Candid interview with Amir from Audiosciencereview
- Thread starter matazooma
- Start date
Decadent_Spectre
Well-Known Member
I hope Youtube deletes this video on the basis that it is an insult to music lovers.
The objectivists should go and hang out in the ASR forum with their misguided ilk.
The objectivists should go and hang out in the ASR forum with their misguided ilk.
s_mazumder
New Member
I can see how polarising this subject is!
I did enjoy the video, it covers a broad range of topic.
Music is much more than measurements. Is there any measurements of the tunes that completely uplifts your mood, and make you sing along or dance? How do you measure the voice of your favourite singer and say it measures better than the others you are not that fond of?
Also the kind of sound we like is very much shaped by the kind of music we prefer. If an audio equipment doesn’t suit our individual tastes, it doesn’t matter how good it measures, or how expensive it is. We listen to music, not the numbers.
But this guy does serve a purpose. I can’t avoid checking out how something I’m planning to buy measures up in his tests if it is there.
I did enjoy the video, it covers a broad range of topic.
Music is much more than measurements. Is there any measurements of the tunes that completely uplifts your mood, and make you sing along or dance? How do you measure the voice of your favourite singer and say it measures better than the others you are not that fond of?
Also the kind of sound we like is very much shaped by the kind of music we prefer. If an audio equipment doesn’t suit our individual tastes, it doesn’t matter how good it measures, or how expensive it is. We listen to music, not the numbers.
But this guy does serve a purpose. I can’t avoid checking out how something I’m planning to buy measures up in his tests if it is there.
Beast_of_burden
Active Member
ASR can be off putting only because some members are dogmatic in insisting that if it measures well it’s got to sound good, especially with DACs. Personally I find it hard to distinguish sound quality in DACs, there is a grain of truth in that dogma. But the certitude with which some members dismiss even a slight suggestion of subjectivity is often rude, very rude.
However, in the speaker reviews you do see Amir becoming just a wee bit subjective before realising it and backing off. The ASR dogma sits well with DACs but not so well with speakers, in these speaker reviews that same sense of certitude is much less present. You can see that ASR is pushing the envelope in terms of understanding the measurements and even devising new ways of using the measuring equipment and interpreting the results. I quite like the speaker reviews, it has helped me understand speaker measurements a lot better. The forums are another story, subjectivists better stay away.
However, in the speaker reviews you do see Amir becoming just a wee bit subjective before realising it and backing off. The ASR dogma sits well with DACs but not so well with speakers, in these speaker reviews that same sense of certitude is much less present. You can see that ASR is pushing the envelope in terms of understanding the measurements and even devising new ways of using the measuring equipment and interpreting the results. I quite like the speaker reviews, it has helped me understand speaker measurements a lot better. The forums are another story, subjectivists better stay away.
Really ? Why then did you ask about THD in the other thread where someone shared his impression of a new amp purchase ?
Get a life. You are one of the most double faced hypocrites I’ve seen on any forum.
Love4sound
Well-Known Member
On what basis are you saying it is an insult to music lovers? Why should objectivists go hang in ASR and what’s wrong in the forum? What makes objectivists wrong and what makes you right and the deciding factor?In this hobby every one are objective. See here for example. You found the c9 to be mediocre compared to a midrange TCL just cause it was brighter. Now brightness is a parameter and measurement in video which is again objective. Also you say here that you are tired of the dark. So again here you are being objective and proposing a bright room is better. Now in the eyes of objectivists and video enthusiasts a person with a eyes who find a mid range TCL to be better is considered to have a poor taste. Are you so against objectivists and enthusiasts that in their eyes your opinion will be a joke and you will be taken not more serious then a donkey? This is not some attack on you but you are very biased and objective which is fine as every one has their own preference but you go on and on accusing others to be objective especially enthusiasts. And the worst part is you don’t even tell what tv or speakers you are using. Is it that you use a tv that is rated to be garbage compared to c9 by enthusiasts and who are objective? Every thread you make a comment and when people ask you rational questions you show attitude with your response and never clarify
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Decadent_Spectre
Well-Known Member
Which thread? Do link. By the by there is a difference between understanding objectivity and using it as the sole criteria for a product.
