Candid interview with Amir from Audiosciencereview

[Analogous]

To balance out here is a interview with Nelson Pass:

The Occasional Podcast: Nelson Pass Of Pass Labs & First Watt - Part 2 on Apple Podcasts

Show The Occasional Podcast, Ep Nelson Pass Of Pass Labs & First Watt - Part 2 - 27 Apr 2020

podcasts.apple.com

 

[Hari Iyer]

IMO, both objective measurements and subjective evaluations are equally important, none more than the other. I shall try and explain this with an analogy ---
Suppose you are going for an eye testing with an optician. Imagine the optician not having a objective instrument like a Refractometer and have only subjective measurement tools. What number will he start to begin with? He may be at loss to understand your exact lens and may have to try many different lens before he arrives at something close.

If the optician have an refractometer he knows from the reading the closest lens that will be suitable for your eye and directly goes for that lens based on the objective reading. That way he saves time not wasting with other lens. But an optician will never manufacture your glasses based on the objective measurements only. He requires the subjective measurement to fine tune your exact number for your spectacle.

In a similar way the objective measurements for a speaker are required to know exactly where the shortcomings of the speaker are and where the designer will require a filter or some other compensation to be added. Just listening by ears and fine tuning will not be enough as you as a customer don't have the same environment like the designer - like the same ears and same room as the designer. Objective measurement likewise helps to save time and cost for the designer and helps to quickly arrive at on the required crossover design faster. But again the designer will not only rely on the objective measurement and will fine tune the design based on his (an others) subjective listening criteria and based on his listening skills and experience will be able to do minor adjustments (called voicing) for his design.

Take for instance my own measurements below,, btw, i dont have golden ears like most FMs do and i have to rely on the objective measurements to arrive at my final outcome,

As you can see with the above measurements there is a peak at the mid-frequency around 1.6KHz which on listening i am not able to easily identify (this measurement is for the OB speaker without subwoofer). Without measuring i would have never been able to identify this peak as i dont have golden ears.

Below is the image after compensating for the peak at 1.6KHz,



Only after fine tuning and later listening i could actually identiy the harshness at mid-frequency otherwise ignorance would have been bliss for me.

Check out the stereophile interview with John Dunlavy where he explains why objective measurements are important. I try and follow everything that is mentioned here as much as possible,

Loudspeaker designer John Dunlavy: By the Numbers...

One of the characteristic traits, I have found, that defines the loudspeaker designer is that they are loners—they seem to avoid one another's company as if on purpose. But if ever you sit down with a designer, all you need to do to open him up is to ask him what he feels to be important in...

www.stereophile.com

 

[Analogous]

Suppose you are going for an eye testing with an optician. Imagine the optician not having a objective instrument like a Refractometer and have only subjective measurement tools. What number will he start to begin with? He may be at loss to understand your exact lens and may have to try many different lens before he arrives at something close.

If the optician have an refractometer he knows from the reading the closest lens that will be suitable for your eye and directly goes for that lens based on the objective reading. That way he saves time not wasting with other lens. But an optician will never manufacture your glasses based on the objective measurements only. He requires the subjective measurement to fine tune your exact number for your spectacle.

Hari, I get what you are trying to say. But the example used may not fit to illustrate what you are explaining here.
The final decision on the selection of the most suitable lens is always made by the client. When the prescription of the lenses are made purely based on measurements alone often the users are dissatisfied with the glasses. This is why optometrists after doing all the measurements ask the client which set of glasses are best before finalising.
Also lenses are mass produced in different specs and finally grinder (ground) down to the final spherical specs.

I do agree that any serious manufacturer of audio equipment should publish objective measurements of various parameters relevant to the product so that buyers can use this to short list for auditions.

 

[matazooma]

Another one of Amir's interview.

 

[prateekatasniya]

I hope Youtube deletes this video on the basis that it is an insult to music lovers.

