C.A.P.S. v2.0

[square_wave]

@ROC,

Yes, I am sure it has nothing to do with the USB ports. It definitely is the OS implementation. The usb out from the mac mini is the quickest way to decent sound if one owns a usb dac.

 

[SatMumbai]

I have tried to fit in some different kind of prefabricated HTPC (from Sony and Acer). The problem that I had with them is fan noise. The fans in them are too loud to focus on critical listening.

Also, I used some laptops from Dell & IBM to double the role as HTPC / Music Server and when I was using the headphone output from the Laptops or HTPCs I always got humming into my HiFi Set Up.

Macs on the other hand, had no such issues. So I believe that Apple has some good Quality Checks to stop Power Supply related things so that the outputs (be it USB or Optical or Analog out) is cleaner, if not the cleanest which in turns translates to better sound.

I have not done too much research in this area and the Mac Mini does cross the minimum threshold for keeping the noise to inaudible levels (be it fan related or power related)

However, this does not mean that Mac Mini is perfect. Ideally I want a fanless solution. Ideally I want the same good quality in a Windows based system. But I did not find any other hardware maker who is so 'anal' about the quality that I do not mind getting stuck in the Apple world and parallels help me to enjoy the benefits of Windows

So in summary, it is just that Apple's high QC, translates it into a reasonably good Music Server where as with the custom built machines, one needs to really understand the science of Power Supply spill overs onto Motherboard, thorough isolation of DC from the casing and low / zero db fans or fanless design to achieve or to beat what Mac Mini is offering. It is not just having the right motherboard, processor, casing but tying them together to make it work more effectively (like the way we put together a good HiFi Set Up) and if one can do this at a reasonable price I am happy to ditch the Mac Mini

Last but the most important Disclaimer: I am not associated with Apple any way. If I can make a statement here - 'I almost hate Apple as a company on its broad Principles, closed nature Software, Patent abuse but I love their Products for ease of use, design and above average (these days that is treated as best) hardware build quality.'

 

[SatMumbai]

@ROC,

Yes, I am sure it has nothing to do with the USB ports. It definitely is the OS implementation. The usb out from the mac mini is the quickest way to decent sound if one owns a usb dac.

I would like to reiterate my observations here. If it is my money, I would go for a reasonble priced DAC with Optical In and use the Optical Out from Mac Mini.
I have no doubt about the sound output from USB of Mac Mini (or for that matter some other HTPC) but I question the stand alone DAC units. Including Rega Dac, the reasonably prices DACs are very good with Optical Ins but perform OK with USB in as the USB In is more "we don't want to be left out" kind of implementation.

I owned the CP-800 which has the best USB implementation that I did not use the Optical In any more but again the traditional manufacturers in HiFi industry (read as some British Companies) are purposefully slow to adapt to the new ways to connect and want to milk the USB slowly.

That is why I like the newer brands like Peachtree or Oppo which are new blood and are fine to offer more to the customer

Given today, I would stick with Optical Ins or Co-axial Digital Ins of the reasonably priced DACs!
My 2 Paisa..

 

[square_wave]

I would like to reiterate my observations here. If it is my money, I would go for a reasonble priced DAC with Optical In and use the Optical Out from Mac Mini.
I have no doubt about the sound output from USB of Mac Mini (or for that matter some other HTPC) but I question the stand alone DAC units. Including Rega Dac, the reasonably prices DACs are very good with Optical Ins but perform OK with USB in as the USB In is more "we don't want to be left out" kind of implementation.

I owned the CP-800 which has the best USB implementation that I did not use the Optical In any more but again the traditional manufacturers in HiFi industry (read as some British Companies) are purposefully slow to adapt to the new ways to connect and want to milk the USB slowly.

That is why I like the newer brands like Peachtree or Oppo which are new blood and are fine to offer more to the customer

Given today, I would stick with Optical Ins or Co-axial Digital Ins of the reasonably priced DACs!
My 2 Paisa..

Optical out or analogue out from PC will be successful only if you attempt a build dedicated for such use. These are purpose made units and are in use in many high quality recording studios. They come complete with expensive relocking units and all that Jazz. If one wants to do this, it is an option.

Taking optical outs from regular pcs or apple products is asking for trouble. Many of us have tried this out. The last time I tried this out, the optical out from a dvd player sounded much better than one from a dedicated sound card playing a wav file. The software used for playing, OS implementation --- it is super big can of worms ! The dac which was used was a reimyo dap 777 and also a custom made one based on a audionote design.

Then we tried out a dedicated transport. It sounded far better ! These experiments were done some six years ago when we were determined to figure out differences between transports. The pi tracer from 47 labs and a custom made transport using the venerable Philips cd pro2m were also part of the test. It was a true ear opener .