Music (and HT) are subjective experiences. If one wants to be objective then they need not indulge in the product and be satisfied with it's measured performance because why should they use it when all that matters is a measurement. On that note one may simply try to measure brain response or levels of chemicals in the brain, why would they bother having emotion when they can measure this. Same goes for food or emotions towards a family member. What is the need to feel it if you can measure it. We perceive things subjectively, hence subjectively is the final form of assessment. People forget that objectivity is used as a means to and end, but for objectivists objectivity is not the means but the end itself. You make a lot of assumptions, people should decide for themselves what they like based on subjective preference. In this hobby only the minority (vocal minority) are objectivists. Brightness or the lack of can be measured using a standard but that is not how humans percieve it, not as a number but as a subjective sensory input.
The rest of your posts needn't need a reply. The mods may decide if it is appropriate.
Indranil Sen
Active Member
This topic has been highly debated ever since the measuring equipments started making its way into the audiophile community. In my opinion the performance of any electronics like food is very subjective regardless of how it is built and how it measures. Besides many audiophiles are not enough tech savvy to understand the last bit of information coming out of these measurements. So it really comes down to your profile and the personal preference that decide whether you look at the spec or listen to or do both before you buy any electronics. But one thing that all of us could perhaps agree upon is home trial of electronics that ultimately influences you purchase decision.
A couple of years back I visited a few major Hifi stores in Calcutta to guage the maturity of the Hifi industry in Cal/India and I found that home trial hardly existed in that market. To me that is the single most important factor when it comes to buying high-end electronics including speakers.
How do you guys currently buy high-end electronics in India? Is it all based on the spec?
Thanks
A couple of years back I visited a few major Hifi stores in Calcutta to guage the maturity of the Hifi industry in Cal/India and I found that home trial hardly existed in that market. To me that is the single most important factor when it comes to buying high-end electronics including speakers.
How do you guys currently buy high-end electronics in India? Is it all based on the spec?
Thanks
Love4sound
Well-Known Member
Once again the same old story. Totally an irrelevant response disregarding all facts and my questions. Yes Music and HT is a subjective experience based on each individual taste and preference which becomes objective to another. So end of the day in this hobby every one is objective having preference what suits them. So what you are doing here is forcing your opinions to be the absolute and you are attacking every other aspect in this hobby which is not subjectively convenient for you or your preference. Any one who reads your posts can easily understand that.
Decadent_Spectre
Well-Known Member
My posts are clear, if you misinterpret that then that would be your take. There is no objective in preference. Only the few are objective. The only thing that exists is some have a preference for objective data which is irrelevant for most as long as one enjoys any given said product.
Love4sound
Well-Known Member
Says the person who refuses to other members on what tv and speakers he uses in a forum for audio,video hobbyists. Now let me ask again what tv do you use? Only reason for you to not answer is in my explanation in the above post. Be in denial but others who read will understand clearly. I rest my case
The objectivists do hang out a lot on ASR
My opinion of ASR is simple. It is one of the data points that potential buyers should consider.
It can't entirely substitute for in person audition or other subjective opinions.
Cheers,
Raghu
Decadent_Spectre
Well-Known Member
The objectivists do hang out a lot on ASR
My opinion of ASR is simple. It is one of the data points that potential buyers should consider.
It can't entirely substitute for in person audition or other subjective opinions.
Cheers,
Raghu
A moderate's opinion and one more open to discussion. Yes you could take it as a datapoint but the objective spin is too strong to be useful. A manufacturer's spec sheet which publishes data without all the extra commentary and bias would be preferable. Again data can only go so far but in the absence of an audition there is little to go on.
Feel free to think what you like. There is no cure for delusion IMO.
Tuhin Lavania
Active Member
It's a time waste to argue with this guy.
I know what type he is. He selects posts where he can comment something which is exactly opposite to what is established or accepted by the majority.
