data CD transport were in fact Escient and Philips laser disc player by putting the kit in new chasis without making enough changes and improvements. Also California Audio Lab (now closed) also used Magnavox kit.

So we know how it works in high end audio. I heard from a friend that Mr.Marklevinson the MAN after selling his interst in Marklevinson COMPANY was selling Amplifiers under a new american brand Red Rose Music which were actually Dassun amplifiers fron China and selling for 4 to 5 times Dassun's prices.

Similarly in another thread of WHICH SPEAKER CABLE TO BUY, I mentioned many smaller companies are selling Belden cables under their name. There are very few companies who make their own cables. But if you get a better cable made to your specification then itb is OK. But disguising others cable under your name is wrong.

So it is very important when we buy any product we must try to investigate about the company and its history and background.

Please go thru the April issue of Stereophile magazine page 3 ""Mutton in Wolf's Clthing"
May be if don't have magazine you can check it on the web site of stereophile but I am not sure if you can watch the current issue. May be you can read later.

SKR

 

[venkatcr]

So there goes all the talk about expensive audio products sounding 'better'. This must be the longest and most money making snake oil distribution in the world.

Actually we have to thank Audioholics for ripping open the Lexicon lie. If they had not been so equivocal and damming, I wonder if Stereophile would have said anything at all. I remember that the Stereophile review of the Lexicon BD player was all glowing and praising. After all it is advertisement prize that matters.

This has also forced other manufacturers who have used the Oppo player in their own to openly accept that they have done so, and executed 'substantial improvements' to the audio circuitry.

Cheers

 

[SKR]

So there goes all the talk about expensive audio products sounding 'better'. This must be the longest and most money making snake oil distribution in the world.

Actually we have to thank Audioholics for ripping open the Lexicon lie. If they had not been so equivocal and damming, I wonder if Stereophile would have said anything at all. I remember that the Stereophile review of the Lexicon BD player was all glowing and praising. After all it is advertisement prize that matters.

This has also forced other manufacturers who have used the Oppo player in their own to openly accept that they have done so, and executed 'substantial improvements' to the audio circuitry.

Cheers

Venkat you are absolutely correct. If this story had not broken out on WEB on stereophile online forum Stereophile Forums: What is up with this Lexicon vs Oppo? and audioholic website Oppo on the Inside, Lexicon on the Outside — Reviews and News from Audioholics , I am sure no body would have reported. The very fact John Atkinson Chief Editor had to report this on page 3 and he is trying to defend stereophile magazine.
The fact remain these magazines are surviving on advertisement revenue from the bigger brands and they dare not say that a $150 or 200 Kit is being sold for $3500-.

High end audio would not have reached this level of such high prices without these two American magazines TAS and Stereophile where they say a $20,000 Amplifier or a $ 50,000 Speaker is reasonably priced. Now some of the Turntable are costing over $100,000 and Speakers Over $200,000 and Amplifiers over $50,000 and cables around $10,000 or 15,000-
This is shear nonsense. AND I WILL HOLD HIGH END AUDIO PRESS TO BE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS. THEY ARE HAND IN GLOVE WITH MANUFACTURERS AND THE REVIEWRERS GET FREE EQUIPMENT OR THEY BUY AT VERY VERY LOW PRICE AND GET BEST SYSTEMS IN THEIR HOMES.
The Magazines get lot of Advertisment revenue. The more you advertise more higher rating you get.
The Genuine Music LOVERS AND THE MUSIC SUFFERS IN THIS GAME.
That is the reason cheaper formats are gaining popularity like MP-3, Ipod Etc.
Even If one wants to assemble a decent music system consisting of say NAD amplifier and CD player and a decent boofshelf speaker one has to spend minimum $1,000- for a decent sound. And howmany people are prepared to do that. IT IS A MONEY GAME MORE THEN A SERVICE TO MUSIC AND ITS REPRODUCTION.