The objectivists should go and hang out in the ASR forum with their misguided ilk.

What if, someone posts that hifivision moderators should remove you from the forum?

If you can be polite..
people will be willing to listen to your point in a open minded way.

And if people genuinely feel that your points are right then they will follow your words. Share some proofs, research data etc. To make people believe.

So maybe you should read the book " how to win friends and influence people"

Good luck .

 

[prateekatasniya]

Measurements are very important. But does that tell you the character of the girl ?

Sir this analogy isn't right. And would get seriously backlash.

A car can be a better analogy.
In a car both objective and subjective aspects matter.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

What if, someone posts that hifivision moderators should remove you from the forum?

If you can be polite..
people will be willing to listen to your point in a open minded way.

And if people genuinely feel that your points are right then they will follow your words. Share some proofs, research data etc. To make people believe.

So maybe you should read the book " how to win friends and influence people"

Good luck .

If the mods want to remove me that is upto them.

I am polite, if people find it rude then that's on them.

Whether people follow my words or not is not really of any interest to me. You like you follow, you don't like you ignore, all's good. Proof and data is for objectivists. My method is listen and decide for yourself.

I'll pass on the book, thanks very much for the suggestion though.

Good luck to you too.

 

[Love4sound]

What if, someone posts that hifivision moderators should remove you from the forum?

If you can be polite..
people will be willing to listen to your point in a open minded way.

And if people genuinely feel that your points are right then they will follow your words. Share some proofs, research data etc. To make people believe.

So maybe you should read the book " how to win friends and influence people"

Good luck .

Hahaha Prateek being Prateek. Trying to help a poor soul even if it is a lost cause

 

[Hari Iyer]

Hari, I get what you are trying to say. But the example used may not fit to illustrate what you are explaining here.
The final decision on the selection of the most suitable lens is always made by the client. When the prescription of the lenses are made purely based on measurements alone often the users are dissatisfied with the glasses. This is why optometrists after doing all the measurements ask the client which set of glasses are best before finalising.
Also lenses are mass produced in different specs and finally grinder (ground) down to the final spherical specs.

I do agree that any serious manufacturer of audio equipment should publish objective measurements of various parameters relevant to the product so that buyers can use this to short list for auditions.

Again going by what you say with the opticians anology - Even if after subjective testing the spectakle is made wrong and does not suit you, then with the same anology can apply to designing a speaker only by listening. By only listening your evaluation can depend upon your mood for that day, the selection of music and you don't remember what you heard 20 minutes ago and definitely don't have a reference to compare. It's only you can listen how they are sounding now. This is what I do during my subjetive evaluation - I don't compare how the setup sounds than before - I just check how they are sounding now. I can't remember how they were sounding an hour ago let alone days, weeks and months ago.

 

[firearm12]

People trying to interpret music through graphs, what a time we live in. Science provides tools for creation, let it do its job and finish there, rest should be left on senses. People these days seem to forget that we are smaller than a spec of dust in this universe and that we know less than 1% of of how all this works. So just enjoy what you like without thinking why you should like it.

 

[sound1]

If the mods want to remove me that is upto them.

I am polite, if people find it rude then that's on them.

Whether people follow my words or not is not really of any interest to me. You like you follow, you don't like you ignore, all's good. Proof and data is for objectivists. My method is listen and decide for yourself.

I'll pass on the book, thanks very much for the suggestion though.

Good luck to you too.

No grudge with the content you post (you're entitled to your opinions) but it is weird hearing you say you don't care about what others think of your post. HFV is a social network platform, it works by sharing things, acknowledging & responding to feedbacks and by paricipating in a constructive discussion. Have you considered a different platform since all you want is to broadcast?

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

No grudge with the content you post (you're entitled to your opinions) but it is weird hearing you say you don't care about what others think of your post. HFV is a social network platform, it works by sharing things, acknowledging & responding to feedbacks and by paricipating in a constructive discussion. Have you considered a different platform since all you want is to broadcast?

