CD Player Arcam FMJ CD23T CD Player or Cambridge Audio 840C

[mitul mehta]

Hi

Everybody.

Can anybody suggest which CD player is better (Arcam FMJ CD23T or Cambridge audio 840C upsampling) I have this two choice. My kind of music is more of classical and hindi gazals. After using CA 540C i like detail music and heard from some one that 840C is best. I had second opinion that the DAC quality of Arcam CD23T is best. Friends pls suggest to which is better and what to buy..

 

[square_wave]

The Arcam any day !

 

[venkatcr]

Send a PM to Asit as he has first hand experience on one or both of these products. I would not write off either - both are good.

Cheers

 

[mitul mehta]

Thanks friends

I have send PM to asit and will get reply......

 

[MassiSandage]

Hey all,
was wondering if you could give some advice to a cdp that would likely fit the below set up. i've recently purchase a 5.1 set up. Tannoys rev signature series with a creek destiny amp.lacking a cdp to complete the set up. i had auditioned the cyrus 8se previously and was very much impressed. but with a 3k price tag, i was wondering if there were other cdps i could consider.

 

[venkatcr]

....with a creek destiny amp.lacking a cdp to complete the set up. i had auditioned the cyrus 8se previously and was very much impressed. but with a 3k price tag, i was wondering if there were other cdps i could consider.

Why don't you look at the Creek Destiny CD player itself, or their Evolution?

Another good option would be the ERC1 from Emotiva. You can look up ERC1 at Emotiva's website.

The Evolution 2 from Creek has good specs:

Frequency Response: 1Hz - 20Khz 0.25dB
Output Level: 2.0v RMS @ 1Khz 0dB
Output Impedance: 50 Ohm, min load 1 Ohm
DAC Type: 24bit - 192Khz Burr-Brown Delta-Sigma
Total Harmonic Distortion: <0.0008% @ 1Khz, 0dB
THD + Noise: > -97dB
Dynamic Range: >100dB

Cheers

 

[Asit]

Hi Mitul,

I shall reply later in the day or in the evening. I hope it's not too late by then .

Regards
Asit

 

[mitul mehta]

no probs asit...........if you can call me up it will be a great favour for me......

 

[Asit]

Hi Mitul,

I am sorry I could not call you or write any earlier. Just got home from work. If you want to discuss, I will give you a call some time tomorrow, and I will write my impressions right now.

The Arcam FMJ CD 23T is not one of their current players (the current ones are FMJ CD 17 and CD 37). So you must be considering it as an used piece. In its day (2001-2004 I think) it was regarded a very very good product and cost about USD 2500 or thereabouts. It was reportedly very very detailed and at the same time smooth. This CDP was built when Arcam already made a name for themselves for making CDPs from ground level up. Unfortunately I do not think I ever listened to this particular player, but I have heard a few of the Arcam CDPs and I sort of know their house sound. Some people BTW find the general Arcam sound a bit bland and un-involving, a matter of personal taste, I guess. Arcam is known for clean sounding electronics, but you may not get a lot of body and dynamics, but that's only a very general comment. I hear that the current CD37 has broken the trend and sounds a bit different and more exciting, but again I have not heard the CD37 either. The most recent Arcam CDPs (discontinued perhaps a couple of years ago) I have heard are the CD 192 and CD 73 (from the Diva series). Both of them are very decent players with the 192 clearly the better and much more expensive one. One thing for certain, an Arcam would never be offensive in the audio presentation, they would always produce a reasonably balanced and 'polished' kind of sound, for the lack of better words.