Now i dont claim that whatever the majority accepts is always right but this guy does this for attention and to be " Yeah man im a cool guy " type.
Suppose, OLEDs. Now OLEDs are wonderful panels, but this guy, in order to get attention and to show the world that Yeah he knows something, says that OLEDs are trash. Now that gets everybody's attention.
I can make out several of this guy's statements like these. Very Idiotic to say the least.
And whenever you counter him, he always responds to the age old " Ive written my reply in plain english, its upto you how you interpret it " lmao what a joker
Ive never liked the movie Forrest Gump, but that doesnt make it trash, right ? Same thing for OLEDs. You dont like them, fine. But dont spew trash saying they are trash.
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Love4sound
Well-Known Member
He for sure is one wanna be enthusiast. This is a hobbyist forum and he is refusing to say what TV he uses but engages in all tv related threads. For sure he is using some average tv which is nothing wrong but has some inferiority complex that in the enthusiast world his taste on tv may be just mediocre and will be laughed upon and hence being secretive and bashing enthusiasts, objectivists.
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
@matazooma, thanks for sharing this interview. I liked it.
I have been following ASR even though I think I tend to make subjective choices when it comes to audio equipment.
It was very good and informative to hear Amir (?) explain his craft and science. I still have to google terms like “dither”
He does make a strong case for making sure the design and measurements are good (not just appearance) while short listing audio components to buy.
I have this occasional unreasonable fear that if every manufacturer created perfectly measuring components, all audio equipment would sound the same. (No diversity is becoming fashionable now a days?)
It’s a long interview, but from the 58th minute on it got interesting for me.
I wish the interviewer spoke less (bit of Arnab; without the malice)
I feel much more informed after watching this interview. Thanks again
Edit: I feel a good way to deal with trolls is not to respond to their provocative comments. Responding means they get the attention they want. Ignoring them works better and we can stay on topic.
Enkay78
Well-Known Member
Measurements are what will cure the Audiophillaics from the snake oil industry. Many gullibles are yet to get to know that they are conned…..because they are made ignorant by a vested industry.
Yes music is subjective and for our own enjoyment. But music production/audio has been based on science and objectivism from the beginning. How do you tune your musical tools? Do you go by a one person subjective parameter or an objective consensus parameters of the subjective of musicians?
How have opera evolved with audio? Does the recording industry conned by the snake oil ‘audiophilia’?
How did the idea get entrenched that studio sound/music are ‘clinical’ whereas home stereo are not and studio sound are not ‘good enough for home music’? Who spreads such ‘subjectivism’ and on what basis had this been sustained all these years? Who are the major proponents of these vested interest?
Ok snobbery and elitism is human nature, but it’s not the only ‘subjectivism’ to enjoy music.
Why is so hard to digest that objective parameters do give a sense of direction/reference to how the music reproduction system may behave ….and to have a TRANSPARENT SYSTEM means there should not be ‘coloration’/‘distortion’ from the audio equipments?
For those enthusiast without the facility of ‘audition’ (mantra), how can they assess the performance of the devices?
‘GOLDEN EARS’ of another person cannot substitute the own experience. YES…….but objective parameters do tell whether your audio devices are lying or true to the music reproduction.
I for one have saved a lot of money ….and feel satisfied with confidence that whatever I buy based on objective parameters are worth my hard earned money……even the Amazon basics 16g speaker cables/Belkin extension…..and the biggest power conditioner the 4.5 kw luminous inverter (off course not specifically bought for my musical need but for my home power supply. I have a 10kw solar plant with ABB inverter system …besides)
And yes I like my Topping D90se and Sabaj D5. Thought of buying denafrips/maganepan……all stopped. Now I am critical of the objective performance before I ‘buy’ (my money is hard earned).
Just sharing my perspective on the hobby.
Btw @Love4sound i also bought the umik ……playing with REW and room acoustics. I follow your measurements.
Yes music is subjective and for our own enjoyment. But music production/audio has been based on science and objectivism from the beginning. How do you tune your musical tools? Do you go by a one person subjective parameter or an objective consensus parameters of the subjective of musicians?