SKR

 

[rams1977]

@SKR
Welcome to the world of free market, intellectual patent rights and outsourcing. What you see is a direct result of globalization. Cost pressures drive companies to go for routes like what you read in the mag, only in this case it happened to be a copyrighted material. Such examples could be found elsewhere if you dig deeper. Like in late 1990's VCD players were not so popular in china and manufacturing the players were expensive proposition. Also players were wary of upcoming DVD revolution. So many of the players in the market used critical components manufactured by philips and sold it under their brand name with huge price tags. One chinese company: Shanco built a VCD player from scratch and sold it at less than half price of players existing in market thereby capturing a huge chunk of market.

What we see now is only an evolution of tactics what we used to see earlier. I certainly won't say its cheating and thats the way companies thrive in open market. Every competitive market has a long run equilibrium where the price settles at optimum and it may be just a matter of time when someone else comes into market and grabs its share.
Thats Econo-phile for you. By this i don't mean to say we should buy this at the price but there will be somebody who's willin to pay the price and eventually demand goes down well prices will go down too.

 

[sidvee]

High end audio would not have reached this level of such high prices without these two American magazines TAS and Stereophile where they say a $20,000 Amplifier or a $ 50,000 Speaker is reasonably priced. Now some of the Turntable are costing over $100,000 and Speakers Over $200,000 and Amplifiers over $50,000 and cables around $10,000 or 15,000-
SKR

What about Hi fi+, all the German high end magazines or the Japanese high end magazines - all of them contribute to this mumbo jumbo - not only the Americans. Also a lot of the equipment endorsed by these magazines is not of American origin but European and Japanese. So IMHO the contribution to this madness is not only American but all of the top 3 economies in the World - American, German & Japanese (China catching up quite quickly).
Cheers
Sid

 

[venkatcr]

The very fact John Atkinson Chief Editor had to report this on page 3 and he is trying to defend stereophile magazine.

You are correct. I just read the article twice. It looks as if Stereophile has been badly mauled with the Audioholics article. This article is nothing more than their way of saying, 'We always knew this was happening'. Did we not mention it from 1990 onwards with McIntosh MS750 and Theta's Data CD Player?'.

Looks as if the Audioholics article has hurt Sterophile more than Lexicon !!

Cheers

 

[venkatcr]

I certainly won't say its cheating and thats the way companies thrive in open market.

It is cheating when you don't mention what your inner parts are made of. Manufacturers boast so much about Ichion capacitors and other exotic part with brand name. So if someone comes and says I have used a transport from Philips or Teac, as a user, I would actually be happy as I am getting a product in which all parts are carefully selected and integrated.

Cheers

 

[hifiashok]

all the u/m imho.

a large part of this discussion is based on an individual's opinion and 'environmental' variables.

who says an Oppo universal/BD player does not sound as good as a dedicated (read esoteric) CDP? ....some of us. who says a quad speaker sounds 'better' than a dali? .....again some of us. does that mean some of us are correct and the others not? no.

similarly, someone who pays a lac assembling a system may get a certain sense of having arrived, and a satisfaction at the end of the day. someone else may settle for a 20k setup and may be just as contended. and of course, those of us struck by upgraditis would never be anywhere either ways. music, and enjoyment thereof, in most cases here is secondary.

and, there always is the concept of 'the point of diminishing returns'. again, that 'point' has different meanings for different people, sometimes based on the 'accuracy' of the music reproduction and at other times on cost_no_bar.

if u look at all luxury and lifestyle products, functionality is overtaken by other aspects like brand, looks, snob value, exclusivity, peer level brag rights, etc., etc. and this feeds the rest of it all. the mags just further this need.

we humans seem to keep needing this constant bound redefined to keep us going. achieve one and create the next.

or then, why would some one pay obscene amounts for a tiny (relatively) piece of sparkling carbon (unless put to genuine industrial use).

advertising/marketing does account for a lot of who we are and what our aspirations get to be.