Cambridge Audio is known as a budget brand and they have VFM image at a lowish cost. However, their 740c (around USD 1000) and 840c (USD 1600) are wonderful products at the price point they go for and perhaps a bit more. I own the 740c and have heard the 840c. There is a serious difference between the 640c (whichever version) and the 740c/840c so much so that you may doubt if they are from the same brand. Some people may not like them (I mean the 740c and the 840c) because of the image of CA as a brand, but I know very few people who have actually given these CDPs a serious listen and not liked them. I have paired my CDP with an amp which is a few times the price of the CDP, and equivalent of my speakers (very old) would be many times the cost of the CDP, and I am happy, because compared to many systems I have heard in the last couple of years (some with quite expensive transport and DAC or CDP) I do not think I am missing that much. It also could be that my listening ears are not good enough or I am plain simple biased. But I am giving you my honest opinion. I am aware that as a budget brand, all their components are not of audiophile standards, for example inside the 740c cabinet some of the opamps and caps could be improved very easily (and some day I'd mod these up), but it has a good power supply, a reasonably reliable transport for the price and 2 good Wolfson DACs (8740), and of course a good upsampling design (24bit/384kHz). The 840c employs a very similar, if not the same, design with better components (DACs are different) and balanced inputs.

The rest of the system is equally important because synergy cannot be ignored. Synergy is not a cliched stuff.

Sorry, got dragged away by my wife for dinner at this point .

Anyway, your amp and speakers have to complement the sound your source is producing. My advice would be to audition these CDPs (both the Arcam and the CA 840c) with your amp and speakers and see if they sound satisfactory to your ears. I have done a bit of experimentation with my CDPs positioning (isolation is a big issue with all sources) and have given a stable power source and good power cord with excellent connectors.

To cut the long story short, listen to both CDPs in your system. The Arcam is an established mid-level CDP, but it is got to be an used piece (given the model no.) and see if it's reading CDs properly and what is the asking price. On the other hand, CA 740c/840c CDPs despite their budget brand name and budget/midlevel prices are a bit better than their prices and image may suggest (keep in mind there is huge difference between the 640c even if it uses the same DAC chip, albeit only one, and no upscaling). if you treat them respectfully, that is, couple them with good amp and speakers, give them a good base, good interconnects (I have experimented a lot from silver cables to the run-of-the mill copper cables) and power cords, they may just satisfy you.

Regards.

 

[ajay124]

Cyrus CD 8X would be another option.
Cyrus Audio
A few months ago I was looking for this CDP to hook up to my Cyrus 8VS2 Amp.I finally located 12-18 months old,traded-in units in good condition,at HIFI Bargain,Singapore.Price was 1200SGD.App 36K.
(HIFI Bargain,KEC Sound System Private Limited:1 Coleman Street,The Adelphi,Singapore +65 65643188)
Did not go for the CDP as I sold my Cyrus (wonderful!) amp and moved on to a Bryston Pre/Power.
I have not heard the 8X CDP but based on my experience with the 8VS2 and 6VS2 Amps I believe that in the 40K range it would be great VFM.
Aesthetically,Cyrus products with their 'shoebox' look match well only with other Cyrus products.Personally I really like the looks/build quality/sound.Perfect for pairing with bookshelf/standmounts in a sub 200 sq feet room!
*I am using the ARCAM CD192 with my VA Beethoven Baby Grand speakers and Bryston BP6/3B SST and the Arcam CDP holds up really well.Extremely musical and refined sound.Effortlessly handles the dynamics of huge symphony orchestras.Last nights performance of Beethovens 9th Symphony at 12'0'clock volume is still fresh in my mind!I have simplified auditioning hifi equipment down to listening to a full movement/complete symphony of Beethoven or Mahler.If the product in question can handle 75-150 musicians orchestral music then it should be able to handle everything else.

 

[square_wave]

My comments are based on this particular player. Arcam FMJ CD 23T. I have extensive experience with this player. This player is an extremely resolving machine. It retrives details from music without sounding tizzy or bright. They key to make this player work is to have an extremely detailed amp and loudspeaker down the chain. Else the player can sound bland.It is not a plug in and forget cd player. Just like all resolving hifi gear, it needs careful matching to associated electronics. The cd player demands electronics of the same resolving level as itself. This is how electronics need to be designed.

The CA is quite the opposite. I somehow do not like CA players. Especially their higher end models. Particularly when paired with highly revealing speakers and electronics. I have heard the CA players with green mountain audio and ATC loudspeakers. These are some of the most revealing loudspeakers around. The players have a very hifi sound to them. Some folks call this phenomenon "details" ! With highly revealing associated gear, they sound bright. With rolled off loudspeakers, they are a blessing in disguise.

