CD Player Arcam FMJ CD23T CD Player or Cambridge Audio 840C

[anm]

A slight OT - does arcam rdac come close to any good arcam cdp?

 

[ajay124]

Have heard the CA 840C with a CA Amp and Sonus Faber Liuto's.Fairly decent, but by no means a giant killer!Personally I prefer the cdp's made by Arcam/Cyrus/Rega in that price range.

 

[mitul mehta]

Thanks Asit for a wounderful and detailed explatation, Yes arcam is old and i am getting it at 65K and new cambridge 840C at 75K. I dont mine spending 10K here and there. I will do audition of these both CDPs. My pair of speakers are quad 22L and amp is class A marantz.

 

[Asit]

First a disclaimer: I own the CA 740c and have extensive experience with it. I have only limited experience of hearing the 840c at a dealer's place. They sound similar and some folks on the net actually like the 740c better. I cannot say more on the comparison of the two because of my lack of experience with the 840c.

Now, let me just say this: it is NOT absolutely correct to proclaim that there exists a perfectly neutral set-up in this world. They do not exist. Period. If anybody is trying to tell you otherwise, it's a misrepresentation. What I look for in a system is first and foremost the tonality, if I find it at an acceptable level, then all else. Every equipment has a particular voicing, and yes even the very expensive ones too and coupled with the cables (which also have this voicing) they produce a particular tonality. We stick to the ones we like.

Now let us not drag this discussion to a disproportionate degree. The OP is looking for a CDP within a limited budget, and that's why he is looking at an approx 7-year old Arcam CDP or a CA CDP (high up in the CA chain). From this, one can roughly judge/guess the over-all system the OP is aiming for. Whatever I wrote is in this context, and I have never said the Arcam CD23T is worse than the CA 840c. In fact, I like the Arcam brand and at different points of time I have considered buying amp/cdp from them. But they have their limitations too (see below). On the other hand, I also find it very hard to accept the subjective view that the Arcam is the supreme and the CA is a trash as an absolute view. There is NO reason to think that an ATC-SL combination is the only benchmark in the whole world every other equipment has to be judged against (although I have huge respect for the potential of such a set-up). The OP certainly does not have that kind of equipment at hand, or so it seems. It would be huge mistake to assume that my amp-speaker combination would lag miles behind, at least for certain genres of music. But blatant statements are being made from that assumption. Some of Dr. Bass's description of the CA makes me feel like I am both deaf and dumb, and obviously never heard music of any kind, live or in any reasonable system. Dr. Bass, I know you honestly expressed your opinion and I know you did not mean anything bad, but that was my impression, honestly. Sorry, I am not an audiophile I guess.

Because of my profession I have never been able to afford high-end equipments. May be this is a blessing in some form. Because across forums all over, I find the 2-channel crowd is 'upgrading' for no reason at all, and at times to equipments of lower quality, audiogon forums included. my humble advice would be to upgrade the level of musical appreciation before they engage in this kind of activity (a lot of sincere effort, toil and some talent is needed for this upgrade, believe me). BTW, at times I find many equipments on sale there which are held very very highly by the 2-channel pundits all across the world. This is a very poor way to judge an equipment, I am sorry to say.

The CA players have their limitations, stated very clearly in my posts, and I can post more on them. So does to some extent some more expensive players including the Arcam CDPs in general. To give an example, last weekend a friend and I went to audition a new system in Kolkata. The system consists of a new tube amp which has made quite a name for itself internationally and is now available in India. The new speakers are a highly acclaimed pair of floorstandars in their new avatar. The CDP was an Arcam 192. I immediately noticed the speakers in their new avatar are quite improved from their previous version which I didn't like at least certain aspects of. The amp seemed excellent. However, very soon we realized the sound lacked a bit of body especially in the midrange and bass - this is of course in comparison to my system at home. The IC between CDP and amp was changed. Now there was more body, but even then not up to the standards expected I'd say. Since the other equipments are pretty safe from that perspective, and I know the second IC very well (because I use it between my Nak deck and my amp), I'd suspect it's the Arcam 192 that is responsible for this slight shortcoming of the system. I hope I am correct in my assessment. But, you get the point: first of all it is not easy to determine these things and secondly nothing is perfect. One needs to get the proper matching done at one's permissible budget.