 

[SKR]

I will request members to go to Audioholic site and see the comparision made by them between two players by showing pictures of both players and also the test measurements.
Surprising thing is the Lexicon player got THX certification even when it failed the test. Its like S&P giving AAA rating to a Financial company which had to be bailed out by US government.
People give example of cars and so does Mr.Atkinson and Robert Harley of TAS. The difference is you don't buy a car on the basis of reviews alone. You go to the dealer test drive if you want. Also you know about the manufacturer and their credibility in terms of quality and technical competence. It is not only going from place A to B. Apart from this there are many Auto magazines

In case of audio it is extremely difficult to get a demo in most cases. Dealers in Asian market never keep a demo unit of expensive product. People reply on Web reviews and magazines and here lies the big Nexus. In USA as the country is so big the nearest dealer may be 400 miles from your home. Sometimes people go by flight to purchase or just to have a demo. In most cases they order online or on phone based on reviews( in USA.)

Using some parts from Philips or Sony is a different thing which is very common specially Drive unit etc. But to put an entire unit as it is without modifying anything and selling it for $$3500 is never heard of. Lexicon must have got this as Kit from OPPO at about $200 to 300 bacause only internal kit was bought not the body and other parts. Selling price of OPPO is $500-

I agree that Japanese and German and British magazines are also responsible. But I named the 2 American magazines because these two have wider circulation.

SO IT BECOMES ALL THE MORE IMPORTANT FOR THESE MAGAZINES TO GIVE ALL THE FACTS ABOUT THE PRODUCT TO THEIR READERS AND IF THEY HIDE THE FACTS KNOWINGLY THEY BECOME A PARTY TO THIS.
SKR

 

[SKR]

Absolutely Correct.

During my many months stay in China in 2007-8 working for an Audio company there, I paid Dussun a visit located in Shanghai and indeed "Red Rose" was Dussun wearing a luxurious outfit - that too made by Dussun as they do OEM work as exports and passed on these to Levinson for him to continue having a wonderful life.

In Mark levinson's career, the only genuine hard efforts work were early Levinson gear up to 20-series and the complete work at Cello Music & Film Systems. In fact, one could easily say at Cello, Tom Colangelo did miraculous work pushing new benchmarks in the extreme high-end category. Then - once Cello vanished (i.e. Liquidated typical of Mark Levinson's affairs), Tom continued his great work by starting his own company, Viola Labs. Unfortunately, Tom passed away sadly in 2007 in a terrible car crash.

Thanks for the information audio_engr.
BTW Dassun is a very good solidstate amplifier and reasonably priced. I hope someone is importingthis brand in India. If not someone must think of getting dealership. Very good amp. indeed.
SKR

 

[arj]

Another such Combo is Vincent & Cayin (Also in the name of Spark). Exactly same products.

I believe in th case of Red Rose, the design was all levinson..it was manufactured in china and of course the flagrant disregard to IP gave birth to the Dusson brand.

in the original post by SKR, the sad part is it is truly a rebadged/rebranded offering at a unexplainable premium

this is not just true in Audio.. for a very long time the Honda CRV was a rebadged ISUZU Rodeo...at 20% more cost.

 

[SKR]

Another such Combo is Vincent & Cayin (Also in the name of Spark). Exactly same products.

I believe in th case of Red Rose, the design was all levinson..it was manufactured in china and of course the flagrant disregard to IP gave birth to the Dusson brand.

in the original post by SKR, the sad part is it is truly a rebadged/rebranded offering at a unexplainable premium

this is not just true in Audio.. for a very long time the Honda CRV was a rebadged ISUZU Rodeo...at 20% more cost.

Hi ARJ,
Dassun Amplifiers are very good. So these western people in audio line are looking for such products as they can listen and know how good a product is. After Mr.Levinson left his own company he did not have funds to set up his own manufacturing. So rebadged the Dassun amplifier may be with cosmetic changes only and sold for 4 to 5 times. It was 100% Dassun Amplifier.
Chinese know even if they manufacture world class products,unless these are recommended by western magazines and websites and marketed by western/american companies no body is going to buy them.
Now the things must change as people are slowly becoming aware of inside secrets
Like Melody is making tube amps for Prima Luna and Mystere. Although Prima Luna is designed by a Dutch designer.