Your erroneously assuming I want to broadcast. I'm here like many others, just something to do. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[k-pad]

Have (in my head) a very long post on this topic. But this seems like neither the place nor time for it.
So, will just say one thing: Have learned something or the other from most, if not all posters, especially those on this thread. We can always keep it civil if we choose to.
--

Just putting my (noob) opinion on the topic out here:
Objectivity and Subjectivity are not mutually exclusive, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER.

Listen to as much as you can with your own ears. Watch as much as you can with your own eyes. Then read everything you can find about the product you are interested in. DO look at their measures. I am fairly certain once you do all that, you will know up to a certain level what you will be most happy with.

Personally, ASR's electronics measures have been very valuable in my own research. But even ASR's all-channel driven figures for some AVRs for which Amir does mention them seem a bit bloated from what FMs like @ankitbhargava and @sandeepmohan have experienced. Now, it is up to me to decide.

Extending this example, the best way is to invest in an AVR with pre-outs and figure out for myself in my room. Personally, here I'd put Ankit's and Sandeep's personal opinion over ASR's all-channels driven figure. And then once I have an AVR in my room, will figure it out for myself.

ASR's speaker measures, on the other hand, have not helped me at all. For one, they have tested a limited number of brands, and within that a limited number of models. And if ASR is not doing anechoic like the publications who have access to the Canadian govt institute, I'd rather believe a Martin Logan who says we tested our speakers in a bare room and made our product, here are the numbers, see if you like them.

ASR's sub measures are still nascent from what I have seen, so no comment on that.

When it comes to measures visually, I really love how RTINGS does it. Gives their methodology, and leaves useful tips about what could be useful for whom. Even there, I could probably nitpick, but they do offer a great service for the average buyer of visual equipment.

Now off to listen to Amir's interview(s). Should be fun.

PS: This is a short post. Not the long one (which I have in my head)

 

[prateekatasniya]

If the mods want to remove me that is upto them.

I am polite, if people find it rude then that's on them.

Whether people follow my words or not is not really of any interest to me. You like you follow, you don't like you ignore, all's good. Proof and data is for objectivists. My method is listen and decide for yourself.

I'll pass on the book, thanks very much for the suggestion though.

Good luck to you too.

Ohh.. that's sad..
I guess the meaning of polite is wrong in your dictionary.
Or maybe wrong in my dictionary?
"having or showing behaviour that is respectful and considerate of other people."
This is the meaning of polite in my dictionary.


If our posts don't help us or others on the forum then what's the point of posting?

 

[prateekatasniya]

People trying to interpret music through graphs, what a time we live in. Science provides tools for creation, let it do its job and finish there, rest should be left on senses. People these days seem to forget that we are smaller than a spec of dust in this universe and that we know less than 1% of of how all this works. So just enjoy what you like without thinking why you should like it.

"Science provides tools for creation"

Most of the objective data relates closely with subjective data.
Not all though.
Subjective and objective both are equally important for a relatively experienced person.
Subjective is more important for newbies. ( Also for newbies who are unaware that they are newbies )

 

[ssf]

Sir this analogy isn't right. And would get seriously backlash.

A car can be a better analogy.
In a car both objective and subjective aspects matter.

Sir,

My apologies if my post hurt your sensibilities. It was in humor to elicit a few laughs in a thread that had all the markings of going to the um, do I dare use the word 'Dogs' here ?

'Seriously backlash' ? You now have me worried.

 

[Indranil Sen]

I would be really curious to find out how many of us, the audiophiles, buy high-end electronics just by looking at the spec or at the test data w/o doing any audition. People could argue about it for the rest of their life but the reality is that most of us who don't have unlimited resources use a balanced approach when buying any item let alone an audio gear. But when it comes to this discussion unfortunately the passion quickly goes out of control. Same story all over the world.
However I haven't found a single response or an initiative or any discussion that focuses on building a credible Hifi market in India where the buying process is made relatively easier or at-least bring it to the same level as it is in other countries. As I see it, unless this Hifi market supports a home trial where buys are able to touch, feel and experience the performance of audio gears such products will not get liquidity in the market regardless of how much we talk about objective measurements.