I only hope the OP benefits from some of these discussions and keeps his mind and ears open. It's clear that I do not like the CA bashing, and I think some of their better CDPs perhaps deserve better. I do not think they are giant-killers, but (I do not want any killers in my system any way) they are very reasonable players in my estimation and can do justice in many mid-level systems at least without problems. That's all I was trying to say, if you look at my first post carefully. The Arcam is an established player in this business and you cannot ever go very wrong with an Arcam IMO. Yes, I have heard the Cyrus 6 CDP and I can say that I'd never buy that CDP, but of course that's only my decision and I can explain why.

There are NO absolutes in this business. Even if I ever can assemble the best I can think of under my humble roof, I would not say that.

Regards.

 

[sidvee]

Thanks Asit for a wounderful and detailed explatation, Yes arcam is old and i am getting it at 65K and new cambridge 840C at 75K. I dont mine spending 10K here and there. I will do audition of these both CDPs. My pair of speakers are quad 22L and amp is class A marantz.

A quick blurb here - nothing to do with the sound quality as I have not heard one of the players in this comparo - but please be careful in buying a pre-owned Cd player. IMO a Cd player is the weak link in a system to buy preowned because of the moving parts involved.
Cheers
Sid

 

[square_wave]

Completely agree with you Asit. It is the buyer to decide what he likes. The discussion here is about the preferences of various audiophiles and what floats their boat. Different audiophiles have different reference points as their ideal. It could be what they currently own or it could be something they have extensive experience with. They always compare and come to conclusions. The opinions they present is based upon such conclusions.

Asit.the CD 23t is a completely different animal compared to the cd 73 or cd 192. There is no comparison.

PS: I personally think the older Arcam FMJ players are their best efforts.The CD 23t is a classic. It is serious effort at creating music out of digital bits at these kind of price points. If the cd 23t is available new at 65k now, it is a freakin good deal. The newer Arcam players are more populist in the designs. More about paper specs than resolving capabilities.

 

[odyssey]

Thanks Asit for a wounderful and detailed explatation, Yes arcam is old and i am getting it at 65K and new cambridge 840C at 75K. I dont mine spending 10K here and there. I will do audition of these both CDPs. My pair of speakers are quad 22L and amp is class A marantz.

I will throw in the Ayon CD-07 to the list if you are ready to push your budget up a bit more hyeah:

cheers

 

[Dr.Bass]

On the other hand, I also find it very hard to accept the subjective view that the Arcam is the supreme and the CA is a trash as an absolute view. There is NO reason to think that an ATC-SL combination is the only benchmark in the whole world every other equipment has to be judged against (although I have huge respect for the potential of such a set-up). The OP certainly does not have that kind of equipment at hand, or so it seems. It would be huge mistake to assume that my amp-speaker combination would lag miles behind, at least for certain genres of music. But blatant statements are being made from that assumption. Some of Dr. Bass's description of the CA makes me feel like I am both deaf and dumb, and obviously never heard music of any kind, live or in any reasonable system. Dr. Bass, I know you honestly expressed your opinion and I know you did not mean anything bad, but that was my impression, honestly. Sorry, I am not an audiophile I guess.

So, what I had least wanted is kind of happening:sad:.
I will have to clear out some confusion here.

1. I did not hear the CA in an ATC-SL combination. I have heard it in two other combinations. One of them was ATC active speakers and the other was a Plinius-Dynaudio combo. I have also heard them on Marantz-Morduant short combo but it was not recent. So please do not assume I am talking about my own setup. Not at all.

2. I have not heard the Arcam on ATC-SL combo as well. I have heard it with Acoustic Portrait-Plinius combo and Acoustic Portrait-Acoustic Portrait combo.
I have heard other Arcams in many different setups but not on ATC.
This is just to clarify that my own setup was never the reference.