SKR

 

[ajinkya]

I remember that the Stereophile review of the Lexicon BD player was all glowing and praising. Cheers

I remember reading this too. This was a review of the Oppo BD and the Lexicon BD together. In fact, the reviewer had actually justified the huge price difference, pointing out that the minuscule difference (according to his ears) was worth the cost. Bunch of idiots.

 

[thevortex]

So tell me guys - does all this ever make you want to go for a Music PC solution at all?

 

[gobble]

So tell me guys - does all this ever make you want to go for a Music PC solution at all?

With a music PC you will still get a Chinese product like a mobo or DAC rebadged as a western brand at twice the price :lol:

Cheers

 

[thevortex]

Well, gobble, thats only true if you are looking to go cheap. Its very very simple to go for a standard motherboard or a sound card.

With DACs you are again entering the world of audiophilia. So there is no saying what you will encounter at what price.

 

[SKR]

I remember reading this too. This was a review of the Oppo BD and the Lexicon BD together. In fact, the reviewer had actually justified the huge price difference, pointing out that the minuscule difference (according to his ears) was worth the cost. Bunch of idiots.

This is one reason Reviewers of all the magazines do not approve of BLIND TESTING. Because they want to know which brand they are testing and results of review are given depending on the brand NOT ON LISTENING.
Ofcourse they give different reasons against blind testing. The main reason is products are ranked according to brands and advertisments they give.

 

[square_wave]

This is nothing new. It is just that this practice has become more frequent and widespread these days due to globalization.

Now the questions to ask is What is hi-end audio ?

In the case of a car, it is quite easy to identify a better car from another one. The qualities that define a better car are much more palpable and easily discernable to even a layman. This is not the case in audio. Hence there is so much snake oil business happening here. By the time a typical audiophile sees the light he would be decades into it and would have helped make many snakeoil millionaires

Even if a hi-end audio manufacturer is an ethical one (there are a number of them around), unless they are maverick in their designs and highly principled in their sound philosophies , there is no need to design anything by themselves, all the kits and designs are available. It is so much cheaper to rely on OEMs.

It is upto the customer to be wary about what they getting into.
One good way to avoid being ripped off is to stay with niche and maverick designers who have a good fan following of sensible audiophiles. Understand what the designer is doing. If you like what they think and what you hear, buy them.

Expensive does not guarantee good sound always.

Good design guarantees good sound.

So called Good spec in a product also does not mean good sound. There are hundred other factors related to implementation and engineering which are invaluable to create hi fidelity sound. They all want to sell something to you. They are no different. Some are in the spec bandwagon ! Some are in the brand value bandwagon ! Neither will guarantee good sound !


The beldens of the world will not cut it !

The snake oil hiend audio which sells mass market kits under shiny face plates also will not cut it !

 

[captrajesh]

the specific Lexicon case, it's a rip-off for sure. But this does not mean everything is.

Well said. I am going around auditioning in search of the ultimate sounding & priced (in reverse sense) amp. At one place, I was being demonstrated the difference of interconnects, speaker cables and the power chord.

After demonstrating a cheapo (Rs. 1000) interconnect, we played with the Vander hul (donno which one) & the difference was palpable. Thereafter, we had changed to Vanderhul speaker cables & the difference was subtle.


He then changed the power cable of the CD player which I guess weighs more than the CD Player itself.

I could find no difference though I was suggested that the sound has become more refined.

So I feel one should purely trust one's own ears and take the final call. If needed, listen twice or even thrice to see if there are any noticeable changes

 

[venkatcr]

Stereophile has put up an apologetic comparison of the Oppo BD-83 and the Lexicon BD-30. In the article, Kalman Rubinson, (to save face?) says he cannot find any difference between the two products. But to save advertisement dollars, he says, "but Lexicon's customer base probably would find some added value in both the presentation and Lexicon's dealer support. That will have greater meaning for some than for others."

Of course it is different matter that Audioholics called the whole thing Hogwash.

I really admire these guy's writing capabilities of not hurting anybody. Suri, do you want a more capable display of obfuscation?

Cheers