The usb outs from pcs, pretty much insulate you from most of these issues if you are using regular pcs or apple products. But then you need dacs which have stellar asynchronous implementations.

 

[hydra]

I have tried to fit in some different kind of prefabricated HTPC (from Sony and Acer). The problem that I had with them is fan noise. The fans in them are too loud to focus on critical listening.

Also, I used some laptops from Dell & IBM to double the role as HTPC / Music Server and when I was using the headphone output from the Laptops or HTPCs I always got humming into my HiFi Set Up.

...

I'm fairly sure none of the commercially available consumer-oriented PCs would be good enough for MusicPC or HTPC duty in terms of noise. They're not really built for silence and so we can't blame them.

It is possible to build a dead silent Music PC if you choose the right components. Even if you need to add a fan (or fans), you can still choose to buy really silent fans like those made by Noctua, and even add a fan controller for further control. But this can get expensive, and with a good airy cabinet and a fanless motherboard, fans can be avoided altogether.

In my experience, typically the noisiest component in a PC that was designed to be silent is the hard drive. And it gets worse over time. The next worst offender is the SMPS.

With an SSD (and supporting network storage) and a PICO PSU (or some of the new Intel Atom boards that have direct DC power input) both these issues can be resolved. I generally prefer not using a the NIC in a Music PC, but I think this is one area where a compromise is probably justified.

But all this works only if one can build and tweak the PC yourself, or if one has access to a cooperative and patient tech guy. Else, a Mac Mini definitely ticks all the boxes.

When I have the funds to spare, I'll probably change my current cabinet (or just remove the fans altogether), get a 160w PICO PSU, take out my spinning storage HDD, and set up a Synology NAS for storage. That would leave the machine with zero moving parts and no SMPS, and the NAS would add the benefit of automatic backup.

 

[sidvee]

I'm fairly sure none of the commercially available consumer-oriented PCs would be good enough for MusicPC or HTPC duty in terms of noise.

When we are talking about noise - is it the fan noise that is being referred to or noise floor of the system? I use a generic Sony laptop as a music player and it has a fan that comes on and off, but at my listening position 8' away I cannot hear anything above the room ambient noise - I have an acoustically treated/dedicated room - and the noise floor of my system is the same as it is when I use my ayon cd2s cd player.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[pdhanwada]

When we are talking about noise - is it the fan noise that is being referred to or noise floor of the system? I use a generic Sony laptop as a music player and it has a fan that comes on and off, but at my listening position 8' away I cannot hear anything above the room ambient noise - I have an acoustically treated/dedicated room - and the noise floor of my system is the same as it is when I use my ayon cd2s cd player.
Cheers,
Sid

Agree with sidvee. I too run my pc into squeezebox. At 8 to 10 ft away there isnt much noise audible enough to interfere with the music. More so when music is playing.

I am curious on what all other advantages we would have when we have a exclusive music pc instead of regular pc played thru foobar/mtech hiface etc.

Thanks

 

[hydra]

@sidvee, I meant the fan noise.

I have a dedicated room for music and movies. It is not particularly treated except for a medium-thick rug, and two 2x4 panels of eggshell acoustic foam in the first reflection points. I also use a fabric recliner and keep the leatherite couch behind my recliner covered with a thick towel. I keep all doors and windows closed while listening to music, and I do have a very quiet neighbourhood (quite a bit away from a 4-wheeler-plying road). Also, I'm alone in the entire building, so no "ambient" family noises either heh heh.

All this makes for a very quiet room (except when I turn on the A/c, which I don't, while listening to music). In fact, I recently replaced the smallish ticking clock in my room with a continuous sweeping model because I could hear it tick, and it was driving me nuts. I also use a MusicPc that I've taken extra pains on, to make it quieter than usual.

I sit about 8 feet away from the rack. But during the quieter passages in Western Classical music, and vocals-only music, I can hear the low hum of the fans. It could be that I'm a bit extra sensitive to the noise (and I listen for it unconsciously), but it does irritate me a bit. Till recently the 7200 RPM HDD in the PC also use to make noise and drive me nuts. I replaced it last week with an SSD (for the OS & S/W) and a 5400 rpm WD Green disk that's so quiet I can hear it only at boot-up (for now).

 

[sidvee]

@sidvee, I meant the fan noise.

Ok - anyways I cannot hear my laptop fan noise at my listening position which, as I said is 8 feet away - even if there is a total fade to black in the music. My 14' x 12' dedicated listening room in my house is on a dead end street in a very quiet neighborhood, so external noise is also minimum. Room is treated with wall to wall carpet, 8' x 6' area rug, armstrong ceiling tiles, 6 GIK 244 panels and 2 echo buster panels.
Cheers,
Sid