Now, please understand I have no intentions of trashing one product completely and lifting the other product. Why would I do that ?
I would do that only if I know I do not enjoy a particular product even a wee bit. Unfortunately NAD and CA have always given me that kind of an experience. What do I do ? Cant I express what I felt while auditioning these products ? The day I hear a combo where a CA is doing well, I will be equally enthusiastic to report that as well !!! Asit, it is very much possible that yours is such a setup. There would be more setups like that but I havent heard them. But, I have heard some decent setups where I did not like the CA. I mean where is the bitterness coming in ?

In audio almost everything can be dismissed or justified but just one statement "To each his own" or something like "System synergy is the key". Does that mean one cannot have an opinion ?

There are many products I have heard on which I do not have an opinion. But there are some products which I DO have an opinion. The question is, should I state it or not ?

 

[saikat]

How would an Audio Analogue PAGANINI or Sim Audio Moon .5 or 1 compare to the above choices and budget?

 

[Asit]

Dr. Bass,
As I have already explained to you, I have immense respect for both your equipment and your judgment (let me correct that, some of your judgment). I just wanted to say yours is an individual opinion, and so is mine. In general I do not feel that excited about the other CA products (especially their amps), but these CDPs (especially the one I own, the 740c and the 840c reportedly) sounded very different from the usual CA sound and definitely a lot better. I never said they were high-end, but especially at the price they are available in India (compared to hugely inflated prices for some others like Cyrus) they are decent ones to look at. They become even more reasonable if the owner is willing to do a few obvious mods (not very expensive) to take them to a decent audiophile level. I just want everybody to have an open mind. Believe me, I was very biased against CA products before I heard the 740c. In the last year I spent quite a lot ( 2 DSLRs with one lens costing substantially more than the body, 2 expensive holidays, a reasonably expensive expensive home PC with a Dell monitor, laser printer for home etc). I could easily have squeezed in a CD upgrade, if I really wanted. Frankly I did not feel the urge, especially after hearing many very expensive set-ups at different parts of the year. As I always say, it could be that my evaluations are very flawed, but I am listening to music with some degree of enjoyment at home whenever I have the time. I hope the end result of all this discussion is that people keep an open mind and evaluate to their best ability without paying unnecessarily huge attention to brand name etc.

Regards.

 

[venkatcr]

Saikat, the OP has asked for a specific comparison between two brands/players. let us not complicate issues by bringing in more players. We can do that, if needed, in a separate thread.

Cheers

 

[Dr.Bass]

As I always say, it could be that my evaluations are very flawed, but I am listening to music with some degree of enjoyment at home whenever I have the time.

Evaluations if done with your ears are never flawed IMO. So please do not question your evaluation. Your setup could be playing at a different synergy level with the CA in place compared to setups I have heard CA in.

 

[square_wave]

Going by all the posts, it looks like very few folks have experience with both the players under discussion.

Asit is comparing the 740C to Arcam 192. The Arcam 192 cannot be compared to the CD 23T (completely different ball game). And the 840C is different from the 740C. How did Venkat come to the conclusion that Asit has direct experience with both these players and drag the gentleman into this debate ?

 

[venkatcr]

How did Venkat come to the conclusion that Asit has direct experience with both these players and drag the gentleman into this debate ?

I said one or both. And I also think Asit has given the most useful information.

Cheers

 

[square_wave]

I said one or both. And I also think Asit has given the most useful information.

Cheers

One or both ! ?
Apparently Asit has a very indirect experience with the 840C.
He said I have only limited experience of hearing the 840c at a dealer's place
No experience at all with Arcam CD 23T.

We have folks here who have had extensive or more experience with both the players in question. So how does Asits most useful information hold up ?
I am very curious about your comment most useful information ?

The key point is that CD23T is one of the cd players in question. And very few people who are discussing on this thread have any experience with this player. How will the discussion and the conclusions drawn be of any relevance unless someone who knows both the players comment? I do not see any logic here.
Asit is essentially commenting on how much he likes his player which is a 740c and I do not think any of us have any disagreement with it. There are plenty of folks out there who loves CA players. In my personal opinion they sound terrific for their price point (new retail).

Please remember that the discussion is about a comparison of the two players.