How have opera evolved with audio? Does the recording industry conned by the snake oil ‘audiophilia’?
How did the idea get entrenched that studio sound/music are ‘clinical’ whereas home stereo are not and studio sound are not ‘good enough for home music’? Who spreads such ‘subjectivism’ and on what basis had this been sustained all these years? Who are the major proponents of these vested interest?
Ok snobbery and elitism is human nature, but it’s not the only ‘subjectivism’ to enjoy music.
Why is so hard to digest that objective parameters do give a sense of direction/reference to how the music reproduction system may behave ….and to have a TRANSPARENT SYSTEM means there should not be ‘coloration’/‘distortion’ from the audio equipments?
For those enthusiast without the facility of ‘audition’ (mantra), how can they assess the performance of the devices?
‘GOLDEN EARS’ of another person cannot substitute the own experience. YES…….but objective parameters do tell whether your audio devices are lying or true to the music reproduction.
I for one have saved a lot of money ….and feel satisfied with confidence that whatever I buy based on objective parameters are worth my hard earned money……even the Amazon basics 16g speaker cables/Belkin extension…..and the biggest power conditioner the 4.5 kw luminous inverter
(off course not specifically bought for my musical need but for my home power supply. I have a 10kw solar plant with ABB inverter system …besides)And yes I like my Topping D90se and Sabaj D5. Thought of buying denafrips/maganepan……all stopped. Now I am critical of the objective performance before I ‘buy’ (my money is hard earned).
Just sharing my perspective on the hobby.
Btw @Love4sound i also bought the umik ……playing with REW and room acoustics. I follow your measurements.
Love4sound
Well-Known Member
End of the day every one is going to use the ears and eyes to finalize. The hypocrisy and judgemental comments from some one who is not even willing to respond to any questions is very strange and refusing to share what TV one uses is not normal behavior in a forum like this.Well lets stop wasting time and get back to business. Congrats with the Umik. It really saves a lot of time in calibrating your subwoofer and integrating it with your mains. Start a thread and share your experience or clarify your doubts. Should be funMeasurements are what will cure the Audiophillaics from the snake oil industry. Many gullibles are yet to get to know that they are conned…..because they are made ignorant by a vested industry.
Yes music is subjective and for our own enjoyment. But music production/audio has been based on science and objectivism from the beginning. How do you tune your musical tools? Do you go by a one person subjective parameter or an objective consensus parameters of the subjective of musicians?
How have opera evolved with audio? Does the recording industry conned by the snake oil ‘audiophilia’?
How did the idea get entrenched that studio sound/music are ‘clinical’ whereas home stereo are not and studio sound are not ‘good enough for home music’? Who spreads such ‘subjectivism’ and on what basis had this been sustained all these years? Who are the major proponents of these vested interest?
Ok snobbery and elitism is human nature, but it’s not the only ‘subjectivism’ to enjoy music.
Why is so hard to digest that objective parameters do give a sense of direction/reference to how the music reproduction system may behave ….and to have a TRANSPARENT SYSTEM means there should not be ‘coloration’/‘distortion’ from the audio equipments?
For those enthusiast without the facility of ‘audition’ (mantra), how can they assess the performance of the devices?
‘GOLDEN EARS’ of another person cannot substitute the own experience. YES…….but objective parameters do tell whether your audio devices are lying or true to the music reproduction.
I for one have saved a lot of money ….and feel satisfied with confidence that whatever I buy based on objective parameters are worth my hard earned money……even the Amazon basics 16g speaker cables/Belkin extension…..and the biggest power conditioner the 4.5 kw luminous inverter
And yes I like my Topping D90se and Sabaj D5. Thought of buying denafrips/maganepan……all stopped. Now I am critical of the objective performance before I ‘buy’ (my money is hard earned).
Just sharing my perspective on the hobby.
Btw @Love4sound i also bought the umik ……playing with REW and room acoustics. I follow your measurements.
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