I find their budget cd players like the 640c to be a more balanced player at their pricepoint.

At this budget level, you should be looking at the Rega appollo player too.

 

[Asit]

Hi Vinny,

I am really surprised to read your report on the CA 740c/840c (I do not know which one you heard). The 740c is NOT generally bright in my system. You have indirectly suggested that my speakers are not revealing enough and they perhaps roll off, or I am finding the relative brightness as a sign of details, or the player's "hi-fi" sounding pleases me. Let me tell you very frankly that I am past those stages some 20 years ago. In those days there was no Internet, fortunately. Otherwise, I'd have been ashamed of my own writings during the formative 5-6 initial years of my serious involvement in this hobby. I have never said this in this forum, but I think it's time to say that I have heard much more than you can imagine (mostly due to my 14 years staying abroad in US and Europe where opportunities were almost unlimited and now during my visits abroad) although I tend not to brag about it.

But even then I will not rule out the possibility that my hearing abilities are limited. And that is why I seek opinions of others as they come, visit me and hear the system. Some very experienced people share the view that I will have to spend now quite a lot to get speakers equivalent of these. If someday you have a chance to visit Kolkata, please do pay a visit and I'd be eager to know your opinion.

About "rolling off", let me say this: Until recently Canton was using basically the same tweeters (Aluminium-Manganese) in some of their speakers, so if you chance upon a relatively high end modern Canton (from the Ergo or Karat series or even better their reference line) you will have a good idea about the "rolling off" (or the lack of it) you mentioned. I can give you my opinion: these are some of the best tweeters I have heard, very detailed, airy and above all musical, not rolled off. They can sound bright, at times very bright, with poor (mostly Indian) recordings. I have already mentioned or hinted in my previous post that the CAs being discussed do NOT have all audiophile grade components and as a result they may not always sound as 'polished' as the Arcam. But I do not know if that is necessarily a good thing. As I have mentioned elsewhere a Bengali Baul folk singing should sound bright, because that's what it is and that's what I get in my system when I play that kind of music. But some folks may like to have that sound slightly tamed down, it really depends on one's musical appreciation too.

I have seen you mentioning about imaging in some other thread where you wrote that any bulk material between speakers would harm imaging. True, but not completely. Depends on the speakers. For example, my speakers have felt covering over the whole baffle, something I have never seen in any modern speaker. This does wonders for imaging. Even when I had my speakers in the cabinets, the imaging and instrument separation did not substantially suffer (but openness and bass suffered). Ask Pratim (member) and Sangram/cranky (ex-member) who heard my speakers in that configuration. Both were actually stunned to hear my speakers for the first time (by then they already own some very highly praised speakers). And believe me, I hate the so-called 'hi-fi' sound and this is a reason I have a problem with many speakers/systems I hear in India now.

We all come with our baggage. If you do not like CAs, I have no problem with that. But kindly do not base part of the argument on stuff you may not have any idea about.

It may sound like I am defending my speakers. Not at all. Actually I am making an argument for the CAs, with the hope that people can have an open mind about everything. You probably will faint at the idea of pairing the CA with a silver cable. Yes, I have done that too in the recent past .

I hope the OP forgives me for going slightly off-topic. But one cannot judge an isolated piece of equipment, it is always judged in synergy with the other equipments in your chain.

Regards.

 

[square_wave]

Hi Asit,

My apologies to you if my post seemed directed at you. Not intended

Whatever I mentioned in my post is a direct result of my experience with the 840c, 640c and the arcam CD 23. To me the 840c and 640c sounded bright through the ATC and Green mountain audio speakers. They sound extremely detailed but if you listen closer, there is a bit of hardness in the details. There is a sheen in the treble. In fact I was having a similar conversation about this phenomenon with a senior audiophile on this forum (he has extensive experience with hi-end Dacs and sources). He cited a similar experience. I do not want to drag his name into this thread.

I have heard the Arcam cd23 in some really transparent systems and found them to be extremely revealing and resolving very less hardness or sheen in the highs. The key words are organic and resolving. I find this quality more in the Arcam than the 840C. The 840C to me travels in a different direction.