Asit, please bear with me here

 

[ajay124]

Did a bit of research on the Arcam FMJ23T
.
Arcam FMJ 23T - Dream Home Cinema

From the review:
"The CD23 incorporates a unique digital to analogue conversion (DAC) system developed by a company based near Cambridge called dCS (Data Conversion Systems). They are a leading professional audio company of high repute. Their patented Ring DAC design has been adopted as a reference standard in many of the worlds best recording studios. dCSs high performance studio solution is very expensive, but their technology was so elegant that we were determined to find a way to bring their system within reach of committed music lovers at a more affordable price. After many years of joint research and development, and a lot of blood, sweat and tears, the project to generate a custom chip set for the Ring DAC was completed in 1998."

The CD23T's main claim to fame seems to be the 'unique' Ring Dac.

Two years later in a review for Arcam CD33T

Arcam FMJ CD33T CD Player by Alvin Gold

From the review:
"As Arcam points out in the supporting literature, the dCS RingDAC remains one of the most sophisticated converters available, however technology waits for no man and - quote - 'we have found sonically more desirable technologies that enable better performing players'. It is this 'sonically more desirable technology' that is the driving force for the CD33T.
The core of the new player is a D/A converter from Scottish IC manufacturer Wolfson Microelectronics, a brand whose designs have a strong audiophile reputation. The flagship WM8740 is a delta sigma design...."

Two years later the 'unique' Ring Dac is already history.The hyperbole employed "technology waits for no one'' "we have found sonically more desirable technologies" is quite amusing.

Reading these reviews one would come to the conclusion that the later Arcam
models like the Diva CD192 (24/192 UPSAMPLING,4 x Wolfson WM8740 DACs per channel,CD Text, CD-R and CD-RW compatible) have in the words of the manufacturer 'sonically more desirable technology'.
A few months ago I got my Arcam CD192 (demo stock.virtually new.Not one little scratch or blemish)for 45K.
In the light of all these facts I would consider a price tag of 65K on the Arcam CD23T(circa 2001) astronomically expensive.
Just my opinion.I may be missing something.The FMJ moniker may be responsible for the higher price....

 

[square_wave]

Reading these reviews one would come to the conclusion that the later Arcam
models like the Diva CD192 (24/192 UPSAMPLING,4 x Wolfson WM8740 DACs per channel,CD Text, CD-R and CD-RW compatible) have in the words of the manufacturer 'sonically more desirable technology'.
A few months ago I got my Arcam CD192 (demo stock.virtually new.Not one little scratch or blemish)for 45K.
In the light of all these facts I would consider a price tag of 65K on the Arcam CD23T(circa 2001) astronomically expensive.
Just my opinion.I may be missing something.The FMJ moniker may be responsible for the higher price....

If you can, please try and listen to both and you will know

 

[venkatcr]

We have folks here who have had extensive or more experience with both the players in question.

These folks are welcome to write about their experience. At the end of the day, the OP has to make his decision after reading all posts.

Cheers

 

[ajay124]

If you can, please try and listen to both and you will know

Ultimately that's what it comes down to.To be absolutely factual I would have to listen to FMJ CD23T,CD33T,CD17,CD37,Diva 73,CA 840C in my set up to be able to compare them with the CD192.And even then,what I personally like,would hold true for my ears, my room and my equipment.Similarly after auditioning all these CDP's in their set up Square_Wave,Dr.Bass,Asit may come to different conclusions.
When we buy something without a home audition we are essentially running blind,and therefore Mitul,the proof of the pudding will only be known after you have paid for and eaten it for a couple of weeks.
A lot of people in international forums seem to be using the Rega Apollo.They seem to hold it in high regard.Personally I don't like drawer loading or slot loading and would love to try a top loading CDP.At its Singapore price of 35-40K,it seems like a good option,although the mystery of the Indian launch is yet to be resolved.I have been told that the SQ is very good,but some units develop errors in reading CD's after some time.Also it takes a little longer to read and load CD's.Add to that the fact,that getting after sales on something bought from Singapore or Kl would have been practically impossible.These were the tipping point for me in favor of the Arcam and I am happy with my choice.Again opinions....one can only know the truth after extensively listening to a product.

 

[mitul mehta]

Finally i have audition of both players i have decided to buy cambridge audio 840C its just amazing.