 

[Analogous]

This thread has me thinking and reexamining my personal steps and processes when I buy new equipment.
So here goes (ramblin’ on):
1. First: I have mild GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) characterised by never being satisfied for long with whatever I have.
2. I would describe my desires in this regard as focused on “mid fi” and seeking value in good used equipment” rather than seeking the “latest and greatest”.
3. My spend mostly determined by the budget limitations I have in mind and success I have in selling off or exchanging what I don’t want anymore.
4. I seek out online opinions of the usual suspects when it comes to reviews, this includes subjectivists as also measurementists (Stereophile, ASR). When both camps find something praiseworthy my interest is piqued.
5. I also google and look for user opinions in various forums online on such items to get a better idea of how they match with other components, reliability, problems and of course opinions.
6. I try my best to audition equipment before buying but I often buy unheard-unseen too based on my impressions formed based on the above. Some have been disappointing but most have met my expectations.
7. I have gradually better at reading between the lines and spotting what reviewers are not saying in reviews. (Antenna for cautiously worded praise?) I am often confused, but I have grown to accept this and move on.
8. My tastes are eclectic, I like to explore new gear, and I don’t identify myself as belonging to any particular camp objectivists or subjectivists, (because i value both approaches and I realise I don’t have to belong exclusively to either)
9. I have respect and admiration for several forum members knowledge and experience; some I like and am friends with. I seek their opinions occasionally.
10. It’s a nice round number and would have been strangely satisfying to reach, but I can’t think of something to add at this time.

 

[Hari Iyer]

People trying to interpret music through graphs, what a time we live in. Science provides tools for creation, let it do its job and finish there, rest should be left on senses. People these days seem to forget that we are smaller than a spec of dust in this universe and that we know less than 1% of of how all this works. So just enjoy what you like without thinking why you should like it.

IMO, even listening by your ears is a kind of objective measurement. Your ear works as a mic and the brain like a software/hardware to process this information. Most people don't have good listening skills or experience and don't have a good reference to compare. For them everything sounds the same.

I have given the example of tasting coffee at a coffee-shop before too. Only if you drink coffee at 50+ locations you have the experience to tell accurately which out of the 50 was the best. We may drink coffee only at 2 to 3 locations and judge that the location 2 was the best coffee. How poorly will that judgement be. Similar is the case with subjective listening of speakers - we don't have a good base-line to judge quality of sound and there is no substitute for going down and listening. Looking at graphs don't matter either as i can look at a cup of coffee and admire how good they look but tasting the coffee and smelling its aroma is altogether a different experience.

 

[msankadi]

IMO, even listening by your ears is a kind of objective measurement. Your ear works as a mic and the brain like a software/hardware to process this information. Most people don't have good listening skills or experience and don't have a good reference to compare. For them everything sounds the same.

I have given the example of tasting coffee at a coffee-shop before too. Only if you drink coffee at 50+ locations you have the experience to tell accurately which out of the 50 was the best. We may drink coffee only at 2 to 3 locations and judge that the location 2 was the best coffee. How poorly will that judgement be. Similar is the case with subjective listening of speakers - we don't have a good base-line to judge quality of sound and there is no substitute for going down and listening. Looking at graphs don't matter either as i can look at a cup of coffee and admire how good they look but tasting the coffee and smelling its aroma is altogether a different experience.

I agree, I think looking at a graph where the machine is interpreting the sound or listening to the advice of someone who has been to 100 coffee shops might be less subjective if you know you just have been to two coffee shops (this is true in my case) . I would rather develop taste for "good coffee", rated by experience, when I am new to coffee