If you check out audiogon chat rooms, you will find that the 840c is a hate it or love it cd player. Many have similar experience as me. Some love it to death.

It is true that I do not even know the OPs associated gear or what he is looking for. The player may actually work for him.

I guess it is a very system / personal thing. If it works for someone, it works for him. Lets rest it at that

 

[odyssey]

Hi Vinny,


I have seen you mentioning about imaging in some other thread where you wrote that any bulk material between speakers would harm imaging. True, but not completely. Depends on the speakers. For example, my speakers have felt covering over the whole baffle, something I have never seen in any modern speaker. This does wonders for imaging.



Regards.

Hi Asit
I am not sure what Vinny meant on the imaging, however IME, the felt or similar material used around tweeters or midrange units tend to give great imaging. Vinny might have been referring to the space between a set of loudspeakers and not drivers. In fact, this is a cheap tweak that everyone can try on the tweeter - some sort of felt ring around them to reduce diffraction - ends up increasing focus and imaging.

cheers

 

[Dr.Bass]

Interestingly, I too have heard both the players being considered by the OP.
To me there is no competition. Arcam is in a different league altogether.
Unlike square_wave (who has heard it sound both good and bland), I have never found it sounding bland (or may be I like bland sound). I have always found it to supremely engaging, tonally superb, great dynamics. A very complete sounding machine.

CA, especially the 840C is...ummm...it is not my cup of tea. It has a zip in the mids and tizz in the highs which makes it sound extremely fast and detailed. To me both the speed and the detail sounds somewhat artificial. The bass is articulate but does not have the body I would like to hear in an expensive machine like that. It doesnt mean I like slow lazy sounding machine. I love the NAIM and Linn for exactly the same reason...speed and rhythm. But they present it as one. The do the complete PRAT phenomenon very well and present them as one. This makes them sound exceptionally fluent. Whereas the CA sounds like a machine which is in a hurry, it is not fluent, it is only speaking very fast. Apart from this, extra tizz, ting and sheen in the mids to highs affects the instrumental tones and vocals in a way that they sound somewhat electronic.

It may work well in another setup where the overall synergy with this player is coming out great. But on a highly neutral setup its weaknesses will come through. One of the pointer is Audiogon. It is littered with CA players for sale, even though only recently CA has started doing well in the CDP market.

It is really difficult to be honest as well as not offend someone's sentiments. I do not know how to handle this well...really but I just posted what I heard. If one takes it in that view, it may seem like a more acceptable post.

 

[square_wave]

Dr Bass,

I never said the cd 23 is bland. In a system which cannot do justice to the players natural resolving capabilities it can sound a bit bland because the player does not do anything artificial. This is a good quality in my books

@ Asit, Odyssey,
Yes I was talking about bulky paraphernalia in between loudspeakers and also proximity to walls which affect imaging. Material used around tweeters to combat diffraction is a different matter altogether.

 

[psychotropic]

I have heard the 840C in the house of a friend, (with a primare amp and ProAc speakers), and it's a very very nice sounding CD player. I have no idea of the Arcam, but the owner of this setup is someone very knowledgeable and he was mentioning that the 840C is a true giant killer and that he picked it over several much more expensive CD players he had auditioned.

 

[square_wave]

I have heard the 840C in the house of a friend, (with a primare amp and ProAc speakers), and it's a very very nice sounding CD player. I have no idea of the Arcam, but the owner of this setup is someone very knowledgeable and he was mentioning that the 840C is a true giant killer and that he picked it over several much more expensive CD players he had auditioned.

Giant killer was the key word being used all over the Audiogon and other forums for this player for a long time.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Dr Bass,

I never said the cd 23 is bland. In a system which cannot do justice to the players natural resolving capabilities it can sound a bit bland because the player does not do anything artificial. This is a good quality in my books

yea, I know what you mean. May be I always heard it in a proper setup.

 

[psychotropic]

hehe ya i know how that works, but this person is someone who knows his audio and has been dabbling in hi fi / audiophilia for a couple of decades, not likely to be saying that because he saw it on some forums.

Giant killer was the key word being used all over the Audiogon and other forums for this player for a long time.